Consumerism & Religion

[Totenkopf]

C'mon, Web, you're going over the top. You talk like that "church" (or any outfit, really) operates in a vacuum with no other competing ideas saturating these same kids consciousnesses. Pop culture overwhelms most kids awareness. Also, given that many kids now have really short attention spans because of the nature of modern media, it's unlikely these churches are going to be able to lure and keep these "poor gullible children"

in their nefarious grip.

[Jae Onasi]

Awwww, that's nice. But I seem to recall when I was 5, I would do anything for candy. And I would do whatever I was told to get candy. Sit still mow the lawn, pull a weed, help mom. Children are people pleasers, not thought provoking geniuses, and they are people pleasers who want candy and will do whatever it takes to get it. Don't believe me? Look up Halloween.

That would apply if the kids we were serving were 5. They're teens. They know the difference between a bribe and genuine charity.

 

Christ was generous and showed people love because he felt it was the right thing to do. He didn't do it to force "God's Love", he didn't do it to convert people, he did it because he felt it was good to do so.

So do we. They're not required to convert, ever. They're not even required to stay through the message, ever. They can come and go at any time. You're assuming we're doing this because we want another convert notch on our belts or member in our church to fill the coffers. That is a wrong assumption. Those of us who are volunteering do it because we genuinely care about what happens to these kids, some of whom desperately need something good in their lives so that they don't commit suicide, or turn to alcohol, drugs, gangs, or self-destructive behaviors to try to fill the oppressive emptiness in their hearts and lives.

 

I'm not condemning your charity work. I'm condemning the luring of children who don't know better into something they don't understand.

Give them a little credit--I'm sure you knew what you thought you wanted to know about religion by your teens.

Someone's got a persecution complex that's for sure. You want to help, go right ahead, but don't tie your help to belief in Christ. I know how so many of these things work as I've seen them in action, you give out food, you build a home....if the person will consider becoming Christian. From aid missions to Africa to soup kitchens, there's always an overtone of "you should love Jesus for this help we're giving you."

You're being intolerant of my faith in telling me I should turn my back on that faith in order to do good works. You're also missing the point of most charity, which is to share the love, the bounty of food/medicine/knowledge (in the case of teachers and medical people who volunteer at mission schools or hospitals). There are Baptist and other Christian charity hospitals in Muslim countries who are not allowed by law in those countries to say a single word about Christianity. They're there because they are inspired by Christ's love and care for the sick and poor and want to follow that example, and be an outward expression of that love. They see a desperate need there, and they fill that need. I'm happy to tie my help to Christ, who is the ultimate inspiration for a loving life. Christ fed the poor, healed the sick, showed us the way to love. How else do we show people that same example except by DOING those same kinds of things? If they were forced to convert, if they were forced even to listen to the message, you _might_ have a point. Since we require neither, your point does not stand. They're staying because they want to.

 

So don't get on your high-horse and preach about how I'm so horrible for whatever I may or may not do. All I'm objecting to is tying the string of religion to what otherwise would be simple generosity or altruism.

You were the one being 'preachy' about how good works should be done, and putting the 'no religion allowed' requirement on it. I was challenging you and anyone else in this thread to get out there and actually do some good works, with or without religion as you desire. Then you can come in here and be judgmental if you'd like. I happen to think the message of Christianity, for whatever warts and faults you think it has, still has an underlying core of goodness to it that changes people's lives for the better. Of course I'm going to tell them about that if they ask. I'm not going to beat them over the head with it. We don't kick them out if they don't want to stay for the message. We don't kick them out if they're another faith or no faith at all. We don't kick them out if they dress funny, drink, smoke, or are hooked on drugs (though for obvious reasons, these illegal activities are not allowed at our church), are gay, straight, bi, or have a smurf fetish. We take them in and love them as they are.

 

You indicated that you might have done some good things for your community. What have you done?

 

My call to action for anyone reading here stands. If you're not already doing something to help your community, for whatever reason, find something you like to do or are good at, and share with your community. You don't have to do it for religion if you don't want. Do it because the President or someone important in your life inspired you. Do it because people like King, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, or some other paragon of generosity inspires you. It doesn't have to be a big thing. It can be as simple as helping shelve books at the library, filling grocery bags at the local food pantry, volunteering at your local hospital, helping man the phone banks for the MDA telethon, participating in fundraising activities for worthy charities, helping in literacy programs, or working at after school programs helping kids with homework, teaching them music or sports, or any number of things.

 

And there's plenty of Media promoting it, there are almost a dozen radio stations in my home town that are religious and fairly positive, except the fire+brimstone Catholic station. I'm sure the whole burning in hell, hating on gays and half a dozen other things aren't helping the Church's image in this day and age.

A dozen religious stations? I'm stunned. I've never heard of that many in an area before, and I live in between two major metropolitan areas.

 

If you want to lure adults in? Great, they can understand how to make those kinds of decisions. It's only luring in children I have qualms with.

So you're telling me that at 16 you didn't know the difference between a bribe and charity? My 11 year old has that figured out. We've never had any complaints about our program from any of the hundreds of parents involved accusing us of luring or bribing kids in. There might be a die-hard antitheist or person of some other faith who won't allow their kids to set foot in our door for fear that we'll somehow corrupt them with goodness, but that's the parents' prerogative to deny permission for their kids to go to youth group.

 

What they do AFTER they get you in is another story, it can be good, it can be bad, it's still a bribe, or a lure, what I am, for the last time, objecting to, is targeting children.

These teens are still free to come an go, believe or not believe. No strings attached. I know that's hard for you to believe.

[Web Rider]

Absolutely target the children. Let them know they are not all fire and brimstone. Let them know that not all of them are hypocritical, before they get to the stage where you are Web. Where you think that churches judge. By the time they get your age, they have pretty well made up their minds that all of them are like that. Expose them to the other view before they become indoctrinated into the hate the church attitude.

Exposing kids to the not-evils of the Church and attempting to convert them are two different things. Yes I don't like organized religion, but that's because I've experienced the short end of a lot of it.

 

Edited to add: You mentioned the religious stations. How many of those stations play music the kids would like?

I know there are plenty of radio stations that are harshly critical of the church. They tend to play the music the kids like. So a kid isn't likely to listen to a station that plays mostly Christian music. More likely they are going to listen to the radio station that their friends listen to.

None, but then there are no "pop music" stations in that town, so it's hardly surprising. I'm sure the nearby city has more options, but I'm not generally listening to them.

 

...teens...

 

Well I guess there's the problem then. I thought you were talking about actual little kids, a practice I've seen, so that's what I figured you meant. Teens are another story and IMO, fair game.

 

I'm too tired to address the charity part with a full head, I'll get back to it tomorrow.

[Tommycat]

For the record, I call anyone under 20 a kid. Kids still legally required to stay with their parents(or legal guardian) are children. I'm sure as I age, that "kid" age will creep up.

 

So there are no music stations in your town? Or just no "Pop Music" stations. What music do they play?

 

And Jae, I've seen a few places where they have lots of Christian stations(I used to do consulting all over the US and drove darn near everywhere). Most have the same station broadcast at two frequencies. Major cities however generally have a few hard to tune in stations(where their signal is kinda overlapped by another station that boosts their power output significantly).

 

And any children that are not old enough to make the distinction on their own would kinda have to bring their parents. I mean how would they get there.

 

Note: Churches are not indoctrination centers. I mean most atheists I know used to be church goers.

 

as for Mormons, I think you've been snowed by the media. Mormons around here are not the type to lock the doors and refuse to let you leave. Maybe you live in a wierder place than me...

[Darth Avlectus]

Hmm. Well, I am not a religious person. In fact, I am talked down upon by extended family because I am not an active church goer, and for the jewish side of my family, temple. I have partaken in some Native American rituals. I am spiritual, not religious. Though I do believe the two end up clumped together and hence why they do seem to be used interchangeably. Just feel a need to make that distinction.

 

I would daresay, though, that where society exerts great influence, our fundamental values and universal truths MUST, at some point, shine through that to reach the people of society. What good is progress if you forget the principles and such, nay the very foundation upon which you came to view the world in the first place? Upon which your own society was built?

 

One negative example where religion and consumerism come together is the holidays and their being overly corporatized. If I'm not mistaken, we talk about that here on LF every Christmas. It has become about the gifts more than the thoughts of perpetual generosity.

 

However, I have gone to conventions like anime/comic conventions and seen talented local artists making comics and mangas of the bible and many of its lessons. In a sense it all depends how it is used. However, where I see kids getting into it, it makes one wonder whether the magic of it all is what is conveyed, or how it is conveyed. Some cases, I even see young adults with little exposure to it, now suddenly enveloped in it. For certain I know this, it is not the belief system itself where the bad comes from, it is the people in it. It does a heart good, though, to hear them say the act of doing kindness and knowing that you are helping is reward enough; that they don't need a reward. Such things cannot be bought. Though people will pay greatly for it.

 

 

In general, if some level of adaptation is needed to survive with times and changes, I'd rather it survive than no. Even if I disagree intensely with whatever is being preached ad-nauseum, I support the idea that such things are available.

 

"Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. --Michael Savage

 

I try not to get too specific about god. For the reason that I do not wish to limit and shape god in my image or in other ways. If god is really such a grand being.

 

Personally, there is also a great lesson that can be applied in all aspects of life: It takes a great deal of effort more to create rather than destroy.

[Web Rider]

So there are no music stations in your town? Or just no "Pop Music" stations. What music do they play?

Country and oldies rock.

 

Note: Churches are not indoctrination centers. I mean most atheists I know used to be church goers.

Not me says I.

 

as for Mormons, I think you've been snowed by the media. Mormons around here are not the type to lock the doors and refuse to let you leave. Maybe you live in a wierder place than me...

 

Actually this was the experience in my home town when a family friend attempted to leave the religion. They weren't as bad as the Jehova's who were downright inhuman, but it certainly had strong tones of "you're not loved by this family as much now that you're not a Mormon."

[Jae Onasi]

Well I guess there's the problem then. I thought you were talking about actual little kids, a practice I've seen, so that's what I figured you meant. Teens are another story and IMO, fair game.

Ah, got it.

 

Any kids who are involved in our church have to have parent approval to be there--that's for the kids' protection as well as the church workers.

 

We have a family friend who left Mormonism for non-denominational evangelical Protestant. The Mormon church expressed sadness at losing him but weren't nasty to him.

[jrrtoken]

The problem that arises when attaching a cause or ideal to an act of generosity is that people will see it, and they will question your true intentions. Was the act done for pure altruism, or was it also done to purport one's personal agenda? By using ideals, any seemingly genuine act of kindness can come under question as simply trying to earn reputation for a group of a individuals.

[Jae Onasi]

The problem that arises when attaching a cause or ideal to an act of generosity is that people will see it, and they will question your true intentions. Was the act done for pure altruism, or was it also done to purport one's personal agenda? By using ideals, any seemingly genuine act of kindness can come under question as simply trying to earn reputation for a group of a individuals.

That can be said of any altruistic act, no matter what cause (or lack thereof) it's attached to. If it's not done for a cause, people will question what you're getting out of it personally.

[Darth Avlectus]

So basically, you can't do anything without being accused of of acting like a greedy bastard? Mmm. Doesn't bother me. I used to try to do charitable stuff, but for one reason or another I was ostracized and criticized. People would say I was just doing it to cover up a wrong. Funny how these folks would play favorites and refuse to see the faults of their own.

 

Actions speak louder than words ever could. While it is possible to measure intent to a certain extent, I don't really know of any 100% reliable way to know what another's intentions are.

 

I also agree that teens are fair game. As are impressionable adults on the brink of some kind of failure.

 

EDIT: I also still do charitable stuff and donations, BTW. A bunch of cranky hypocrites didn't ruin that for me.