Experience Rewrite mod

[VarsityPuppet]

Has anyone ever thought of/created an experience rewrite mod for TSL?

 

If not, I will (or someone else could) attempt to do it. The game goes to level 50, but most people never get there (hssiss cave anyone?).

 

I propose that someone engineers a way to rewrite the experience, either by changing the base values and by adding more people to kill, more locks/mines, and just generally pumping more experience into the game.

 

With that in place though, the game would require a proper rebalancing of feats/powers/skills, and it could even be made compatible with Force Power mods. To me, it seems like one of those mods that HAS to be done.

[WraithPrince]

Why would you need more lvls? even at the fair lvling pass you pretty much annialate the last parts of the game. if anything they need to get lowered a tiny bit.

[VarsityPuppet]

You missed the point. The game goes up to level 50. Adjust EVERYTHING so that 1: You can make it to 50 in-game, and 2: You don't just run around and slaughter everything.

 

Admittedly, it is more work than lowering the number of levels, but since when have limitations ever been fun?

[vanir]

One of my favourite mods did this although I tweaked it a bit. Paragon's d20 mod introduced the SW RPG table top rules to TSL and restructured the experience level progression so you got a prestige class at lvl 25 and made it to lvl 45 or more by game completion.

He argued that the abilities gained by level were undercut to the level progression of the tabletop game, so roughly worth two levels for each level in tabletop RPG.

He also introduced the Control, Sense and Alter feat requirements for learning force powers. Each force power is related to one or more of these feats, which you require first to learn that power...you get access to the three base feats at different levels depending on class.

 

For example Force Push is an Alter feat requirement. Sentinels get access at lvl 1, Consulars at lvl 6 and Guardians at lvl 12. Force Aura is a Control feat requirement, Guardians get access at lvl 1, Sentinels at lvl 6 and Consulars at lvl 12. This is based on the d20 mechanics for using Force powers and advancing in their use.

 

So whilst you get to much higher levels using his Mod, your progression in the use of the Force requires more levels to become very comprehensive. Before medium levels the three Jedi classes are very different in nature and have very different themes in Force power selection, which is straight from the tabletop RPGs. Jedi Masters however (level 15 and above) tend to even out more in their abilities with the Force.

 

He also restructured creature encounter difficulties.

 

I further tweaked his mod, since I had a large SW RPG gaming group years ago and had my own stamp to put on it. I made the Force progression even more like the tabletop RPG. The new Control, Sense and Alter feats (Force feats or powers using Force power slots), I gave for free by an additional Force power slot at lvl 1, 6 and 12. The problem here is because the PC begins at level 2 he misses out on two necessary Force power slots and can't choose any powers at lvl 2 unless you use the save game editor to award two extra powers. A release version I would give 3 Force slots at lvl 2 and you would have to put up with recruited Jedi not being able to choose powers until 2nd level (so that the power restrictions do not get breached by the savegame editor and we keep everything in game rules).

 

In my version the Control, Sense and Alter feats are combined for different effects. For Force Lightning based powers Sense and Alter are required (only Consular can do this by lvl 6, the others need to be lvl 12). For healing based powers Control and Sense are required (Guardians lvl 6 and others lvl 12). Control Mind requires all three disciplines, so any Jedi must be at least lvl 12. But simple powers like Force Aura, Fear, Force Push or Force Choke only require a single discipline so these are the ones the Jedi classes have access to from lvl 1-6. This is all straight from the SW RPG Sourcebooks and really expands the learning of Force powers in game.

It is a fact some Jedi classes may not be able to choose any powers at level up once or twice, and will only increase in combat stats but that is the nature of this type of canon and I think it still works very hard to bring a realistic Force progression to the Jedi classes, plus you're going to be a level or two higher anyway through the game on average. You will never be disadvantaged in use of the Force, but for example the Jedi Sentinel will definitely rely more on skills use than other abilities at lower levels, where the Guardian is a definite combat class and the Consular can do scary things with the force very quickly.

 

My tweak I also restructured the level progression so that advancement was more staggered, it took longer to get to level 20 than to go from there to level 40 and I kept the level 15 prestige classing. This is basically because I wanted to keep prestige classing within the same timespan of the game plot progression, and raising the level requirement just meant you were level 25 instead of level 15 early on in your adventures. In my game you're about level 17 when you prestige to a Master/Sith class and this is a good time for Jedi recruitment among your companions, I figured you should be a Master for this.

I also beefed up the generic stats on the major villains a bit and had another look at the encounter difficulties.

 

Since then though what I've found is the higher levels are really outside the scope of the game itelf. Even thought the caps are higher, it becomes a hack and slash affair and loses a lot of its story when you up the level progression. I've since cut it back down so that my level progression is only 1-2 levels ahead of the standard game through the course of advancement.

I do recommend have a play of crazy level progression just to have some fun with lots of feats and force powers, you get the real sense of being a Jedi Master but firstly you spend half the game levelling up and secondly even where the creature encounters are equivalent in hit dice to you, the sheer breadth of choices in powers, feats and abilities to use makes you totally overpowered and reduces all challenge to less than zero. If you get killed it will be because you ran out of comparative health reserves and nothing to do with strategy, even the most difficult combats you face will be solely hack and slash and contain no strategy, because round by round you just pick the best power or ability, activate it and keep pressing the attack button.

 

The last thing I did was reintroduce the attack tables by class, so that warrior classes, scout types and non-combat classes have their respective attack tables, although at Master/Prestige level class attack advancement returns to warrior tables for all classes. This is again to reflect the distinct themes at lower levels of the Jedi and other classes, which even out among Jedi Masters and Sith classes.

 

In conclusion I found a more interesting expansion of Jedi advancement to come in extrapolation of learning the Force, and wound up cutting back on experience level advancement to keep the game more fun.

 

As has been said, if anything there would be more challenge and thus more adventure, cutting it back further. The stock game leaves the PC overpowered as it is, an 8yr old on his first play could walk through the game using hack and slash and no idea of what's going on and beat every encounter and every Sith Lord, and never even get to appreciate the story. It has long been said TSL was way too easy and the villains no challenge at all, and had nothing like the story value of K1.

[VarsityPuppet]

I did like the idea of running around as a Jedi God... but

 

This mod of yours sounds intriguing... could you send it to me perhaps, or is there anywhere to download it from?

[vanir]

I'm play testing some final changes now and waiting to hear back from the original mod author, since I want to publicly re-release my tweaked version (I'm only really using his tlk.dlg script, if I wrote a new one I'd just be scripting the same lines).

He may not be contactable and if this is the case I'll just give credits for the original mod and go ahead and re-release it anyway, since it was not an original idea on either of our parts, the only part of his mod I'm using was taken directly from the RPG sourcebooks (though it was his idea to make a mod based on them).

 

None of his new equipment or 2da editing is being used (doing my own 2da edits to reflect my tweaks, which I think are even closer to the tabletop system), so I figure there shouldn't be any dramas over it. Still it'd be nice to hear from him after all these years and get a blessing. In any case I want to finish the current play test, then I'll package the mod and upload to filefront.

 

Somewhere along the way I will need to do a Patcher turorial. Better for all current mods to have patcher 2da editing I think, considering I'd be surprised if anyone who d/l mods these days doesn't already have more than a few installed already.

[VarsityPuppet]

You'll have my dL for sure. Though, I may end up tweaking a bit myself... naturally.

 

If there's any grunt work I can do to help you out (for this or future mods), let me know and I'll be glad to assist.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

I miss Paragon too... we rarely agreed 100% on anything, but he was very intelligent, and passionate - qualities I respect and admire.

 

It would be good if you heard for him - getting permission is nice and the right the thing to do (if possible), but contacting him would be worth it.

 

@VarsityPuppet - you are looking for a combination of Beancounter's Hardcore Mod and Achilles' Rebalance... with some extra feat-gaining/forcepowers?

 

I do not have Bean's or Achilles mods atm, but Achilles is active here, and I think he still hosts his mods - they are excellent.

 

There is a mod on FF for gaining extra force powers at level up, and one for extra feats.

 

The number is important to you, what level you are - or is getting all of the possible trinkets what you are after?

[VarsityPuppet]

My main concern was level number. There's just something about being a level 50 Jedi Weapons Master that really makes my day... maybe its unleashing unopposed slaughter upon the masses.

 

But what I was subtly hinting at is a much bigger monster.

It simply wouldn't be enough to make enemies tougher and experience more plentiful only to make it to level 50. Alone it is somewhat pointless, but imagine if you coupled it with various other mods? More force powers, more feats, perhaps more classes, more quests, more planets. It would require an amazingly talented team and a TON of work to pull off, but then kotor 2 could more likely fit its level 50 quota.

 

Or vanir's mod would work too.

[Achilles]

but Achilles is active here, and I think he still hosts his mods - they are excellent.

Gracias

 

Actually, I'm in the process of tweaking the rebalance mod to make it a little less generous (I was easily at 30-35 by the end of the game and not only was it ridiculously easy, but any semblance of roleplay was long gone).

 

@OP: A couple of things to consider: Feats are hardcoded. You cannot adjust what they do, however you can adjust how many each class gets via featgain.2da (don't bother with the bonus feat column it won't do anything). Similarly, you can reduce the number of force powers each class gets, however you have to be careful how you tweak classpowergain.2da as having zeros in the wrong place can cause the game to stop working (i.e. hard crashes when trying level up, etc). I don't remember the specifics as this was something that I worked around a long time ago.

 

If you simply want to be able to get to level 50, then simply tweak the values in crmod column in autobalance.2da until you get there (you may want to consider tweaking the other numbers down to avoid making boss fights impossible, etc).

 

Now for my unsolicited opinion: there really isn't much point in playing beyond level 30-32-ish. At that point you've received all the hardcoded force powers anyway (ala Crush Opposition, etc) so why bother? You mentioned making the game easier so that you're not overpowered. Okay, sounds great, but then why not just play until the game is over, as per usual? It really sounds like you're simply in love with the idea of level 50 and are willing to go to a lot of effort to make it a reality. By all means, knock yourself out. Don't let me stand in the way of "the dream", but really it doesn't sound like this is something you've thought all the way through.

 

Best of luck with your mod.

[vanir]

Okay the link is up in Taris Upper City forum (Tabletop RPG Tweak). Simply adjust the exptable.2da to suit your tastes but the more conservative change I made to it resulted from gameplay. It was fun running around at lvl 30 part way through the game, but like Achilles said all semblence of roleplay disappears. It's fun...once, then simply dry, pointless and depressing as the whole game turns into a hack and slash fest and nothing more.

 

I've been around TeamGizka again for the first time in years but nobody's seen Paragon. Oops, hang on I've got two messages...

....

...

Oh it's a project invitation expanding on the d20 mod much, much further. Sounds good. Nevermind. I completely forgot to mention previously it is actually restored content.

 

Okay Paragon says in his readme's any use of his material is fine. No restriction. I'd naturally liked to have contacted him but nevertheless I decided at the beginning no original creative material would be used (of course) and full creditation would be provided for the ideas behind the 2da edits and dlg script. These ideas did orginate with West End Games, reused by Wizards of the Coast d20 game when they bought the rights, but it was Paragon's excellent idea to put them into TSL. Also Shem was first to mod realistic visual effects, again simply a 2da edit using no original creative material, but an excellent idea with a universal application and again he deserves total credits for the idea.

But what are we all going to do, say to each other, "No you may not edit such and such in 2da files using Kotor Tool, or show anyone else how to, or pass on your completed edits because I thought of it first." I think a statement to the effect of, "nobody may reproduce this mod without my permission" when talking about common scripts or 2da edits is ridiculous and unrealistic. But certainly full creditation is more than deserved and just plain polite. And it is a perfectly reasonable statement to make where any graphics meshes or any original creative material is concerned, such as original scripting. But in fact the Control, Sense and Alter Force feats are restored content, not new additions (hence only required three simple lines in the dialog.tlk and a spells.2da edit). All the icons, etc are already there and TSL was originally designed to use them.

 

So formally, thank you Paragon, thank you Shem, you've really improved the game and future mods with your ideas. All the modders here have, but specific credits for this mod and my deepest appreciation belongs to these two.

[VarsityPuppet]

Gracias :)A couple of things to consider: Feats are hardcoded. You cannot adjust what they do, however you can adjust how many each class gets via featgain.2da (don't bother with the bonus feat column it won't do anything). Similarly, you can reduce the number of force powers each class gets, however you have to be careful how you tweak classpowergain.2da as having zeros in the wrong place can cause the game to stop working (i.e. hard crashes when trying level up, etc). I don't remember the specifics as this was something that I worked around a long time ago.

 

If you simply want to be able to get to level 50, then simply tweak the values in crmod column in autobalance.2da until you get there (you may want to consider tweaking the other numbers down to avoid making boss fights impossible, etc).

 

Now for my unsolicited opinion: there really isn't much point in playing beyond level 30-32-ish. At that point you've received all the hardcoded force powers anyway (ala Crush Opposition, etc) so why bother? You mentioned making the game easier so that you're not overpowered. Okay, sounds great, but then why not just play until the game is over, as per usual? It really sounds like you're simply in love with the idea of level 50 and are willing to go to a lot of effort to make it a reality. By all means, knock yourself out. Don't let me stand in the way of "the dream", but really it doesn't sound like this is something you've thought all the way through.

 

Best of luck with your mod.

 

Of course I haven't thought it through. That's why it's here in the form of mod requests instead of in the form of 2das.

 

Before I continue insisting on a level 50 mod though, I should probably play through and see if it's reasonable to make such a mod. It may adjust my naivete and general inexperience.

 

Speaking of which, off to the taris upper city forum.