MI: Special Edition - A comparison study

[parabolee]

I just think you are being way too apologetic. This just encourages their laziness.

 

I think he is just being pragmatic in his analysis. He is not making excuses for anything, just analysing why things may have been done the way we are speculating they have been done.

 

There is no amount of intellectualising why something is the way it is that will convince anyone that doesn't like it to think it's good. So it can't encourage laziness. It can only add to our understanding of how things were done. It will never change opinions on if it is good or not.

 

Nobody at Lucasarts is going to say "well a lot of people don't like the art, but we can just give out this detailed explanation of why it looks that way. People will understand and buy it anyway (and we can continue being lazy)".

 

If you want that ugly 3D modeled Guybrush face flying at your screen when he is fired out of a cannon, then fine, but I have higher standards. You want to leave it at that, please?

 

Again his explanation of why it may have been done like that does not suggest he want's it done like that (at least that's now how it seemed to me). And the hand drawn Guybrush flying at the screen looked like crap too.

 

 

If it was my call I would have gone for something more akin to Tiller's work in Monkey 3 too. Even though I don't like Guybrush's sprite in MI3. But I am pretty happy with this art style too (not including that hideous thing above, or the poster GB face).

[Nickelstein]

Never show that 3D pic ever again. EVER.

[parabolee]

Never show that 3D pic ever again. EVER.

 

LOL, I know. Put's into perspective what is truly bad though doesn't it?

[LordTrilobite]

What I also don't like about the new Guybrush are his pointy earrs.

[parabolee]

Well if anything, it all looks much nicer than EMI ever did, which I have finished multiple time, even though I hear some MI fans struggled to ever get a quarter of the way through.

 

EDIT: I now realise you were not addressing this point. However I will leave my post as originally posted, my second paragraph addresses your post correctly.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, Guybrush's sprite in CMI "looks" awesome as in the quality of the artwork. It just didn't look like Guybrush to me. He looks younger than he did in 2. 2 is my favourite and the Guybrush in CMI did not seem to match up with the Guybrush in MI2, in either style or writing. I love CMI, and I got used to Guybrush in it. But I have to say that I love that Tales seems more of a true continuation of MI2 Guybrush than CMI.

 

But yeah, EMI was not the best looking game, in fact it was kinda ugly. I have finished it twice and regret the second playthrough (last week) because I forgot how bad the last act was. Act 1&2 are fine to me (although they are not very funny).

 

But anyway we are getting derailed again, sorry. Back on track...

 

What does everyone think of the new Elaine? Animation side because I agree she looks stiff (not enough bend in her legs when she walks). I think she's cute. And I would presume she would not change in MI2:SE because they used the same sprite in MI1 VGA as MI2.

[Guy.brush]

I'm not apologetic. I'm just pragmatic.

There is a reason Disney stopped doing traditional 2D animation and it ain't cause noone wants to see it anymore. It's just a lot cheaper and easier to find people to work in 3D, especially when you have your studio set up the American way (which is lot's and lot's of departments and cheap newcomers)

I know it's Monkey Island and they should've spared no expenses, but we are still talking a niche audience game coming out in the current market reality here.

 

Even ILM has laid off Technical Directors that had worked there for over 7 years. The current policy is hire and fire and don't keep too many on staff.

Outsourcing to "Cheapistan" countries is a fact, I don't like it either.

All this considered, i still think it's quite nicely done and there is nothing in there that screams "cheap Indian/Singapore/Chinese plastic". If the majority of the work was done in Singapore, it's rather good, I've seen way worse **** coming from overseas.

 

Might the stiffness of the Elaine Marley sprites/the sprites overall have something to do with the fact that the walking animations need to conform to a bounding box of some sort? If her legs would move too much to the side it might look weird at a wall or something.

[parabolee]

I haven't seen her walk extensively, but her arms seem to suffer the same stubbiness as LeChuck's although not so much, but this is sort of alleviated by her having what appears to be a very short torso. Otherwise she looks good.

 

I think her arms are perfect anatomically. The arm on the right in the face forward one looks a little weird but that's because it's bent back in the elbow and hard to see.

 

And with LeChuck. I agree sis arms are no doubt a little short, not a lot mind. His hands are too big and that makes it look worse, but that's a style choice. They made him look stocky in the SE, which he never did in the original (just fat). The arms don't bother me though, deformed proportions can be a style choice (see anime/manga) and are suitable for his character anyway.

[parabolee]

Might the stiffness of the Elaine Marley sprites/the sprites overall have something to do with the fact that the walking animations need to conform to a bounding box of some sort? If her legs would move too much to the side it might look weird at a wall or something.

 

I don't think so. I think they they made her legs too straight as she walks so she looks lady-like. I mean it looks fine to me, but a little stiff no doubt.

 

Also her arms don't bend at all which doesn't help. But I think it would look pretty good if it was twice as many frames (filling in 1 frame between all existing frames).

 

Here I made a GIF real quick.

 

 

Alo I now see whoever made this original walk anim, he placed Elaine at the wrong height for some of the frames. The floor doesn't match her feet in some of these frames. She would step through the floor. Let me see if I have time to fix that, it is only 6 frames

[Guy.brush]

That's all very debatable and I don't want to get into it. There's multiple reasons and 3D is only a part of the factor. Whether it's completely cheaper is debatable as well,

 

I don't think it's debatable at all.

With 3d you can have multiple copies of a character. Lot's and lot's of animators can work with it

That suits the American studio model, where a small senior team does all the work on the design and then the animators just ape the style of the animation director.

With 3D you can easily change the camera angles and other stuff after the animation is done. (which shouldn't be done, I know, but it's a fact)

Theoretically you can achieve much greater image fidelity, animation sophistication or fluid animations in 3D. (try animating an Octopuss with 8 tentacles in 2D with 24fps)

You can easily go 3D stereoscopic etc...

You can reuse your sets and assets easily for a sequel, promotional artwork or games.

There is just tons and tons of reasons for 3D. Couple that with the lack of traditional 2D animation talent willing to work for today's salaries and it was natural to go 3D.

I still love 2D, don't get me wrong, but it has been a sidelines thing for a couple of years now. Just like theaters vs. movies.

[parabolee]

I don't think it's debatable at all.

With 3d you can have multiple copies of a character. Lot's and lot's of animators can work with it

That suits the American studio model, where a small senior team does all the work on the design and then the animators just ape the style of the animation director.

With 3D you can easily change the camera angles and other stuff after the animation is done. (which shouldn't be done, I know, but it's a fact)

Theoretically you can achieve much greater image fidelity, animation sophistication or fluid animations in 3D. (try animating an Octopuss with 8 tentacles in 2D with 24fps)

You can easily go 3D stereoscopic etc...

You can reuse your sets and assets easily for a sequel, promotional artwork or games.

There is just tons and tons of reasons for 3D. Couple that with the lack of traditional 2D animation talent willing to work for today's salaries and it was natural to go 3D.

I still love 2D, don't get me wrong, but it has been a sidelines thing for a couple of years now. Just like theaters vs. movies.

 

OK let's agree to disagree and move on huh? Don't want this thread to turn into a debate on this issue.

 

What I am looking forward to is really good cell shaded 3D. So it looks hand drawn. I would prefer Tales was cell shaded too.

 

Cell shading ages better too. Look at Zelda Wind Waker and Twighlight Princess. I think Windwaker still looks nicer!

 

EDIT: I love this screen from Tales for instance. Looks cell shaded -

 

Ignore the stupid X on her head. It's from Joystiq saying Tales will probably head to XBLA later (obvious much?).

[Monkey Mania]

Let's get in some more comparison photos.

[urluckyday]

I don't think so. I think they they made her legs too straight as she walks so she looks lady-like. I mean it looks fine to me, but a little stiff no doubt.

 

Also her arms don't bend at all which doesn't help. But I think it would look pretty good if it was twice as many frames (filling in 1 frame between all existing frames).

 

Here I made a GIF real quick.

 

 

Alo I now see whoever made this original walk anim, he placed Elaine at the wrong height for some of the frames. The floor doesn't match her feet in some of these frames. She would step through the floor. Let me see if I have time to fix that, it is only 6 frames

 

 

You're right...there are some height differences...really wouldn't have noticed if you didn't tell me though...

[Guy.brush]

I wonder if it would even look better if Elaine would have secondary and follow-through animations. If her arms would swing nicely and her legs make a smooth "reggae" walk it might look better in a still frame but in a 6fps animation cycle?

Were DOTT's animations still 6fps or 12fps? cause Hoagie's walkcycle looked very fluid back in the day.

[parabolee]

OK so I fixed Elaine's walk. Seems the guy that did the SWF didn't realise that her distant foot would not hit the floor at the same point as the close foot. unless the floor was seen side on with no perspective. So in his original her distant foot would actually go through the floor as she stepped forward.

 

EDIT: I just improved the fixed one some more. Because I'm an anal animator :-D

 

FIXED

 

ORIGINAL

 

I'm going to presume it is correct in the actual game!

[Guy.brush]

Lol me neither

 

You just need to look at it from a company's viewpoint:

With 3d, even with all the complicated rigging, UV mapping, rendering etc... you can always compartmentlize. You can build on your expertise. You can write scripts, make a pipeline that always works the same.

You can even build blendshapes and facial expressions, lyp synching that the animators just have to enable.

 

Basically: You don't have to start from scratch again with each project and the suits love it when all this stuff becomes more calculable.

 

With 2D you are very dependent on the talent working at your company. If the lead animator leaves on a 2D project, it is way more noticeable than if a 3d lead animator leaves.

 

I didn't want to focus on Disney as I don't have inside knowledge about them nor do I particularly care. I just wanted to point out that what Pixar does with 3D now, comes close to the sheer level of artistry of the 2D Disney animations in their haydays in 1930-1940. So it's not a case wether one is better than the other, just how you use and master it.

[parabolee]

Posting this again because I just wasted 15 minutes fixing her foot placement even more

 

 

I can only presume this is more accurate as to how it will look in game. I think it looks pretty good now. Not as stiff as I thought. Pay attention to the feet. On the old one her furthest away foot would fall through the ground as it hit the floor (because thhey animated her like she was walking on a 2D plain where both feet would hit the same level or ground.).

[Guy.brush]

thanks for clearing that up. But you are still bound to 6 frames you can play with. Secondary bounce animations like her hair going up and down reacting to her walking costs time, maybe it would look silly in 6 frames. But I admit I'm not a real expert on this.

 

EDIT: am i imagining things or does she have a slight hair bouncing?

[parabolee]

thanks for clearing that up. But you are still bound to 6 frames you can play with. Secondary bounce animations like her hair going up and down reacting to her walking costs time, maybe it would look silly in 6 frames. But I admit I'm not a real expert on this.

 

EDIT: am i imagining things or does she have a slight hair bouncing?

 

Nope she has a slight hair bounce :-D

 

I took a look at it frame by frame in flash. Didn't notice until you pointed it out. I still think characters with this much fidelity need more than 6 walking frames to look nice and smooth.

[Giant Graffiti]

Posting this again because I just wasted 15 minutes fixing her foot placement even more

 

Parabolee!

 

You're throwing your life away.

[parabolee]

Parabolee!

 

You're throwing your life away.

 

LOL, don't know about that but I'm certainly wasting too much time at work :-D

[parabolee]

Another comparison shot a grabbed from somewhere else -

 

[parabolee]

Here's a good test. I converted the new Elaine to the same amount of pixels as the original sprite!

 

 

No doubt this one is a little stiff when seen at this resolution. But again I have to say, it still looks like a decent animation to me. Pretty sure the stiffness is an attempt by the animator to make her walk lady-like, thus less bend in her knees.

 

I think I'll do this with Guybrush too! Gimme a few

[Monkey Mania]

In animation, characters with short legs work better at a low framerate than characters with long legs.

[parabolee]

Here we go, Guybrush SE walking animation.It's also worth noting that I had to fix this too, had the same distant leg perspective issue as the Elaine one. Pretty confident it's just the flash animator that sucks, not whoever did the in-game version. I also had to splice two frames together to make his turn right, but only because I didn't have the missing frame with his head facing the right way (doubt anyone can see it though). Also his earing switches sides because I am just mirroring the frames :-

 

 

And here it is converted to the same height of pixels as the original game . Which shows pretty conclusively IMO, that 6 frames is fine for 47 pixels high, but 317 could use at least 12 I think.

 

 

EDIT: Fixed

[parabolee]

Different version of Guybrush walk to show him walking further.