Online Activation on PC Gaming

[Alexrd]

I'm not sure if this topic is worth of being on Kavar's, but here it goes: Does anyone else have a problem with mandatory online activations on the PC gaming industry? Not only it makes an internet connection (which is paid and is not everywhere) one of the minimum requirements, but it also makes your game dependable of online servers which sooner or later will cease to exist. You no longer own your copy of the game. You rent it. Not to mention games which oblige you to install a third party software and to create an account so you can finally play the game you bought. What irks me even more is that I see many people who gladly accept it as something natural, and that consider me a retrograde for not buying games with this.

[mimartin]

I'm not sure if this topic is worth of being on Kavar's, but here it goes:

Moved thread out of Kavar's as I feel you will get a better response here.

 

Does anyone else have a problem with mandatory online activations on the PC gaming industry?

I have no problem with the simple activations, one and done. I understand the industries thinking there, but it really doesn't do any good, but I understand it.

 

My problem is the continued need for internet connection. What if the internet is down, what if I disconnected it to download data to my DVR, 360 or Blu-Ray. Why can't I skill play a game that I bought and paid for? What if I want to play the game in the middle of nowhere on a labtop? Many games have a offline mode, they just don't advertise it. Tell me up front how to play the game I bought and paid for...

 

Not only it makes an internet connection (which is paid and is not everywhere) one of the minimum requirements, but it also makes your game dependable of online servers which sooner or later will cease to exist.

Never had this problem, the game industry usually removes the online requirement before they bring their server down.

You rent it.

Read what you really bought, you pretty much agree to this for any software you purchase, games are not unique.

 

Not to mention games which oblige you to install a third party software and to create an account so you can finally play the game you bought. What irks me even more is that I see many people who gladly accept it as something natural, and that consider me a retrograde for not buying games with this.

I backed down and downloaded Steam, but not without first talking to other people here that have used it first. I will not be getting Origins until people I trust tell me it is safe. So I will not purchase ME3 on the PC. Does not mean I'm going to forgo something that gives me pleasure to make a statement. I respect people that do that, but that isn't who I am. It means I will be buying ME3 for the 360. EA/BioWare are still losing a sale, I purchased ME and ME2 both for the 360 and the PC. That will not happen for ME3 as long a Origins is part of the deal.

[Alexrd]

I have no problem with the simple activations, one and done. I understand the industries thinking there, but it really doesn't do any good, but I understand it.

 

Well, I understand it too, but I don't agree with it. The legal costumer should not be treated this way. Why should I have internet access as a requirement to play a singleplayer game (or even offline multiplayer)?

 

My problem is the continued need for internet connection. What if the internet is down, what if I disconnected it to download data to my DVR, 360 or Blu-Ray. Why can't I skill play a game that I bought and paid for? What if I want to play the game in the middle of nowhere on a labtop? Many games have a offline mode, they just don't advertise it. Tell me up front how to play the game I bought and paid for...

 

That's the same argument I make against online activation. You can only install it if you have an internet connection.

 

Never had this problem, the game industry usually removes the online requirement before they bring their server down.

 

They are under no obligation to do that. And you still need to have internet in such cases, since you have to download the patch that removes it, too.

 

Read what you really bought, you pretty much agree to this for any software you purchase, games are not unique.

 

By "rent it", I meant that you are not free to install and play wherever and whenever you want.

 

I backed down and downloaded Steam, but not without first talking to other people here that have used it first. I will not be getting Origins until people I trust tell me it is safe.

 

Safe for what? Steam may be a good service, but again, it's obligatory in some games and they are under no obligation to provide access to the games you bought in the event that their servers shut down.

[stoffe]

Safe for what? Steam may be a good service, but again, it's obligatory in some games and they are under no obligation to provide access to the games you bought in the event that their servers shut down.

 

The Origin client was caught snooping around on people's harddrives in folders it had no business to ever look in. It also collects usage data and send to EA that you can't opt out of (unless you live in Germany where they were legally forced to include that option).

 

Big deal for people who value their privacy and don't want a company with a bad history to profile them. Maybe not so much a big deal for the Facebook Generation who already live their digital life in a display window.

[Alexrd]

The Origin client was caught snooping around on people's harddrives in folders it had no business to ever look in.

 

I wasn't aware of that. Then again, it only supports my argument. Giving private details to play a game.

[igyman]

I definitely have a problem with online activation, or worse - DRM that requires constant internet connection - for the many reasons already stated. More generally speaking, I see absolutely no point in even implementing DRM. As any piece of software, it too can and will be cracked eventually. No exceptions. Considering that, I think DRM in general is a waste of money on the developer's/publisher's part, not to mention its existence can and apparently does cost the companies sales. On the consumer's side, it can negatively affect the game's performance. Just play The Witcher 2 with and without DRM and you'll clearly see the difference in performance.

 

As for Origin, I haven't tried it and don't intend to. I've seen the many discussions about it being spyware and after going through its EULA, I have no doubt that it's true.

[mimartin]

They are under no obligation to do that. And you still need to have internet in such cases, since you have to download the patch that removes it, too.

No they are not, but I haven't seen one yet not do it. It is just good business.

 

I wasn't defending online activation, was just stating my opinion on it, where I have a personal problem with it and where I don't. Was not stating your opinion was wrong or mine was more valid, just stating how it effect my gaming and nothing else.

[Alexrd]

No they are not, but I haven't seen one yet not do it.

 

Too soon?

 

I wasn't defending online activation, was just stating my opinion on it, where I have a personal problem with it and where I don't. Was not stating your opinion was wrong or mine was more valid, just stating how it effect my gaming and nothing else.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying anything regarding the validity of your opinion. I was just expanding my opinion on your reply.

[mimartin]

Too soon?

Not sure, I'm pretty sure there is at least one I own that has taken down their website and remove the requirement, but I can't think of what it is. The Witcher maybe, when they redid the site for The Witcher 2?

[Totenkopf]

I have no problem with the simple activations, one and done.

 

Not crazy about it, but basically agree.

 

The Origin client was caught snooping around on people's harddrives in folders it had no business to ever look in. It also collects usage data and send to EA that you can't opt out of (unless you live in Germany where they were legally forced to include that option).

 

Big deal for people who value their privacy and don't want a company with a bad history to profile them. Maybe not so much a big deal for the Facebook Generation who already live their digital life in a display window.

 

Given stoffe's "head's-up" on Origins...... I may have to revise my plans. Guess I might not be playing it as soon as planned b/c don't own a console or plan to get one anytime soon.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Does anyone else have a problem with mandatory online activations on the PC gaming industry?

 

I do. And I agree with your sentiments. It's annoying as flip, for the reasons you mentioned. What if I'm in the middle of nowhere? What if there's a power outage (its rare, but it happens)?

 

I especially do not like having to install extra proprietary software to play different publishers' games, and what's the worst - having to create individual accounts for each. And the way things are these days, any internet service basically requires you to sell your soul to sign up. I don't mind Steam too much, because of it's universal nature (one program, one account for thousands of games) and sales, but I'm very annoyed at the others (Ubisoft's UPlay, EA's Download Manager - now known as Origin, Windows Live).

 

And Origin is just.. no. As far as I know, this software goes through all your files on your computer, gathers file names, various file attributes, and does it even before you consent to it doing so in the Terms and Agreements in the setup. And I'm not sure of this, but I think it may go through text files as well.

 

I definitely have a problem with online activation, or worse - DRM that requires constant internet connection - for the many reasons already stated. More generally speaking, I see absolutely no point in even implementing DRM. As any piece of software, it too can and will be cracked eventually. No exceptions. Considering that, I think DRM in general is a waste of money on the developer's/publisher's part, not to mention its existence can and apparently does cost the companies sales. On the consumer's side, it can negatively affect the game's performance. Just play The Witcher 2 with and without DRM and you'll clearly see the difference in performance.

 

As for Origin, I haven't tried it and don't intend to. I've seen the many discussions about it being spyware and after going through its EULA, I have no doubt that it's true.

 

Pic related. (Hidden because I don't know if this is NSFW or not..)

 

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[igyman]

And Origin is just.. no. As far as I know, this software goes through all your files on your computer, gathers file names, various file attributes, and does it even before you consent to it doing so in the Terms and Agreements in the setup. And I'm not sure of this, but I think it may go through text files as well.

 

As much as they (EA) try to deny it, you need only go through Origin's EULA and read through the clause related to data collection to realize that it is spyware.

 

Pic related. (Hidden because I don't know if this is NSFW or not..)

 

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Exactly. Combine that with the "price vs. overall quality" factor and you get a perfectly good reason for people not wanting to buy games. IMO, dropping the DRM altogether would not only save money for the developer/publisher, but increase sales as well. Slightly lowering the prices of games (or significantly increasing their overall quality) would definitely lead to a further increase in sales, I think. Hell, The Witcher 2 reportedly sold over one million copies on the PC alone after doing exactly this (Starcraft 2 sold over 4 million, with the "constantly online" requirement, but hey, it's Blizzard, so they can get away with it for now).

[Alexrd]

Windows Live

 

In my opinion, GfWL is the least intrusive of them all. Not all games with GfWL oblige you to have an internet connection to play the game. Still, I'd rather not install any unnecessary third party software.

 

Fortunately there are places like GOG.com who care about legit costumers.

[Darth Avlectus]

It is with reluctance I choose to go with PC gaming that requires any sort of extra software to operate. I think once you purchase a game, you should be able to install it, play it. End of story. I also think subscriptions to play beyond initial purchase is bull ****. So, SWTOR and the valve games are going to be my exceptions to my MO.

 

Now if it was *just* a simple activation to be sure your product was not an illegitimate copy, and respond accordingly if it was, the only gripe I have is that it is a bother but usually these things are done once and you never have to really worry again. So it is understandable. (Hopefully alternative means of activation will exist should the web services or the company cease to exist).

 

My issue is mostly where you are required to constantly depend upon online services from elsewhere in order JUST to play a game. We all know eventually servers with these services expire for one reason or another EVENTUALLY. So when that day finally comes, your copy of software may be rendered completely useless and inoperable.

 

Granted nothing lasts forever, but it would be nice if, say 20 or 30 years time from now (provided we aren't in a second coming of the dark age), in my middle ages I would like to boot up a Valve game to play with Garry's mod for old times sake, or maybe I'd like to revive SWTOR because I'd like to fight Darth Malgus again.

 

...Alas, in this setup if none of those services are available for those games anymore, well that's tough luck.

 

So I think it's fairly obvious why people have problems with online activation for PC gaming.

 

<snip>Does anyone else have a problem with mandatory online activations on the PC gaming industry? Not only it makes an internet connection (which is paid and is not everywhere) one of the minimum requirements, but it also makes your game dependable of online servers which sooner or later will cease to exist. You no longer own your copy of the game. You rent it. Not to mention games which oblige you to install a third party software and to create an account so you can finally play the game you bought. What irks me even more is that I see many people who gladly accept it as something natural, and that consider me a retrograde for not buying games with this.

 

I am in agreement here.

 

Now if I rent a game, usually it's for a console and it doesn't really require anything more than popping it into the machine.

 

I definitely have a problem for the reasons you mentioned. Also it is a little too coincidental and convenient that it has access to not only billing info and any sensitive info related to it, but any sensitive information you may have on your computer. Private info gathered to be sold to 3rd party entities and God only knows who that really is for who knows what.

 

Supposedly it only says:

 

User: NX:4300-15888

date 1/12/12 time 00:17 PDT

-using browser X

-has directx 9.0 installed

-drivers y,z,w,v,t and u

 

However, why would it need to scan the *whole* system and hard drive when anything other than system folders is unneccessary? Why is "profiling" even necessary other than advertisements? It's already creepy enough that ad bars on the sides know I visit harbor freight and jlist and reflect advertisements. I don't need to be reminded that I looked at "Bible Black Origins PC collection on sale" or that I am considering buying some " 3-inch clamps" for my drill press, all within the past week.

 

IMO this "user profiling" is exactly why supporters of SOPA are chomping at the bit. If they want to sue you for copyright infringement simply because you have their "Vlad the impaler" as an avatar (and admire it), they believe they should be able to sue your ass into next tuesday.

 

Even if sensitive info is not stored, if I understand correctly an OS (well windows anyway) has its own keylogger built in as a compliance with law enforcement. I may be wrong but I do not think so. It only makes sense if it is to comply with law enforcement.

 

You hear the technocrat blowhards talk like "oh it's just fine" and "the only people worried about this are those with something to hide". No back doors, it's "just not true!!!1!"

So, privacy for the sake of dignity and common decency is now automatically considered hiding some kind of wrongdoing. I wonder if protecting your social security number makes you a terrorist?

 

The Origin client was caught snooping around on people's harddrives in folders it had no business to ever look in. It also collects usage data and send to EA that you can't opt out of (unless you live in Germany where they were legally forced to include that option).

 

Do you have any links to reports of this discovery?

 

for relevance sake

Source:

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/24/eas-origin-eula-proves-even-more-sinister/

 

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As spotted by the canny denizens of the Escapist forum, there is a quite extraordinary clause in the EULA of EA’s new game service, Origin. One that may well make you think twice about letting the software on your PC. Under the title of “Consent to Collection and Use of Data”, the clause states that by installing Origin you are giving EA permission to “collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer, operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware.”

 

Which is to say, if you want to play Battlefield 3, or any other game that will require Origin to run, you’re going to have to agree to that.

 

The full clause reads,

 

2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

 

You agree that EA may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services. EA may also use this information combined with personal information for marketing purposes and to improve our products and services. We may also share that data with our third party service providers in a form that does not personally identify you. IF YOU DO NOT WANT EA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE, TRANSMIT OR DISPLAY THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE APPLICATION. This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at http://www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control.

 

So in essence you consent to them having the right to violate your privacy because they might not choose to do it. It is therefore absolutely and necessarily illogical to conclude that it will happen even though the vagueness provides the perfect legal leeway to get away with it.

Ooh boy! Yippee!

 

For your further reading indulgence (and I do suggest you read at least once to arm yourself)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-invasion-of-privacy.htm

 

And Origin is just.. no. As far as I know, this software goes through all your files on your computer, gathers file names, various file attributes, and does it even before you consent to it doing so in the Terms and Agreements in the setup. And I'm not sure of this, but I think it may go through text files as well.

Could you link up any relevant info on where this has been discovered? I'd appreciate it my friend.

 

TL;DR:

- I think a one time simple activation is a pain but I'm okay with it.

- I think constant dependence of external services and installing additional software is a load of crap, as is pay for play even though you already bought the product --and it also invites unwelcome spying for SOPA supporters to masturbate to.

- I question what can be done in the future when expiration is upon services and companies the product intellectual rights belongs to and one desires to use the product again.

- PRIVACY=CRIMINAL is complete BS and a loaded gun fallacy because it fails to take into consideration personal dignity

- Why scan whole hard drive when system folders is all that is necessary?

- Vagueness of EULA seems an awful lot like legalizing gathering info to sell to 3rd party entities for questionable purposes at best. (Rubber hose cryptanalysis, anyone?)

 

Short-short version: I'd like to play my games if I want and there should not be all this BS attached. I paid for the initial product, I should be able to use it and that's all there is to it. Technocrats ought to be impaled. Paint me a conspiracy theorist for wanting privacy and a terrorist for storing canned food for hard times. What I got in store for your ass is going to make Red Foreman look like Mr. Rodgers in comparison.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Could you link up any relevant info on where this has been discovered? I'd appreciate it my friend.

 

Here's an article from a German gaming website, which sparked quite a movement in Germany, where Origin's actions actually violated national law:

 

http://www.pcgames.de/Battlefield-3-PC-221396/News/Battlefield-3-Origin-Update-EA-teilt-mit-Origin-ist-keine-Spyware-Wir-bedauern-die-Verunsicherung-unserer-Kunden-852067/

 

You'll probably have to translate it, if you don't know German (I don't).

 

On the page are 3 videos that are screen captures of Origin's actions as detected by Process Monitor. They show Origin going through many files on the users' computer, and reading various file attributes. One video shows how Origin does so even before they clicked 'accept' for the EULA in Origin's setup.

 

It looks like the program doesn't read text files, though.

 

Remember, according to Origin's pre-edited EULA, they reserved the right to combine information taken from your computer with personally identifiable information for marketing purposes, and to share the information with third parties in a non-personally identifiable manner. The first part, fyi, is exactly how spyware works.

 

The reason I did not state these ideas as confirmed facts is that, as I said, I can't understand German, so I don't know if the text or annotations in the videos retract or clarify any information. Also, in the article, it says (concerning the videos), "Deren Echtheit ist bislang allerdings nicht bestätigt. / Their authenticity has so far not been confirmed."

 

However, in one of the videos, there appears to be instructions on how to reproduce the test yourself. This, in my mind, lends some to the credibility of the videos. I would do it myself, but I'm not going anywhere near Origin.

 

 

Another interesting bit of information, from this article:

What’s more is that according to PC Games and another nifty user investigation (with the original thread from the forum having been removed by moderators, of course), the analysis found that Origin will scan your entire PC and collect certain kinds of data to send data back and forth to EA to check whether serial numbers and product keys match up, whether said keys are up-to-date or whether or not they are legit, as well as activity performed with other software -- apparently for marketing purposes. This information actually coincides with Coenen's statements above. So you can take that as you will.

[Alexrd]

A very interesting article about the ownership of games and (indirectly) the vulnerability of online DRM.