A New Type of Game? Or, Simply An Imitation?

[Zorro]

This is my opinion based on what I've observed.

 

When Jedi Knight was created a new era in video gaming was created.

 

Before this turning point in 'video gaming history' companies seemed to be content to imitate the latest popular games, and as a result a bundle of games arose that were basically very similar to eachother. Various failed duplicates of games like Quake plagued the retail stores flooding the 'gaming society' with games they had already played - only now with better graphics.

 

Then, Jedi Knight was created and video games began to change. New video games after this 'turning point' now began to imitate Jedi Knight. In game voices became more common. Strange puzzles and mazes also became more common in video games. As a result from Jedi Knight games like Thief, Elite Force, and Dues X were made, all on the building blocks of Jedi Knight.

 

And now, the question is, Will Jedi Knight II be another revolutionary game? What will Jedi Knight II bring to us that we haven't seen before? Better graphics? yes, but a better game? I'm not sure...

 

But that's just my opinion. What's yours?

[Red_XIIII]

there were other FPS with a story before Jedi Knight and FPS with annoying puzzles, JK was no historic turing point LOL and comparing Deus EX as it sprang from JK is ludicrous if anything it tried to copy HL and add a RPG element to it.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

I would say no I don't expect this game to send ripples throughout the entire industry.

 

I think a better question would be ask what you have in terms of Dark Forces series itself. Will the next game in the Dark Forces series be more evolutionary or revolutionary?

 

Dark Forces was one hell of an FPS when it was released. Personally I thought it beat the pants off DooM and DooM II, as much as I loved those. The step from Dark Forces to Dark Forces II (JK) was also quite a revolutionary one based on features alone. The lightsaber, force powers, multiplayer, WOW. It's going to be kind of hard for JKO to top that last transition, I'm not sure the times even allow for it. We are definitely looking at more of an evolutionary game in the Dark Forces series this time around imo, even given excellent single player.

 

But if I were to compare an unfinished JKO to what we've got out there already:

 

Multiplayer JKO is going to have a hard time going up against good non-deathmatch teambased games that have captured the hearts a huge percentage of FPS fans out there these days. If I were to guess I'd say JKO won't even be competing on this level and it will be up to the JKO modders to give us cooler multiplayer, editing willing.

 

Singleplayer, well, I have no clue. Deus Ex has one hell of a single player game, for example. Can it be topped by JKO? I won't hold my breath, honestly.

 

I mean no offense to any of the developers at Raven, I know they must be busting their asses, and I would be more than happy to have my half-asssed guesses proven completely wrong.

[Zorro]

Red, I think it would be ludicrous, to say that games like Dues Ex haven't taken some ideas from Jedi Knight. All throughout video gaming history games have been built upon previous successful ideas from previous games. Are you denying that?

 

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: Zorro ]

[ed_silvergun]

I agree that there are elements of Jedi Knight which have filtered down into more recent games. I would, however, stop short of calling it a "turning point" in gaming history. I think that if there was a turning point three or four years back, it was probably Half Life in terms of gameplay, and Quake II in terms of gaming engines, mainly because it brought 3d acceleration into the mainstream.

 

Jedi Knight was an excellent game, and one which I think was just as good as id or Valve's finest. But I don't think that many developers would have sat down and played it for long enough to have borrowed or copied ideas from it.

[Red_XIIII]

bah the only thing revlant to Jedi Knight in Deus ex is the dragon sword, as it looks like a saber, nothing else is close. it stole more from RPGS as its an RPG itself

[Zorro]

Red, I guess you don't understand me. I'm not saying that Dues Ex copied Jedi Knight, all I'm saying is that it built upon it. Built, in the same fashion that Quake was on Doom.

 

All I'm trying to say is that in my humble opinion great games bring new aspects to video games and that is what seperates them from being average.

 

So my question is simply will Jedi Knight II show us that we haven't seen before?

[GonkH8er]

Originally posted by Zorro:

<STRONG>So my question is simply will Jedi Knight II show us that we haven't seen before?</STRONG>

 

That Lucasarts has learned a lesson. If you want a pretty game, either

A) License an engine, dont make your own, or

B) Get someone else to do it for you, or even

C) Both A and B

 

[ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: GonkH8er ]

[tulwinn]

Just to add my two cents but I dont think Deux Ex copied Jedi Knight either. I have played both and I think a System Shock is a much more likely an influence for Deus Ex.

[TornSoul]

The only thing "revolutionary" in JK2 might be the improved saber fighting. But we don't know enough about it yet.

[StormHammer]

JK was the first FPS game I played where you had to try and protect some NPCs - I don't think there was one like that on the PC before, but I could be wrong. Both Unreal and Half-Life continued that theme, but whether they were influenced by JK is unknown.

 

JK also introduced the idea of 'morality' by having a choice between Light and Dark side based on your actions. It had a different ending for each path, but I don't know if that was the first FPS to include that.

 

Also, JK was the first game I played where you could switch between first-person and third-person at the press of a key within the game. And it actually has a good animation of the character in 3rd person that some games with a similar feature lack.

 

JK certainly had features many other FPSs of the time seemed to lack, but whether it actually influenced the designs of games that came after it is highly debatable.

 

I hope that JK2 can somehow improve on the gameplay of JK, and retain the choices of JK. I don't expect it to be the best FPS out there, but I think it may have a higher replay value compared to some others. There will certainly be some strong competition.

[AB]

I hope that JK2 will retain the ability to make choice(s), even if they aren't moral ones. I'd like the Nar Shaddaa level to have a choice -- it starts with you crashing whatever ship you use to get around. Then you meet a smuggler who offers to give you a loan of his ship if you help him in a side quest. If you do, you have a new ship, if you don't, you proceed to steal a ship from the landing docks.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

That is worth mentioning again Hulk Hogan.

 

One of my main criteria for judging JKO single player will be how linear the advancement of the game is, especially in regards to the individual levels which will be linked a few at a time to different locales. We also know that we won't be choosing between the light and dark paths this time around... I trust that they have something up their sleeves?

[The Wanderer]

the only thing they have up their sleve is "gotta get this thing out by the Christmas season!!!"

 

This is the reason they won't have time to do many new revolutionary things, and also why we won't see a choice between the light or dark side. not enough time.

 

Which, honestly, is just fine by me as long as it's a good story based single player game. I just hope they don't screw up the saber control. Auto block SUCKS for saber duels, which should be the heart of this game.

[Bartolo_JCS]

I also believe that JK changed the multiplayer community. Not the actual games that came out or what was in them. It expanded the possibility of making a multiplayer environment. You get to choose from no force to level 8 force which gives many multiplayer fans options on what they want to play. Other games took this into account.

 

If you look at CS, built off the HL engine, you have over a billion options on what/how to play. You can vote into a pistol and knife game only or no awp gun, the possibilities are endless. It also takes into account the gravity and air resistance. Unreal and quake engines have also been enhanced with multiplayer options.

 

All these options were sparked by perhaps, say, JK? I think so. I don't see Jedi Outcast being another revolutionary game this time around but I do see the quake engine being revolutionized to meet standards and perhaps surpass them in order to satisfy the hunger for another great saber wielding game.

 

[ August 29, 2001: Message edited by: Bart-=[JCS]=- ]

[Wilhuf]

Does Jedi Knight influence other PC games? Yes. Read this snippet from a pcgameplay interview with Medal of Honor Producer Peter Hirchmann.

 

PCG: The PC market is littered with first-person shooters. How are you distinguishing yourself from other games?

PH: One of my favourite games of all time is Jedi Knight, because the game's environment always made sense. There was never a situation that didn't make sense; no matter how impossible things seemed there was always some way out.

 

That's a great influence for game design and I like to think that things in Allied Assault always make sense. There's never anything contrived or stupid, especially when you're designing a game that is meant to be in a real-world environment where there's no excuse to do something stupid or include a dumb puzzle that's based on random luck.

[Arragorn]

What about the RPG elements of JK? I don't remember an FPS prior to it that actually had character advancement playing a major role in the gameplay. JK was revolutionary because of:

First-third person view modes

Character advancement

Character alignement

Use of force powers. A whole set of attack or defence options besides weapons.

A story that anyone who played it still remembers.

Close combat. (lighsaber duels)

 

When I play Undying I can't help but think, what if there was no Jedi Knight?...

How about Rune?

Or Deus Ex?

 

As for JK2, there is no way that it will be a revolutionary game like JK was. It will be exactly like every other game. Rushed in terms of gameplay and inovation but with better graphics...

[wardz]

I agree with aragorn,

 

It will be a kickass game, but it will never be the same as the first time you get the lightsaber and start swinging it around. granted it wasn't a very good lightsaber, but back in '96 '97 it was the best they could manage.

 

The fact that it wont be revolutionary doesn't bother me.

 

JK set the benchmark IMO and everyone else has followed it.

 

wardz

[Astrakhan]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:

<STRONG>the only thing they have up their sleve is "gotta get this thing out by the Christmas season!!!" </STRONG>

It won't be out until Spring 2002. Lucas' site says that.

 

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Astrakhan ]

[Dante1587246514]

i think you guys are giving the game way to much credit...sure jk had some inovative feature but that doesnt mean they influenced most of the FPS's today...some one mentioned counter strike...if you really wana know...CS was made as HL version of UT..then it evolved to something else due to developers actually trying to be orginal...not because they all played JK multiplayer...duex ex owed more to baldurs gate then to JK...and if you read around ion storm said it was influenced by system shock and blade runner...not JK...so most influences on games are based on other things not just JK...in fact most of best FPS's today still owe more to quake 2 than JK...

[Zorro]

Dante,

 

in fact most of best FPS's today still owe more to quake 2 than JK...

 

JK influences other games in the same way that almost all fps are influenced by doom, or quake.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Dante:

<STRONG>in fact most of best FPS's today still owe more to quake 2 than JK...</STRONG>

 

I got Quake 2 and Jedi Knight at the same time. I played Quake 2 first, then Jedi Knight. I still play Jedi Knight on occasion - but I've hardly looked at Quake 2 since I beat it.

 

Why? Quake 2 had some issues, for me. The movement felt wrong. The power-ups in the inventory was a bad idea, IMO. The story (such as it was) felt like a rip-off of Starship Troopers. The AI was nowhere near as good as they had suggested - in fact, most of the enemies are very easy to kill - including the Boss at the end, if you happen to have a Hyperblaster and Quad Damage turned on.

 

I can't comment on MP, because I never even bothered to play it.

 

I have to say that I enjoyed playing the original Quake more than Quake II - and I think it's more likely that some current FPS's owe more to Quake than Quake II. Maybe some FPS's do use Quake II as their role model - but it was an extremely average game compared to Jedi Knight, IMO.

 

I can only hope that Raven will put a lot of effort into making Quake IV a superior game in every possible way.

 

As for Jedi Outcast - I think it is going to be hard for them to achieve the long-term playability of JK, although not impossible.

[X-Vector]

Although I don't now if Lucasarts' JK influenced a significant number of competing developers, I do think it was something of a turning point in FPS history.

In my view it was the first 3D action game that went above and beyond the standard run-'n'-gun fare.

Sure there was Raven's Hexen II, which was released just before JK, but I don't think it really possessed a convincing storyline, to me it still was DooM with some extra bells and whistles, albeit a bit more of them than Quake 2 had (which sported the worst excuse for a story imaginable IMO).

JK had an interesting and important storyline, it had a large variety in environments, it had RPG-like force ('magic') powers and character growth, it had a working melee combat system, it had a morality system, it had interactive puzzles and to top it all of it also sported a supremely intense atmosphere (courtesy in part of John Williams's Star Wars score of course).

All these features combined delivered a gameplay experience that at the time was unrivalled and IMO also trendsetting.

 

Now to the question of Jedi Kight Outcast,will it deliver the same kind of groundbreaking experience as JK did.

I think it won't, if only for the two following reasons:

 

1. Competition.

 

When JK was released, it was the second of the new wave of 3D action games.

It preceded games like Quake 2, Unreal and Half-Life.

At the time it had only competition from Hexen 2 and a little after Quake 2 and both these games were far smaller in scope than JK was.

When JKO will be released, we will have at least played RTCW, Allied Assault and Duke Nukem Forever.

While I don't think of RTCW as a groundbreaking game, I do feel that Allied Assault will at the very least show us a new, more realistic approach to the action genre (without becoming as cerebral as Thief was).

It will feel like a fresh breath of air when compared to the one man army type of action games we've gotten used to.

Now for my personal favorite DNF, I believe it will change the way we look at what can be accomplished in the currently rather stale FPS genre, in the sense that it will redefine the use of interactivity with the gameworld and the objects included in it.

After DNF has been released, people will have vastly raised expectations in respect to what they will be able to *do* in a game of this genre, beyond the usual business of running, shooting, pushing buttons and searching for keys.

I simply don’t expect JKO to be able to compete with DNF in this regard, nevermind improving on it.

 

2. Raven

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not at all unhappy with LEC’s decision to ‘recruit’ Raven to work on their game, but I *do* think that while Ravensoft has proven itself as a developer that consistently delivers quality work, I don’t think any of their games have been truly revolutionary.

Raven has built up a solid reputation as a company that can take a given game (engine) and improve on it, mostly by fleshing out the gameplay element (DooM->Heretic, Quake->Hexen 2, Quake 2->Heretic 2, etc.).

However, Raven has never created a DooM, Half-Life or, dare I say it, Jedi Knight and I’m not that confident it actually will be able to do it now - although I’d like them to prove me wrong on that point.

[SlowbieOne]

For people like me who are hardcore Star Wars fans, there is no way on earth this game will suck in any way shape or form.

 

True it may not be groundbreaking, but it depends what that term means to you. Soldier of Fortune 2 and JO are both using the new GHOUL 2 system, which implements pixel per pixel contact. That alone could prove groundbreaking. The fact is that it is using the Q3 engine, the most popular engine out. Every time I play a new Q3 powered game, it just gets better. I can't see this game being any different.

 

It is obvious the game will have a lot more atmosphere than JK, and that says a lot for me.

 

The saber fighting is still questionable, but previewers says its amazing. And from what I've seen, I have no reason not to believe this.

 

For hardcore gamers that only look for gameplay(e.g. quake 3'ers or whatever), this may not be the best game for someone like that. Especially if they are not a big Star Wars fan.

 

Heretic 2 and Soldier of Fortune were two of the best games I've ever played on the PC, both made by Raven. I must say I pretty much HATE Star Trek, but Elite Force was a darn good game. So I already have a taste of what to expect from JO.

 

Ever since this game was announced, I have had a completely positive attitude about this game. In my opinion, this game can't be an imitation because it is using a new engine. Raven has my support to the fullest on this one, and I have confidence that they will produce one helluva game.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:

<STRONG>For hardcore gamers that only look for gameplay(e.g. quake 3'ers or whatever), this may not be the best game for someone like that. Especially if they are not a big Star Wars fan.</STRONG>

 

Well, I have to say I disagree with that point about gameplay. JK has some of the best gameplay I've ever seen in the genre, and I rate it higher than any of the Quake series. If JK2 can build on that, it will stand tall amidst all those other much-anticipated FPS's due to be released around the same time (SOF2, Unreal II etc.).

 

<STRONG>Heretic 2 and Soldier of Fortune were two of the best games I've ever played on the PC, both made by Raven. I must say I pretty much HATE Star Trek, but Elite Force was a darn good game. So I already have a taste of what to expect from JO.</STRONG>

 

I totally agree with you. I too have SOF and Heretic II, and they are two of my favourite games. Strangely enough, I too am not much of a Star Trek fan - especially not Voyager - but I decided to bite the bullet and bought Elite Force (which arrived yesterday). I've started the SP game and tried the Bot Holomatch and I'd rate it much higher than Quack III's (demo) bot match.

 

I think SOF2 and JK2 are also going to be among my favourite games when they are released.

 

[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: StormHammer ]