How to Balance The Saber and Guns in JK2

[toms]

maybe the bigger guns should reduce your speed when you have them equiped? i am sure a few games have done that.

 

you wouldn't really be able to run that fast with a rocket launcher on your shoulder...

[madrebel]

ok first off lets get something straight.

 

a force wielding jedi knight game is no place for realism. just stop even mentioning realism. there are plenty of realisitc games/mods out there go play one of those if you want realism. I for one am so over joyed that a game is coming out NOT based on realism.

 

So having said that let me repost what i posted before the forums got upgraded and i think i lost what i posted.

 

*former post*

In single player, all the weapons, besides the bow caster, were all good and useful. If you had problems using any of the guns in single player...well im not sure what to tell you practice your aim i guess.

 

Now, we all need to remember why all but 3 weapons were useless in multiplayer, the crappy netcode. Now if you dont remember how Jedi Knight works ill remind you all. THe picture of the enemy character on your screen was not actually where that enemy character was unless he was in fact standing still. JK used a "ghost prediction" system.

 

This system rendered hit-scan weapons, and prediction weapons(st rifle/repeater....) completely useless because you never knew exactly where to aim, unless.......unless you were on a lan. Because on a lan the pings were so low what you saw was actually where that person was standing.

 

SO since the "smaller" weapons were useless, everyone used mines, rail gun, and conc rifle. Since these dealt area damage you could shoot to where they were going to be and still register damage.

 

The Q3 engine will make a huge diffference in online play balance since what you see is always where you need to shoot.

 

p.s. i really hope the mines are in JKO

[Guest ReAcToR]

It seems that my post was deleted in the upgrade...it was rather long too and I don't have time to retype all of that.

 

I'll just summarize...

 

Making weapons of equal strength doesn't balance a game. To balance a game, you would want some of the weapons to be more powerful than other weapons. JK/MotS were both somewhat balanced. To compensate for the weaker weapons, you would simply make it possible to evade and attack in other ways. They did this in JK/MotS. You were able to use the Force to evade and attack regardless of what weapon you had. With the Force as your ally, you were able to attack and evade your opponent rather easily if you were of equal skill. All of the weapons in JK/MotS were effective in certain situations. Some people seem to think that if a newbie with a Lightsaber can't kill an expert with a Concussion Rifle, that the game isn't balanced. You must achieve a certain skill-level before the game becomes balanced. To make the game balanced at such a low skill-level would only ruin the fun for the more serious players.

 

You are armed only with a Blaster and your opponent has a Concussion Rifle? What are you whinning about? Get busy and learn some good old-fashioned deathmatch skills. Simply use a little stealth, evade your opponent for a few minutes and pick up what weapons you can in the meantime. It's quite easy to get kills in all of the LEC maps with the weaker weapons, it's just not easy for people who haven't acheived a certain skill-level. You don't need a Concussion Rifle to kill someone of equal skill with a Concussion Rifle. That is just a popular misconception that has been going around since the birth of JK/MotS. It's easier for people to deem a game unbalanced than to spend the time to make it balanced. I can't count how many times I've killed skilled players with mines and other weapons. They have a Concussion Rifle and are camping the catwalk in Canyon Oasis? Big crap. You may die a few times before you can take their pack away from them but it isn't impossible.

 

In my experience, most FPS games have been somewhat balanced. No game is perfect, but I just hope that some of you will realize that there is more to making a game balanced than making the weapons of equal strenght. One of the best ways, in my opinion, to make a game balanced, is to make it where there is always a way to evade death if you can outsmart your opponent. One of the easiest ways to do this is to have an advanced movement system and effective manuevering capabilities(rolling, flipping and crouching).

 

I don't have time to go into any more detail, it's time for class. I have 1 term paper due today, 2 tomorrow and 4 exams tomorrow(all within 10 minutes of one another).

 

Make it stop!

[BigE]

Hi, Im new at this forum. I have been playing Jedi Knight a few years ago (it was my first multiplayer experience). After that I moved to play Unreal Tournament CTF. Which I am very good at ( ) and now I feel its time to await the arrival of Jedi Knight 2.

 

About the lightsaber in JKI. I can understand its a pain in the ass to use in multiplayer with concussion spamming newbies but it owned in singeplayer. I just recently played the game at hard difficulty and had no problem playing it entirely with the lightsaber ( I did use weapons for taking out turrets, probes and AT-ST's ofcourse ). My trick was to use Force pull in combination with the lightsabers [ not so good ] reflectiveness. Anyone carrying a gun that I could reflect would lose their weapon and get slain just after. The other enemies I would either evade to get up close or use my guns on. It worked deliciously

 

Anyway. I hope for very many different moves with the lightsaber then just the 2 we had in JKI. No splash damage guns and increased gun accuracy. That would make this game perfectly balanced.

[Agen]

No splash damage guns and increased gun accuracy. That would make this game perfectly balanced.

 

Have to disagree with you there because what about people who don't have cabel (like me) non-splash weapons aren't always useful.

Q3 seemed to handle this very badly about the lag as u would jsut be stuck but UT was decent..... u msut have splash damage weapons.. u can't demolish them completely.

[Moradivh]

Too bad... there were a couple of good posts deleted in this thread. Ah well.

 

Weapon balance assumes one thing: that the opponents are EQUAL IN SKILL with their respective weapons. And balance does NOT mean "make every weapon exactly the same."

 

Not counting the visual effect of every gun, here's just a few balancing factors that can be tweaked to make weapons unique, yet equally useful in most combat situations:

- Range

- Accuracy

- Speed of projectile (leading the target)

- Reload time

- Firing rate

- Damage

- Path of projectile (i.e. grenades, heat-seekers, etc.)

- Countdown timers

- Kickback

- Stickiness of projectile (i.e. rail detonator, wall mines)

- Area of effect

- Ammo consumption rate

- Secondary function

 

And then there's economic factors:

- Ammo supply on maps

- Weapon accessability on maps

- Weapon cost (like in Counter-Strike)

 

Now, it's true that weapons are NOT equal in real life. But realistically, if the Concussion Rifle was as amazing in the SW movies as it was in the original JK, then EVERY Stormtrooper would be carrying one. Like I said earlier, if the Empire had enough resources to build DEATH STARS, they could equip their infantry with conc rifles.

 

And don't give me any garbage about the conc rifle being "balanced if there wasn't any lag." Trust me, it'd STILL be overpowered, mostly because players ran fast enough to dodge every other gunshot, especially with force-run-and-jump. And with a Bowcaster, it was hard enough to shoot anyone in SINGLEPLAYER. Lag was one of many unbalancing factors, and not the greatest of them.

 

The dev's did TRY to balance weapons like the conc rifle. They gave it a slower firing rate than other guns. They made it more of an ammo hog. Good ideas both, but they weren't taken far enough. They certainly weren't designed for multiplay.

 

But people are asking... why bother? Why is saber/gun balance so important? After all, you could just join "saber only" games if you want to use sabers. Or you could make your own MODs and play the game however you want.

 

Well, here's why you should bother:

 

To have more of a game. To maximize the its fun and replayability for the greatest amount of people. To get as much done RIGHT the first time as possible. To keep more players interested longer. And to discourage the online community from splitting into tiny, isolated cult followings.

[madrebel]

i have to disagree with the conc being overpowered.

 

It is supposed to be the most powerful gun. BUT at close range it is easily outclassed by the rail. The rail had less splash damage but a much greater point of impact damage, whereas the conc was pretty much equal damage through out the blast radius.

 

The conc rifle was the best gun...as is every games BIG gun. Thats the way it should be.

 

And yes, good netcode will help a great deal to balance the game.

 

full force guns although great fun was a joke. Every weapon save the conc rifle was worthless(mines worked well too) for one reason. You couldnt friggin hit due to lag. With Q3 netcode the repeater and rifle would be alot easier to hit a target with.

[Moradivh]

<madrebel>The conc rifle was the best gun...as is every games BIG gun. Thats the way it should be.

 

The way it "should" be? Why?

 

Maybe from a singleplayer perspective, yes -- guns are designed so they're only useful until a better gun is found, as a kind of progressive reward system. The big gun is the ultimate reward.

 

But multiplayer is a whole other can of beans. EVERY weapon is available to you almost from the start. So 99% of gamers will just ignore the other 20 guns Raven so painfully designed for them and swarm for the BIG GUN. It's the weapon that gives them the highest score, the greatest respect, and they can't fit in with the other l33ts without it.

 

Of course, battles with only ONE weapon get old after a short time. Some players might try the other guns, and endure the embarassment of being a loser... for a while. Others will try those "saber only" games, or maybe a mod, but A LOT of players will just quit JK2 and play some other game. And that's not good.

 

There's tons of different multiplayer options, of course. In Counter-Strike, you need to make some cash before you can buy the bigger guns. That's one of the "economic" forms of weapon balancing I mentioned, and a damn fine system.

 

But I doubt the average JK2 match will work like Counter-Strike, but rather like the original JK. I'm sure there'll be mods, but you probably won't "purchase" weapons in most games.

 

And frankly, I don't like environmental or economic restrictions made for the sake of weapon balance. It makes simple map-making too complicated, and the system too easily exploitable.

 

Instead of reducing the ammo for the BIG GUN or disallowing it on most maps, I'd rather see every weapon have its use, no matter who you're up against, no matter what gun he has. Not in EVERY situation, mind you (I wouldn't want to fire a conc rifle at point-blank range, or use a grenade launcher as a sniper rifle), but EVERY weapon should be handy at least 20-50% of the time.

 

As an example... the Bowcaster in JK. It was useful about 0% of the time. There was not a single situation where it was tactically better than another gun, or not one that I've ever enountered. The rail detonator, on the other hand, might have been equal to the conc rifle if there wasn't any lag. But guns like the repeater and ST rifle just couldn't compare, even in no-force matches, even with no lag. And I won't even mention Kyle Katarn's weapon of choice: the brayer pistol.

 

On another note, I have nothing against specialty weapons (like a grenade, for instance). But most guns should be multi-purpose, unless you're designing a game where EVERY weapon is a specialty weapon.

[madrebel]

look....you must not be very good. that isnt a bad thing you have a right to your opinion and a right to expect a fun game.

 

example:

 

last night i player JK online for the first time in ages. i was playing NF guns with some extremely good players. This one guy was using the bowcaster very effectively. Bowcaster is best used as a weapon of either extreme close range or as a weapon of surprise. Plain and simple.

 

Ill say it again because you obviously arent getting the point.

 

the repeater and the ST rifle as well as the bowcaster would/will be alot more useful on the Q3 engine. The netcode makes weapons like that quite good for finishing weapons or as last chance suicide close range weapons. That is all they should be.(exclamation on the period) Name 1 game where you have one of the 3 weakest weapons and youre going up against someone with one of the top 2 weapons and have a snow flakes chance in hell of routinely getting the victory.

 

See thats what youre missing...level design/item placement dictates game play. Good DM players learn how to control the map. They learn how to get the good items and how to either defend or attack the good items. If you arent comfortable playing at that kinda hardcore level then im sorry, but dont whine. I gotta tell ya im not willing to play like that, but i dont cry game balance when someone who is that hardcore beats me. I try and win on my aiming ability alone mostly

 

Counter-Strike has a lame...albeit useful system. Its lame for this reason, its a reality based mod correct? So why does a counter terrorist soldier not have access to a counter terrorist organization's bank roll? That is a weak way to balance a game IMO its artificial. That and im so sick of counter-strike. Screw counter-strike i dont want a Star Wars Jedi-Knight shooter to have anything to do with a reality based shooter.

[Moradivh]

Okay... big response here.

Sorry for the long read.

 

look....you must not be very good.

 

Ha. Now there's an interesting accusation.

 

last night i player JK online for the first time in ages.... This one guy was using the bowcaster very effectively.

 

Honestly, I don't know how JK's online scene has changed in the last 3 years, because I haven't played in that time. Jedi Knight was actually the first online game I ever got into, and I considered myself experienced at it. I wasn't an undisputed genius at the game, but I did play it constantly for many months. I lost interest in it just before MOTS came out, so I'm not familiar with the expansion disc's new goodies.

 

Back in the day, I dabbled in all the original weapons, played all sorts of opponents. My favorite matches wound up being NF saber dueling. Despite the lack of USEFUL sword maneuvers, I loved 1vs1 fights where me and my opponent would spend 10 minutes of frantic sword-swinging, running and dodging before finally landing a kill. Talk about suspense.

 

Of course, I also enjoyed the madness of FF/no-restriction Oasis battles. I even fought several of the #1 players on Case's Ladder, put up a good fight each time (though I didn't usually come close to winning). So I guess I was hardcore, but not THAT hardcore.

 

And in the hundreds of games I played, the thousands of killings I witnessed, I might have seen a Bowcaster frag... maybe once, twice at most. Neither did I see Lucasarts release any balance-altering patches that improved the Bowcaster's performance, or that of any other gun.

 

But hell, I've been TOTALLY out of the loop for 3 years! If the Bowcaster's a good weapon now, tell me! I just assumed that it was the same as it always was, and never dreamed that players could find a practical way to use it against a conc-rifle player of equal skill. But hey... I suppose anything's possible in 2 years.

 

the repeater and the ST rifle as well as the bowcaster would/will be alot more useful on the Q3 engine. The netcode makes weapons like that quite good for finishing weapons or as last chance suicide close range weapons.

 

Finishing weapons? Last chance suicide weapons? Heheh... is that why Chewie and the Stormtroopers carried them around? I suppose final-touch weapons like that are sorta fun from a gaming standpoint, but they be a lot MORE fun (and realistic) if they were... you know... practical weapons of war? I mean, maybe ONE surprise-last-ditch-suicide weapon would be cool, but not several. And again, Kyle's trusty brayer pistol is too weak to be considered even for this pathetic tactic. *sigh*

 

And about your netcode thing... I never said you were wrong. I certainly hope you're correct. But having never played Q3 hardcore, I wouldn't know. If it's anything like the old Quake2 netcode, I might be inclined to agree (because that WAS better). But I HAVE played the original JK with no lag, and most of the weapons still sucked.

 

If you arent comfortable playing at that kinda hardcore level then im sorry, but dont whine. I gotta tell ya im not willing to play like that, but i dont cry game balance when someone who is that hardcore beats me. I try and win on my aiming ability alone mostly

 

I'm not willing to play like that either. I never spent 24/7 perfecting my technique and memorizing every detail of every map. But I DID pay attention to the details of the game. And I never cried game balance when the top Ladder players kicked my ass. It was cool, and educational.

 

Counter-Strike has a lame...albeit useful system

 

I'm glad we agree somewhere. Counter-Strike's lack of financial realism is lame, but it's a shooter, so what can you do? Frankly, I'm not impressed by ANY online game that doesn't bother to balance its arsenal. Counter-Strike is better than some (you can still KILL regularly with most weapons, unlike JK), but it cheats balance by imposing that fake "money system." ... Oh well. It's still a great mod, as mods go.

[madrebel]

well there needs to be some very definite differences between weapons.

 

again lesser weapons should not ever compare to the main stay weapons. every game has their "rocket launcher" that is pretty much the main stay weapon that everyone wants and fights for.

 

IMO thats the way it should be

[ZeroXcape]

Who needs to balance guns and sabers? In JK, someone with The Force and a saber could take out anyone on the board. (Conc rifle or no conc rifle.)

[Metallus]

This topic reminds me of how much I suck at JK. Ah well, still my favorite LEC non-adventure.

[Guest Home_Sliced]

Name 1 game where you have one of the 3 weakest weapons and youre going up against someone with one of the top 2 weapons and have a snow flakes chance in hell of routinely getting the victory.

 

UT. Granted much is dependent on the environment, but I could generally put up a good fight at the very least. For instance...

 

One Enforcer was fairly useless, but when doubled up you can take down anyone given the right environment. In fact, I often pick double enforcers over any other weapon on some maps.

 

BioRifle: yea, it was pretty worthless.

 

Shock Rifle: the special combo attack, in the hands of a skilled player (or a lucky one ) is quite devastating.

 

 

Another rubuttal to the above statement being that weapon balance does not necessarily mean that the weapons are always balanced in every situation. Or, as you put it, you will "routinely get the victory." In a large open area, naturally a rocket launcher or sniper type weapon will serve best. In a tight area, a shotgun type weapon or one that outputs a lot of ammo will probably be the most useful. Therefore, a person having the "right" weapon should more routinely get the victory. As you said, "level design/item placement dictates game play." However, it should still be possible given a particularly well aimed (or lucky) shot to take out a player with a "superior" weapon. This just did not happen in JK between players of equal skill. It's either conc or death 90% of the time. IMO, that is not very good weapons balance. Yes, there should still be a big gun that is more useful/powerful than other guns (enough that players have an incentive to want it), but not at the expense of making all the other weapons next to worthless. Are there uses for all of JKs weapons? Yes, but the uses are not broad enough nor spread out enough over all the weapons.

[acdcfanbill]

well, the bio gun ist totally useless, in certian places, i would choose it over something like the shock rifle... two well places shots with the bio gun could kill you, not to mention it sticks all over and explodes.... granted i didnt use it a whole lot, but it defently wasnt a usless gun... the flak cannon has to be my fav though...

[Nemios]

I think splash damage weapon should be quite difficult to use so the power is a reward to your good tactics. Decent examples are Thermal detonators, mines and secondary mode of the rocket launcher (If you miss the enemy and he can move to escape it is pretty useless). Very powerful projectiles could be wide but with poor range (like 2nd fire if the conc, but the projectile wasn't wide and you can't really see where you were shooting) so you have to run next to the enemy to make use of it. Less powerful weapons could have high fire rate or/and be very accurate (I like ST Rifle but, like someone else said, the first shot should have been precise. Other shots shouldn't be accurate only if you are keeping pressed the fire button).

With features like this you can possibly win with every weapon but you have to fight in different ways. What do you think?

[Kurgan]

I started playing Elite Force the other day, and I noticed how Raven threw in a pretty feasible explanation for the "bottomless backpack" of nearly all FPS games.

 

Their explanation? Using transporter technology (it's Star Trek after all), the extra weapons/items/ammo are stored in partical form in these little condensors on your power suit. Thus it makes sense that you can whip them out of nowhere and you don't get any penalty for carrying every single weapon in the game. Works for me!

 

Also, I think the idea of "weighting down" Kyle with weapons is silly.

 

If Yoda (little Yoda!) can lift an X-WING FIGHTER without too much trouble, then surely Kyle can lift 200 lbs of guns or whatever it is.

 

I think the idea of 1 hit kills for everything should be a mod or option for MP. After playing Star Wars Quake2 TC with one shot kills, I just think it's a bad idea as the default or only option. In SP it just encourages you to quicksave/load constantly to avoid severe frustration, and in MP it just kills the drama of long battles. Why stay for a saber duel when you can just shoot clip the guy with your gun in one shot and win?

 

So, whatever it takes, whatever BS explanation they can come up with to fill in the "gaps" do it, Raven, that's my advice. Just make it as fun and balanced as you can manage and throw in plenty of options for the people who want a change of pace.

 

Kurgan

[madrebel]

why does everyone seek an explanation?

 

i know its not possible to lug around 12 guns....guess what i dont care. Its a video game.

 

Also to prove my point, last night i played another NF guns game against someone on the zone. He was pretty good too. I killed him 4 times with the bowcaster. Its actually a pretty good weapon at close range.

[Moradivh]

**cracks knuckles**

 

Kurgan: good points.

 

Home_Sliced: I couldn't agree with you more.

 

Nemios: Yep.

 

ZeroXcape: So you're basically saying that a Full-force (FF) Jedi could beat a no-force gunner? ... Maybe, but that situation never happened in multiplayer JK, since the gunners used force powers as good as the Jedi's. And a FF gunner beats a FF saber any day of the week, assuming the players are equally skilled.

 

madrebel: dude, don't conform! Open your mind... heheh. *cough* Uber-guns are great in singleplayer, but in multiplay they just limit the possibilities of play for most people. They need to be kept on a leash -- with limited ammo, long reload times, whatever -- just so they don't hog the whole online scene.

 

Okay, obviously some of you don't really know what balance is, or its importance. It's a question of micro vs. macro, thinking of the long-term vitality of a game.

 

I hate to use such an abstract example, (I'll receive a lot of flak for this) but it's the most balanced game I've ever played.... an RTS:

 

StarCraft.

 

I played this game for almost 3 years because of the sheer number of ways it could be played. Blizzard busted its butt to balance every inch of Starcraft, and did it EVER pay off. They designed all 36 units and spells to have a very specialized use. And it didn't matter if you were a stupid newbie or a die-hard Ladder player, a casual gamer or someone obsessed with getting the highest score. ALL the weapons were used at every level of play, and the only limit to tactics was the tactics of your opponent, which you had to adapt to for victory. And there were dozens, if not hundreds, of adaptations available, depending on what tactic you and your opponent went for.

 

In Starcraft, there was no "hopeless" weapon like the brayer pistol or ST rifle. SC's units were only made hopeless by the stupidity of the PLAYER who didn't take advantage of them properly. And that's the way it should be.

 

Of course, rushing was sometimes a problem, and disconnects, and map-hacks. But otherwise, DAMN was that ever a fine system.

[madrebel]

well i may have not stated my opinion clearly.

 

main stay weapons:

 

quake series was the rocket laungher.

 

unreal series really has 3 shock rifle, rocket launcher(8ball), and the flak cannon.

 

in the original JK there was 2, conc rifle and the rail.

 

That i fine those are the main stay guns and should be the weapons of choice.

 

I personally think the conc does a bit to much damage and has to wide of a blast radius.

 

Also, like most modern DM games ( i do hope there are other modes in JKO as well) the small..."hopeless" weapons are no longer. Default gun in Q3 is the machine gun...its actually a good weapon. UT's default weapon isnt bad either...but if you go up against someone with full health + good weapon and you have full health + pistol(even double pistol) it is my opinion that you should expect to lose more than 70% of the time. If you didnt whats the point of trying to get better weapons?

 

What i would like to see in JKO:

 

Storm Trooper Rifle:

 

needs to have dare i say it....counter-strike/wolfenstein like firing accuracy. The longer You hold down the trigger the more Varied your shots become. This should also be the default weapon IMO with say 50 rounds? Secondary fire should be a zoomed in scope mode that is both very accurate and slower firing. I dont think the damage in this secondary mode should be changed however (god i hate using this comparison again but it fits, in counter-strike both sides have an assault rifle that can zoom in, since the ST rifle does have a scope i think it should be similar).

 

Repeater:

 

IMO on the Q3 engine's netcode this gun will be a dream. I dont think it needs anything.

 

Bowcaster:

 

Primary mode IMO should take less time to charge up the 5 bolts

 

Secondray fire needs to be The instant Hit equivalent of say quake 3's Rail gun. Makes this the hard hitting precise long range threat. Make it take 5 nrg cells per shot.

 

Thermal Detenators:

 

IMO everyone should start with 5 of these things. They are already under used which is a shame. The movies made it seem like these things were to be feared. Yet i never once feared someone with a thermal online.

 

Also make a quick 'tap' of the key throw a set medium distance both for primary and secondary fire. Then of course make a longer hold allow for a ranged toss.

 

Keep both modes. Contact and timed detenators both have their places.

 

Mines:

 

LEAVE THEM IN OMG THESE ARE SO FUN

 

Make them stick to ceilings this time though =)

 

I did like MOTS's mines too. Having both proximety, short fuse, and remote detenation mines was great fun.

 

Rail Gun:

 

Make it travel slightly faster? Or make it add your momentum to the speed it travels. In full force i remember running into my rail charge a few times hehe.

 

Sticky mode is fun dont dork with it

 

Mysteries of the sith had heat seakers, these were pretty fun but depending on the map design were horribly exploited at times. Still fun though from time to time.

 

Conc Rifle:

 

Primary mode:

Smaller blast radius and a little less damage per hit. Maybe make it alot less damage when you have full shields? Like in, damnit i hate referencing yet another "reality shooter" But in soldier of fortune 1 a shotgun was crap against someone who had full armor. Since the concusion rifle is after all just compressed air should shields stop alot of the damage? Make it cost maybe 10 power cells?

 

Secondary mode:

Will be great with the q3 netcode. Please dont mess with it.

 

Carbon Gun:

hehe this gun was alot of fun in mots. It was far to easy to use though. If they include it in JKO it needs to be extremely short range with a very narror "cone of cold" meaning you have to be dead on to score a hit....it shouldnt immedietely freeze either the first few hits should slow you and then maybe freeze you after some succesful hits. Maybe make it so the saber oculd "burn through" or block the carbon too

 

Saber:

Please, for the love of all thats holy make this a very deep dynamic weapon that is both easy to use...yet very hard to master.

 

Make secondary fire have more of a penalty if you miss. Make lots of moves/combos for primary fire.

 

Above all make it friggin cool as hell! (maybe a quarter staff saber? )

 

IMO that would be perfect balance

 

Once you spawn in you would have a storm trooper rifle with 5 thermals. If you cant defend yourself with that then you need to hang up your mouse

 

Also personalities mode was alot of fun in mysteries of the sith too.

 

I would reccomend one small change. Make it so the jedi CANT pick up weapons in personalities mode.

[Moradivh]

Hmm.... Sounds like a pretty good system. Workable, definitely better than the original JK. Obviously JKO won't have all the same weapons, but whatever.

 

Mines were fun, but what I REALLY loved was sticking rail detonators to people's asses, and watching the smoke trail from their butts as they ran in terror before blowing up. Muahaha.

 

Anyway, your ideas are good, but I might keep the default gun as a Bryar Pistol. It'd be a shame to give up Kyle's favorite weapon. Maybe they could make it the ultimate "newbie gun" by giving it some sort of advanced auto-aiming feature, so it couldn't miss at short range. Then it might be comparable to the ST rifle, even though it fired less rapidly. Perhaps you could choose between either weapon at the start of a match.

 

They could also make the pistol the fastest draw in the game, though it wouldn't be that big an improvement.

 

Anyways, I don't really care what the details are, so long as the guns compliment one another and the combat situations you usually face. But in an average 1on1, I don't think ANY gun should beat any other gun more than 30% of the time. Otherwise a lot of weapons just won't get used.

 

And if there is a "gun hierarchy" of some sort, then sabers should be VERY high up there. Either that, or have a game mode that imposes force restrictions on gunfighters.

 

I'm looking forward to Raven's improvements on the lightsaber. It'd be great if they had a system where every sword-move was USEFUL as well as cool-looking. And I hope to God that blaster deflection actually WORKS in multiplayer, because it sure sucked ass in JK. Now, that doesn't mean I want to block nuclear explosions with my stick, but some sort of compromise would be nice. I'm open to suggestions.

[Agen]

I think people are getting mixed up here.... who says u can't have the force while using guns?????

 

Also to prove my point, last night i played another NF guns game against someone on the zone. He was pretty good too. I killed him 4 times with the bowcaster. Its actually a pretty good weapon at close range.

 

If u ever played with Phoenix, Narz (Jeezo), Rampage and other wds and bsbs (HDK but they're nf gunenrs.. nf not my stuff)

u would realsie that bowcaster is completely useless. what u need in jk is tactics speed sight and a conc... otherwise they will tramp over u (Narz would tramp over u anyway though)

If u ever tried to play anyone half decent at ff oasis they would em.. let's see er.. kill u. I mean they're on speed (force speed hehe) with their map on and they have a conc and force if u shoot bowcaster let me see.... they get out of the way with no problem and u get blown to hell....

Nf maybe a different story but most likely to get mauled in that too. I don't paly nf as i see it as quake with new maps and guns.

sabers were wuite pathetic unless u were palying another saber.

 

Unless they Zone has gone really REALLY terrible it's unlikely to get a bowcaster kill. i seen it twice and it was liek this it was me and my cousin in a team he force jhumped while holding the bowcaster and while he was in the air he just popped him while he was still stuned.

 

Also the bowcaster has been announced to have splash damage.

 

Can anyone remember the doom level designing? (Deu ahh... the memories.

They had the rocket launcher in the middle of the level and u had to make a run to get it while being fired at... good design indeed.

oasis may have tried this they did in bespin but oasis lacked it and made a big mistake by putting the surge right beside it once they got there u were done destruction and conc = death.

That is what made doom so good for it's time.. the level design (including mp) they had the chance taking.. make or break. Jk done this very well but lacked in the main level of mp.. oasis.

[madrebel]

Well the bryar may have been kyle's favorite weapon, but its not boba fett's or luke's or vader's or......

 

in multiplayer you dont play exclusively as kyle.

 

also i think they should bring back all the older weapons. They rocked and were all in the starwars universe.

 

Their absolutely needs to be a gun heirarchy. If all the guns were equal what would be the point of fighting for a better weapon? Yes all weapons need to be effective but not all equal.

 

and again, the saber dueling/blocking as well as hit scan weapons and projectile weapons, will all be ALOT better under Q3s netcode.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator

I think people are getting mixed up here.... who says u can't have the force while using guns?????

 

 

 

If u ever played with Phoenix, Narz (Jeezo), Rampage and other wds and bsbs (HDK but they're nf gunenrs.. nf not my stuff)

u would realsie that bowcaster is completely useless. what u need in jk is tactics speed sight and a conc... otherwise they will tramp over u (Narz would tramp over u anyway though)

If u ever tried to play anyone half decent at ff oasis they would em.. let's see er.. kill u. I mean they're on speed (force speed hehe) with their map on and they have a conc and force if u shoot bowcaster let me see.... they get out of the way with no problem and u get blown to hell....

Nf maybe a different story but most likely to get mauled in that too. I don't paly nf as i see it as quake with new maps and guns.

sabers were wuite pathetic unless u were palying another saber.

 

Unless they Zone has gone really REALLY terrible it's unlikely to get a bowcaster kill. i seen it twice and it was liek this it was me and my cousin in a team he force jhumped while holding the bowcaster and while he was in the air he just popped him while he was still stuned.

 

Also the bowcaster has been announced to have splash damage.

 

Can anyone remember the doom level designing? (Deu ahh... the memories.

They had the rocket launcher in the middle of the level and u had to make a run to get it while being fired at... good design indeed.

oasis may have tried this they did in bespin but oasis lacked it and made a big mistake by putting the surge right beside it once they got there u were done destruction and conc = death.

That is what made doom so good for it's time.. the level design (including mp) they had the chance taking.. make or break. Jk done this very well but lacked in the main level of mp.. oasis.

 

There was a time when i played JK hardcore all the time. very few people could beat me at FF guns then. Those that could didnt whipe the floor with me either.

 

My point is, i havent played JK in 3 years i jump in a NF game last night and get a couple kills with the caster right off the bat. Both times they were close range kills where the caster is a pretty good weapon. Shouldnt the people completely destroy me? I mean damn i havent played in 3 years.

 

hehe i am a a very good gamer man...i was in the original element for about a week before they broke up the first time...then i was in JKE basically until i quite playing jk/mots. Was on one of the best tribes teams there was. I know how to play noone totally mops the floor with me

[Agen]

I hardly ever got beat except on one offs.. i was actually quite amazing. Narz was about the only one who could get to 10 before i reached 7 but i wasn't saying they could kick my ass but i was saying their style of paly actually i said theirs because i do the same thing but i couldn't be bothered palying anyone to show them.

I haven't played jk in over 6 months now and i suppose i still rock. Also JK has gone on budget again and the newbies have saved the zone from getting rid of it.