Newbian, we've got lotsa dat!

[Boba Jim]

I agree with Wilhuf. Everybody needs to remember to be good sports first off. The newbies are needed as much or more than the experienced players. Without the newbies, the game stops being profitable for the makers and more like it won't be coming.

I always like to avoid humiliating newbies in a game. Nobody likes that and it's not really that much fun for me either. Instead I like to play around with them without killing them constantly. I'll sneak up behind them and shoot at their feet and run away to see if they can catch me, or I'll try to kill them with the weakest weapons. Point is, by doing that you're a good sport while at the same time helping the newbies learn and improving your own skills in other areas at the same time. Uncontrolled kill fests are just boring and rude. I'll boot people like that just cause they're lousy sports. The point's to have fun, not be a dick by racking up 50 kills before the newbies can even get to fighting amongst themselves.

 

[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Gonk Droid ]

[[HEL]Diablos]

"I'm more for a very steep learning curve in both singleplayer and multiplayer"

 

Agreed.

[ReAcToR]

Not humiliating them to the point where they think we are cheating. This happens on the Zone all of the time.

 

I don't think that the majority of good players intend to humiliate newbians. Experience players shouldn't be expected to 'hold back' their skills just because an inexperienced player joins the game. If we were to do that, it wouldn't be fun for us. If they join a game that consists of better players, they should leave and find a game where they can be amongst other beginners. I don't hold back just because someone with less skill joins my game, but I am almost always willing to give them pointers if they ask.

 

The point's to have fun, not be a dick by racking up 50 kills before the newbies can even get to fighting amongst themselves.

 

Some of us have spent years trying to master this game. Hundreds of hours of training. We play this game competively. Are we expected to pretend to be less-skilled just to not hurt some newbians feelings? If the newbians are playing for "fun" they shouldn't mind getting slapped around. They should be having fun winning and losing. I did. I used to get beat horribly when I was a newbian, as did most players, but that stage is long gone for alot of us. If people become "humiliated" over a game, they probably have something wrong with them. I'm not a psychologist, I'm a JK player. I play to be the best that I can be while having fun. If they can't handle being beat into submission, like I was when I was new, maybe they should learn not to take a game so seriously.

 

I suppose you guys are making valid points, but trying to make it the norm for experienced players to tone down for newbians, is just plain strange. Most of the people that join my games are newbians, and if I were to tone down on my skills just for them, I would be sacrificing potentially good pracice.

 

We were all newbians at one time, but we should be rewarded for becoming better, not by pretending to be less-skilled, but by playing the way we wish to play.

[KillerBee]

"I always like to avoid humiliating newbies in a game.

"Instead I like to play around with them without killing them constantly. I'll sneak up behind them and shoot at their feet and run away to see if they can catch me, or I'll try to kill them with the weakest weapons."

 

Erm the most humiliating thing there is, is being killed by a weak weapon!!

Its saying to the newbie,

"hey lookie I don't even need to use a proper gun to kill you, you suck!"

 

Its far fairer to the newbie to turn off things like seeing, lay off grip and destruction, and get in some conky aim practice. (albeit slow training)

and then give them tips.. I've shown numerous people the jumps round oasis..

 

if they ask nice I will usually leave.. no fun for me really wiping out newbies.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

It might seem a little sick, but newbies are good target practice. They have no clue what is going on and like to run around or saberfight while I blast them with Destruct and/or Conc.

[Wilhuf]

Best target practice is someone who is more experienced than you are.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

No, that's for overall training. For straight up conc target practice, it's nice to have something to shoot at that hasn't a chance of touching you. I don't have to worry about newbies killing me, so I can try out new shots and snipes almost at my leasure.

[Wilhuf]

We were all newbians at one time, but we should be rewarded for becoming better, not by pretending to be less-skilled, but by playing the way we wish to play.

 

Where is the reward in beating down someone who can't play as well as you? How do you become better by beating someone who is inexperienced?

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Beating the life outta newbies is a part of getting better. I would play games with WD_Rage, Breeze, WD_RaiN_, TRA_Exavier, and many others where I would get the snot beat outta me. But instead of whining and getting mad like most people do, I tried to learn what I could from the games. Then I would take what I learned and beat the crap outta the next guy I ran into hehe. Slaughtering newbies is a part of getting better, although there is a little more to it then you know.

[Kwup]

The first step to de-n00binization is using the keyboard + mouse. I can't tell you how many people use the keyboard alone.

[GonkH8er]

no kwup, i believe you cant, but what you CAN say is that some of the best jk-ers use keyboard only....

[ReAcToR]

Where is the reward in beating down someone who can't play as well as you? How do you become better by beating someone who is inexperienced?

 

No one is saying that beating newbians is a reward. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm simply stating that newbians irritate those of us who are experienced players by joining our games. I usually label my room with "Intermediate+ Only" so newbians won't join, but they insist on doing so anyways. I didn't invite them, I invited "Intermediates+" so why should I hold back on people that I don't even want in my games?

 

I didn't spend this many years training in this game, to hold back my skills just because some newbian insists on joining a game where he/she doesn't belong. If they join a game and see that I can kill them 6 times in 60 seconds, they should realize that this isn't the game for them and that they should join a game with people of similar skill. If they don't, you can't blame me for playing as I normally do. That's just not logical.

[Boba Jim]

I agree with that. All MP games should be categorized easily so players know where to go for "their" kind of game. The problem is even when the games are noted for a particular skill level, people always ignore it. Newbies coming into an advanced game aren't nearly as big a problem as experienced jerks coming into a beginner game just to kill everybody and try to feel like a hotshot. That sucks as bad as the idiots who wreck a good game by using cogs and stuff just to dork around.

 

While we're on the subject of controls, I agree that the mouse is essential for aiming. What I'm surprised by is the apparent lack of appreciation for the joystick. I've found time and time again that the best controls are all 3. Mouse on one side, keyboard in the middle, and joystick on the other side. Maybe it's cause I'm ambidextrous, but a good stick set up properly is much more powerful than the keyboard alone. You've got to have that r-axis and hat. I can run/walk strafing, peeking around corners, zooming, firing and changing weapons all at the same time without losing my aim. I only need to use the keyboard to taunt the people I kill or use inventory items. On second thought, that probably wouldn't work well for anybody else so you shouldn't try it.

 

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Gonk Droid ]

[Kwup]

A Joystick Mouse and Keyboard?

 

Jebus Krist boy, what did you eat!

[ReAcToR]

Newbies coming into an advanced game aren't nearly as big a problem as experienced jerks coming into a beginner game just to kill everybody and try to feel like a hotshot. That sucks as bad as the idiots who wreck a good game by using cogs and stuff just to dork around.

 

I totally agree with that. Experienced players should stick to hosting their own games and/or joining games with people on their skill-level. Usually, if I join a game that consists of people who are far less in skill I will either leave or teach them to use that nifty KICK command. It's suprising that many newbians don't know how to KICK people. I usually try and be even more helpful by giving them a link to Kicker Helper. Theses are some of the best ways that we can help newbians.

 

If newbians DO join OUR games and are getting slapped around real bad, if they show a good attitude, I don't see any reason for us to not give them a few tips. In FF, I usually explain the concept of item-timing, give them the times on each item with pull and pickup, show them a few jumps that will improve their play and teach them about the seeing + map combo.

 

Jebus Krist boy, what did you eat!

 

Sounds like he's eating his wheaties to me.

[Wilhuf]

If newbians DO join OUR games and are getting slapped around real bad, if they show a good attitude, I don't see any reason for us to not give them a few tips.

Now that's what I'm talkin' bout here. It's very rewarding to me to share tips with newcomers.

[Ki-Adi-Mundi]

Ahh... now everyone is happy. heh heh

 

I wonder what planet Newbians come from.

[Ki-Adi-Mundi]

Anyone up for a game on the Zone? My Zone name is SL_Ki_Adi_Mundi.

 

 

Be warned, I haven't played in a few months. Since... December I think.

 

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Ki-Adi-Mundi ]

[Red_XIIII]

12 button gamepad + mouse is the wayto go in Jk/Mots games, you sux till u can use a joy an a mouse together

[BeerMan]

I've been playing jk for 4 and a half years. It took me years to get good just like many others. I don't like a game where you master it in a few months and then never play it again. If a game takes years to get good at, people will probably stick with it as I have

 

Beer

[Guest Krayt Tion]

I treat others as I don’t mind being treated myself.

 

If I buy and start playing a multiplayer game that has been out for several months, let alone several years, I expect to get a$$r4p3D by my competition until I become familiar with the game. From the very beginning of my multiplayer computer gaming career I was ganked by the more experienced players. I see nothing wrong with that to this day.

 

There are games designed to drastically limit the effectiveness a player can have no matter how much time he puts into the game.

 

------------------

The Following text gives a semi-detailed example of such 'More Time Spent- Less Actual Strict Advantages Gained' game design in effect. This is not vital to my point and the impatient can skip below it to finish the post.

 

This came be seen very easy in massive multiplayer online roleplaying games (MMORPGs) currently in development; they have levels a character can gain by collecting experience points which can be gathered largely by killing monsters. You're going to have to kill more and more monsters as you advance each level and that takes time. At the same time you can also fight other players; the higher level you are the stronger you are going to be and the more abilities you gain. One of these games has territorial conquest, which you must fight other players for, as a main goal of the game. Now tell me, how are the players that buy this game months afterwards going to be able to fight others if it takes them forever to level up when they fight the monsters? One of the things the designers are doing is making it easier to achieve maximum level. This lets players 'catch up' to the maximum level of others players a lot more quickly so they can stand a chance.

 

This MMORPG, however, is based more on pre-defined abilities you can with out a doubt aquire if you put in the time. Twitch reflexes do not play a significant part in this game, very much unlike your average multiplayer FPS.

--------------------

 

If a player really is looking for a gaming genre that he will be new to and still be able to achieve intermediate/non-newb status in a short period of time he should look into some 2 player arcade games, like vanilla 2-player Pong, and stay pretty far away from FPSes in general.

 

I agree with what someone mentioned earlier about how JK 2 will signal the arrival of many Star Wars fans who are completely new to the world of the FPS. However, we shouldn't expect the ingrained learning curve of the FPS (including our very own JK2) to change overnight for these people.

 

The developers do have control over things that can make the FPS more complex overall. Even one of the comparatively simplistic FPSes, the original Quake 3, presents a learning curve that is very difficult for FPS noobs that are not even accustomed to aiming and moving at the same time.

 

If you are concerned that Raven might add too much to the complexity of the already learning-curve dependant FPS, I would say you have little to worry about. Just like JK, the one thing that will make this game more difficult than your average FPS is your saber and force powers. I don't have the exact quote on me but it appears Raven has already opted for a simpler and more streamlined system of force control. The saber movement is also nothing like the original PC Obi-Wan attempted; it is very much at this point (and unfortunately imo ) like the original JK. In short, you shouldn't be worried about JK2 being more complicated and less newbie-friendly then JK as far as controls are concerned. But was JK too complicated to begin with? I say no. More complicated than your average FPS? Yes. Worth the slightly higher learning curve? I think almost everyone here agrees Yes, the higher learning curve in JK was worth it.

 

This entire point is kind of moot anyways since we will have dedicated servers that can be advertised for every skill level, not to mention private passwords servers. Will "Xperts" host/join "Beginner” Games so they can beat the crap out of newbs? Yes. These types always will because their desire to win destroys any sense of integrity or fair play in their game. There is no amount of code that Raven can put in that can design around that.

 

Early on when the game first ships will everyone be thrown into the mix n00bs and newbs alike? Yep. Is this bad? Naw. If it was bad would it be worth it for Raven to make the game easier so people won't get trounced so bad? Hell no. Quicker learning from quicker poundings; time to play the game like every FPS you've ever played or just like your first one you've ever played if you are new.

 

Edited because using Force Long Post completely drained my mana, thereby preventing me from using Force Good Editing

 

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ]

[SithTexasDeath]

It does not matter if youre a newbie or not it depends on the first person game experienced. If you played doom or any other fps the skill comes in time dont base the development on the newbie factor. If you suk in the first placemay you should play somthing else other than fps..............

[KillerBee]

red_x, think of the keyboard as a 105 button joy pad, and most of us play like it..

Gonk droid.. I can do all of that using my keyb.. its just a matter of people dumping default cfgs.

[GonkH8er]

i agree with bee.... i used the keyboard for EVERYTHING for quite a long time... its possible to do everything if you have enough fingers

[KillerBee]

you need a mouse to.. keyb alone isnt enough!

but mouse + keyb = the only controllers needed for FPS..I used to play with a stick.. completed JK sp with one... but then playing with a mouse went back and did it 2* as quick and found all the secrets, as you can actually look about..