Reasons why the Lightsaber Needs to be Made Respectable

[Wilhuf]

Starting this thread to discuss opinion on the topic of the lightsaber, and how it should be improved in Jedi Outcast over the original Jedi Knight/MotS.

 

IMO the lightsaber in JK/MotS is neither feared nor respected, and with good reason. Lightsaber damage in both primary and secondary fire was very weak in relation to the risk taken in using it against a gunner. This was true in almost any situation where the more powerful guns (such as the concussion and rail detonator) were available.

 

Obviously the JK/MotS saber couldn't block rails or concussion blasts. Add to this the immobilizing power of grip, and very high force speed, and the lightsaber as a melee weapon became really more of a novelty than an effective weapon, compared with other heavy weapons.

 

Moreover, the unusual target bubble, which varied depending on network conditions, made the lightsaber a less than reliable weapon online.

 

Consequently, in Jedi Knight, the lightsaber was rarely if ever the weapon of first resort, although in some cases it was prefered to some of the weaker guns, such as the bryar and bowcaster.

 

Straw poll: please let us know if the lightsaber was really your weapon of first resort, say in a Canyon Oasis or Spaceport FF game. If so, why? Be honest, now.

 

So, my recommendations for the lightsaber for Jedi Outcast:

 

1. When a Jedi is going to risk being shot by running close up to his/her gunner target, the damage the saber should dish out needs to be much greater than it was in Jedi Knight.

 

2. The saber attack speed needs to be increased over Jedi Knight. When under fire, Jedis should be able to run in quickly and hit quickly.

 

3. Locational damage for attacks with the saber needs to be supported (e.g., a hit to the head will do a certain percentage more damage than a hit to the arm).

 

4. Lightsaber blocking against heavy weapons such as concussion rounds (assuming the concussion rifle will be available in JKO) needs to be supported. The saberist will need to be able to return the heavy fire to sender.

 

I do not mean that the lightsaber should be the be-all-end-all Über-BFG with one hit kills. However, the JKO lightsaber should be a weapon that will make the gunner actually retreat or take cover when attacked.

 

This will help create a weapon that is both feared and respected.

 

Thoughts?

[nykel007]

Some good points, and I agree. But what more do you want to cut your opponent to fine dust?

[Wilhuf]

Yes, well that is the point, now. The heavy guns (especially the concussion rifle and rail detonator) in JK/MotS can grind their targets to dust. The lightsaber isn't nearly as effective in this department, in my opinion.

 

Not that the lightsaber isn't fun, it defintely is. It just isn't really a powerful weapon compared with JK/MotS heavy guns.

 

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[rolsen]

Very true. I agree with you completely. Seeing a Jedi Knight coming at you with a lightsaber should be very intimidating. Just look at what Raven is doing with the stormtrooper AI. They see a Jedi and go "Oh crap." heh.

[Guest Kettch]

You should be able to block all energy bolts as well as deflect rockets and missiles with your force, perhaps you could send it back to its sender.

 

There should be One-Hit kills with the lightsaber (realistic), the block skills of the player should be important, i don'T like to the PC to autoblock incoming bolts, and let something throught. As I have mentioned earlier Jedis can block every shot fired at them, (see Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in action, they also have protected the queen (hangar battle)form incoming bolts.

 

So it depends on the player if the gunner is better than a lightsabre-wielder or not.

 

[ed_silvergun]

Originally posted by Wilhuf:

<STRONG>Straw poll: please let us know if the lightsaber was really your weapon of first resort, say in a Canyon Oasis or Spaceport FF game. If so, why? Be honest, now.</STRONG>

 

Yes, it was. And it was bloody frustrating at times when folks insisted on whipping a concussion rifle out on you. I used it simply because I bought Jedi Knight because I wanted the "Jedi experience". I just preferred it. But yes, I agree absolutely, it could get highly annoying, and I often found myself having to take out another weapon just to stay alive for more than 2 seconds against some gunners.

 

<STRONG>Lightsaber damage in both primary and secondary fire was very weak in relation to the risk taken in using it against a gunner. This was true in almost any situation where the more powerful guns (such as the concussion and rail detonator) were available. </STRONG>

 

I wouldn't say that damage was particularly weak, primary fire was, but secondary wasn't. The problems for me were a) it didn't block well, and b) there was no ranged attack facility.

 

The best solutions to this in my opinion are to increase the blocking ability of the saber and to add the option to throw it (as Raven have done). I'm not too keen on seeing the attack power greatly increased as secondary fire was practically one-hit instant death anyway. Remember that Luke took a saber hit and survived in ESB, so I think it's a bit simplistic to say it should always be one-hit = death. Instead, let's use the advanced collision-detection of the GHOUL system to have different hit zones.

 

For example, (and you've said something very similar, I see) a hit to the head or torso could be instant death, a hit to the arm would cause x amount of damage, a hit to the leg would cause the character to slow down, etc. This would be more "realistic", IMO. I think, Wilhuf, that your concerns could be addressed by use of better collision-detection models and improved saber blocking (ie. saber blocks everything except explosives). If the more powerful guns were toned down a bit too, then the game would be far more playable.

 

There are two ways to go about this: you can either try to encourage more people to use the saber, or you can try to discourage them from using the guns, not by making the saber more powerful, necessarily, but by making the saber more rewarding to use (eg. better death animations etc.).

 

<STRONG>I do not mean that the lightsaber should be the be-all-end-all Über-BFG with one hit kills. However, the JKO lightsaber should be a weapon that will make the gunner actually retreat or take cover when attacked.</STRONG>

 

The problem is, it already does take 98% of your health in secondary fire mode. Now, you can't really assume a player will always have armour, so to improve much beyond this without turning it into a one-hit one-kill weapon would be difficult.

 

 

So basically, I agree with you on everything, except I'm not too sure about increasing the saber's power (I'd go for speed and accuracy first) and to your wishlist I'd add the ranged saber attach we know we'll be getting in the form of "saber throw". I think that would all greatly improve the saber as a weapon.

[Astrakhan]

You have to remember that it is dangerous to make the saber too powerful, given that it is free (given to every player upon spawn), it can't hurt the wielder (like a rocket can), and has unlimited ammo. Just a caveat that those all are existing advantages to the saber already, before you start improving its effectiveness over JK1.

 

Granted, that doesn't mean that making the saber cool is a bad thing... everyone wants to use a lightsaber 'cause it's a Star Wars game. I always thought that using the saber should be a different style of play, no better or worse than the people that grab some rail ammo and start firing. In that sense I have strong hopes that Raven can strike up that balance, and make the saber powerful without turning it into an uber-weapon.

 

Did anyone else play Heretic II? That was a Raven game, and I remember that a great deal of people ran around in multiplayer just using the staff (their default melee weapon that can be charged up), and doing quite well with it...

 

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Astrakhan ]

[Wilhuf]

Good points. What I notice is that many gamers want to play with the saber but don't precisely because of the power of the gun. I think the fact that sabersists usually find themselves blasted by a rail or concussion round has a lot to do with how (un)popular the lightsaber is.

 

And what I am trying to find is a way to improve the 'fun factor' of the saber, to motivate its use. I don't believe better animations will fix this problem completely, but it will certainly help, no doubt. Animations wont make much of a difference if the saber still cannot stand up to the gun, IMO.

 

It seems some of us agree faster, location damage saber attacks and better blocking are a step in the right direction.

 

Also note that if the overall pace of gameplay in JKO is slowed compared with JK/MotS, the speed, splash range, and power of concussion and rail (again assuming they will even be available) will likely be toned down as well. So, relatively speaking, the saber then becomes more powerful.

 

Now, since the lightsaber is (presumably in JKO) free to all I doubt there will be a fundamental balance problem if the lightsaber is beefed up. Everyone will have access to it, and even if carrying a weaker projectile weapon, gamers can switch over to the lethal lightsaber in self defense.

 

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[Denise]

The lightsaber was always, always my first choice. I viewed using the conc as a personal failure on those occasions it was necessary.

 

The "problem" only popped up when you ran into those Quake players that gunned all day whilst marrying Speed and Jump. Anyone can do that fairly easily and it makes the lightsaber a great deal harder to connect with. Any other tactic is easily countered with a saber, just not that "I need my pills to come down from hyperactive!!!" playstyle.

 

And my response, personally, would be to make at least speed more expensive, and probably jump as well. TPM provides us with only one example of speed in action (running from our first droidakas) and even in the same movie it wasn't used at the most crucial moment. This suggests that Obi-Wan was too exhausted to make like the flash through the forcefields in order to rejoin with Qui-Gon.

 

If you leave the effect the same but make it so that you can't tape the buttons down (figuritively speaking) all through the game, you'll see a slower, more thoughtful, less twitchy game all around.

 

Of course, there are plenty of people that like the existing style of gameplay and you'll be hearing from them shortly, no doubt. Just my opinion, folks, be gentle.

[acdcfanbill]

well, your charcter should automatically dodge some of the bolts and most of the rails( they move so slow, you can almost dodge already!!) but you should be able to deflect rails, and non-energy projectiles with the force. i mean your chacter (if Jedi) should do those automatically. and block some, so a Jedi wouldnt get hit near as often as a non-jedi. this would also even out the gunners/saberists.

[Wilhuf]

"I need my pills to come down from hyperactive!!!" playstyle.

 

Lol! Good one. I bet this captures the essence of what Steve Shaw, creator of MotS, was talking about when he described Jedi Knight as running around at 'uncontrollable speeds.' (Although I actually like that kind of play from time to time.)

 

Ok, so to simplify some of the suggestions to make the lightsaber more attractive here is a bulleted list™:

 

Suggested Improvements:

• Faster Saber Attack Rate
  
• Location Based Saber Damage
  
• Increased Saber Damage
  
• Ability to block heavy weapons fire
  
• Toned Down Speed and Jump (in decreased magnitude and/or increased Force cost)
  
• Effective ranged saber attack (improved saber throw)
  
• Better lightsaber animations
  
• More lightsaber attack moves/combinations
  

[wardz]

If those things get included Wilhulf I will be a very happy bunny..

 

wardz

 

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: wardz ]

[acdcfanbill]

more like a waskely wabbit!

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Every hear the term "like bringing a knife to a gun fight?" Welp on some levels (Oasis is best example) this could be said about the saber. It's simply game dymamics that many causual players never did grasp. Oh many times have I laughed hard when some one with a saber charged me what I had the conc...

 

To be honest, this whole topic is a bit useless. If you read the reviews you find that there will be a saber only option for JK2. If you want to saber use it, if you want to gun then don't. But don't complain when you get blasted by in a game where guns are allowed.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

BTW, if anything speed and jump should be made more powerfull, something to give us hardcores a challenge. I personaly can use speed 4 + constant strafe run to do things most causual gamers didn't think possible. Speed 4 almost seems slow to me now.

 

I still say that if you what speed turned down, then play a lower force game.

 

There are many reasons why the saber shouldn't be respected. Go read posts on the crappy netcode of JK, or about lag cheating, modem tweaking, downloading, and outright cogging. NF sabs doesn't require the reflexes of speed 4, the multitasking, watching the 2d map, large #s of hotkeys, item timing, or aim. No wonder why so many newbies do it. It's just all lag anyway.

[Denise]

Right on cue...

 

There's a bit of a problem for you "l33t h4rdc0r3 g4m3rz" these days, though, Torment. You're not only a minority, you're a minority within a minority, and hardcore players with your particular ethos are a third division yet*. Developers who want to sell games have to play to the casual gamers' tastes these days. I'd love to find a compromise solution, and since Raven, not moi, are the developers maybe they will come up with something good...

 

But if it comes down to it it's the "hard core" that's going to get steamrollered in favor of the larger crowd (just ask the "hard core" BattleTech fans within the MechWarrior community)... so you're right, there's not much point to a great deal of argument on this topic.

 

<small>*See, less than one in four of those that buy a normal game title will actually play it online. Most of those that do don't play regularly enough to consider themselves hard-core, and even of those relative few who do, not all equate raw reflexes directly with "skill".</small>

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Denise ]

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Well, the one thing that really set JK appart from Q2 was the type of people who play it. Quake players tend to be more competitive, while many of the JKers are just playing the game for the star wars experience. The force dynamics made the gap between casual and hardcore JKer absolutely huge, I'd say more then any other game.

 

It doesnt really matter what JK2 is like, since you will still have the two camps; casual and hardcore. Hardcores will always play to win, and causuals will acuse hardcores of cheating and complain if they don't "play like it is in the movies."

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: -WD- ToRMeNt ]

[Denise]

Nobody said a word about cheating, but heck, I've been called a "cheater" more times than I can count... and I'm not a cheater, or anything better than an average player. I don't even play like a Jedi Ping-pong ball. Your play style has nothing to do with that at all.

 

It'll help not to be dealing with a game engine that can be hacked with your eyes crossed, but one never escapes that sort of silliness no matter what the environment.

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Denise ]

[Tap[RR]]

Its not about the damage or being able to deflect conc's, its about how YOU play. If you like running around using guns, fine! Just as long as the saber has a CHANCE against these heavy weapons. I also thought being able to use a jetpack (maybe limit it class wise *like bounty hunters and light infrantry*) against jedi's it would help balance sabers and gunners, cause a jetpack would give manuvering ability forcing the jedi to stay alert and face the gunner at all times. Of course the jetpack fuel should appear every like 2 mins, that would help balance it out. Heh just a thought

[Wilhuf]

So, torment, your recommendation on how to make the lightsaber more respectable is 'just don't play with lightsabers in a gun battle.'

 

Somehow I don't think Raven can do much with that 'hardcore' advice.

 

So, at least one gamer here says we should simply keep lightsabers and guns on separate games altogether. His contribution is that we shouldn't even be talking about how to deal with the 'imbalance' between guns and lightsabers.

 

Sorry to dissapoint ya torment, but we are going to talk about how the lightsaber can be made respectable.

 

Actually torment's comment about 'bringing a knife to a gunfight' is a good one. Sounds like torment also agrees that the lightsaber is indeed underpowered compared with the heavy weapons.

 

Bringing a knife to a gunfight is exactly what it seems like in JK/MotS when someone brings a lightsaber to a gun battle. The weapon is supposed to be a lightsaber, the lightning-fast weapon that can dismember enemies, cut through solid steel, and block laser blasts. Not a toothpick!

 

BTW This thread is not going to become a 'guns rule, sabers suck' topic. We can talk about that somewhere else, but not here. The topic here is 'how do we make the saber more respectable and why.'

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[Syndrix]

"We can talk about that somewhere else". Not we cant Wilhuf, because JK2 isn't out yet.. Oh you where refering to JK, sorry. Well thats debatable anyway but as you say, thats for somewhere else.

 

Anyway I would hazard a guess that its a moot point. In the press release and numerous "previews" that can be found scattered around the internet it is mentioned that "the lightsaber will play a bigger role in JK2". But that is off topic.

 

Wilhuf, I think the Q3A modified engine will go a long way to improving the usefulness of the saber. The things in the bulleted list™ are all very much needed for a feared saber, indeed. But some of the problem was due to the poor net code and the the unusual target bubble.

 

- Increased Saber Damage

- Location Based Saber Damage

 

One thing that should be kept in mind is the saber still has to do a fair amount of damage even with a leg or arm hit. It should do increased damage if hit in a more vital location but even the lowest damage location should do a large amount. It is a light saber after all, even an arm hit would be agony.

 

Posted by ToRMeNt

Speed 4 almost seems slow to me now.

You just proved the point your arguing, if you are able to use speed too frequently or for too long, then it loses it bonus and becomes bland. No longer a special ability, it becomes something everyone uses all the time. Pointless.

 

Posted by ed_silvergun

Remember that Luke took a saber hit and survived in ESB, so I think it's a bit simplistic to say it should always be one-hit = death

 

Ed, I hear you, It would be unfair to take the saber from a below average weapon to a god-like stick of... ToRMeNt perhaps? But it has to do a fair amount, a saber to the chest is basically going to take most of your health. The only reason Luke survived is because Darth took lukes hand off and didnt get a better hit.

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

[Wilhuf]

Actually that the lightsaber will play a bigger role in JK2 has been hinted at in a few articles is a good point and is right on topic, Syndrix.

 

This may imply that Raven is aware of the flaws in the original Jedi Knight lightsaber and is doing something about it. Or maybe they just like melee games a lot (e.g., Heretic II), or maybe a little of both.

 

It's definitely true that JK's network code is responsible for some of the lightsaber problems. I was going to add 'improve network code' to the bulleted list™, but as that is already a given with q3 tech, I didn't include it.

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[Syndrix]

Well yes, it is on topic, I really meant that talking about guns will rule was off topic but somehow thats not what I typed. I believe that it is that Raven are aware of the flaws in the original Jedi Knight lightsaber and will indeed doing something about it.

 

This time around Raven will be looking at MP a lot more than LEC were. Not that LEC didnt, but looking at the sheer size of the single player and the FMV's of JK and its clear they focused on SP. With internet access cheaper than 1997 and an ever increasing online presence, Raven will have to vastly improve MP. This certainly will include that ever debated topic balance (lightsaber in particular).

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

[WD_ToRMeNt]

You just really arn't getting it. I mean why did the english win so many wars in mideval times? Because they shredded thier enemies with longbows before they got close. It's simple logic that works in real life and games.

 

Even if heavy weapons can be deflected, I will still laugh if some one tries to saber me. It's simple to just fire at a wall or the ground infront/behind or to the side of them (skilled players always to that anyway). Thus, you don't block it with saber and you still take a nice bite of the splash damage pie. I backpeddle (keeping you out of sab range) then kill you with splash damage.

 

Not only that, but you have to be facing in the direction of the person to block. It could take you a couple second to see the person and to line up for a saber block. If the shooter is good you will already have taken lots of damage before you turn to use saber. If the person has speed or jump then standing and trying to block would prolly be suicide since you would be out manouvered.

 

Hey, dont get me wrong. I think of myself as a FF saberist. But when I play a guns map, I use guns.

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: -WD- ToRMeNt ]

[DeathBoLT]

I think problems could be sufficently handled by:

 

-Boosting Singlefire damage up to Doublefiredamage. Rate of fire is good, damage is good.

 

-Damage should be area specific(head shots, etc.), but don't forget shields. You can't always compare saber damage in the movies to saber damage done in the game because, due to Kyle's mercenary background, of shields. None of the movie Jedi had 'em. Thus take it into consideration. Full armor should give you some breathing room as far as a saber hit.

 

***Blocking is automatic, but previews specifically said that, for a fraction of your force power, you can send back at the attacker - so blocking will be automatic but not only blocking it, but directing it back at them will be a force power.***

 

 

-The ability to block heavy weapons is good, but also take into consideration: if you can deal splash damage, you're gonna put your shots in front of them, out of their saber range so they catch the damage without putting you in danger of having the thing sent right back at ya.

 

BTW, if anything speed and jump should be made more powerfull, something to give us hardcores a challenge.

 

You REALLY want a challenge eh? Heres one: Learn something new. Keepin Force Speed and Force Jump 4 star+ is same old same old for you. Even making it to allow you to charge faster and leap even higher is still putting it in the same ballpark as your old strategies. Limiting your force jump and force speed ability will lead to using it for tatical maneuvers. It will result in a whole new jumble of strategies to be created. Something I know, being a competitive gamer myself, is an exciting prospect. Unless I'm mistaking hardcore for something else, and it really means 'stuck in a rut', I'm sure your excited at the prospect of learning something new and pioneering strategies like WDs did b4 you.

Jedi Knight FF = was fun, but gets old year after year.

Btw, the learning curve is only so high because of the ammount of time FF experts have had time to squeeze advanced jumps and strategies out of JK. Quake games didn't have 4-5 year waiting periods in-between new games. I read strategy guides made 3-4 years ago for Jedi Knight, and they aren't that hard to figure out how to do the tricks on your own. In the time Force community had o create enough strategies to make a large learning curve, most other games would have been succeeded by sequal titles.

 

 

- Acrobatics and wide variety of avaiable swings and maneuvers should be decided by the ammount of force you put into 'Force Melee'. If you put alot into this, you ought to be able to jump higher, run fastter.

 

-4-star jumps and 4-star runs should be done sepearately and cost more - I mean how often did you see force jumps and force enhanced speed in the movies? With rarity. Used only in situations to escape or get some where that you couldn't get to normally. And obviously mana eating. Why didn't Obi force speed on over to qui-gon? He had several tall leaps to make that might drain someone's mana reserves..

 

Hope I haven't gone off too much topic with how force should be...