Sniping in JKO: More than a Secondary thought?

[Guest Krayt Tion]

This thread for discussing the implications of sniping in JKO.

 

Last I heard, the only sniping in the game at this point is from a standard scoped stormtrooper rifle. Since there is going to be a stun baton it is unlikely that the secondary fire for the stormie rifle will be a stun effect; we are most likely looking at the sniper function being assigned to secondary fire for that weapon.

 

One might argue that this is convenient- why make a separate gun for sniping when there is precedence for one already with the stormtroopers rifle? Why not keep the space free for another weapon? What is the harm in that?

 

Ah. I’m glad you asked.

 

The harm is simply the possibility that permitting sniper fire as only a secondary mode of fire reflects directly on Raven’s feelings on the importance of such a gunning ability. What consideration are they actually giving it? Secondary placement, secondary concern?

 

I cannot and do not claim that the placement of the sniping ability in the secondary fire of an average storm trooper rifle is the be-all end-all indication of Raven’s stance (or lack there of) on sniper fire. With some tweaking, a secondary mode of fire on a stormie rifle could be just as formidable as a serious, fully-dedicated sniper rifle.

 

However, I would feel much more comfortable about sniper fire being a viable combat option and a serious consideration if was it was given its own separate, dedicated gun. Why? If it is one of the ‘Big 9 or 10’ weapons probably in the game, you can bet it is getting the full treatment it deserves as a noticeable stand-alone.

 

Other Issues

 

Why do you want sniper fire to be so well represented? What place does sniper fire have in the fast-paced deathmatch environment?

 

Well, there are a few things I can say to this.

 

1) We do not know how the action will be balanced in JKO multiplayer through classes, personalities, or any other possible combination of combat settings, which could support a strong sniping role. Next month we shall be able to address this better after details of this sort will supposedly be revealed in PC Gamer.

 

2) Sniping is in the game. Shouldn’t the mere inclusion of this mode be enough for me to want it to be done well? I can’t help myself.

 

3) I like to snipe.

 

Suggestions and Improvements for Sniping in JKO

 

The fun section. I want to start a list outlining how we would help sniping become an effective, fun playstyle in JKO multiplayer. I would like this list to represent a good balance of gameplay and physics/Star Wars appropriateness, so please do not be top-heavy with one or the other. If you must focus on one of those things please choose gameplay. I will try and keep this as concise as possible and I suggest you do the same with your suggestions.

 

Let’s start with what we know. Mysteries of the Sith issues:

 

Sniping in MotS pales in comparison to what kind of sniping is available to us now on some very fundamental levels.

 

The Sight: when looking into your Scope on the stormie rifle in MotS you were greeted with a big fat dot indicating the center of your sniper vision. I should really call this thing a blob; it and the brackets surrounding it where extremely thick and bloated. A better sniper sight would allow for as much scoped vision as possible while still showcasing some solid aiming markings. The layout of the markings displayed through the scope should also be drastically different from those weak ones put forth into MotS.

 

What looks like the sniper scope displayed in this early screenshot is a step in the right direction but it could definitely use some tweaking. How about some longer crosshairs coming from the center?

 

The Blast: long, thick, and relatively slow. There was a lot wrong with the MotS sniper rifle in this regard. When combined, these drawbacks completely betrayed the true power of the sniper.

 

It was very easy for me to track that blaster bolt across the screen, quickly leading to the location of the sniper. The big, bright bolt was a dead give away if I saw someone being shot at. Unless your sniper has fast legs, remaining hidden is one of the indisputable requirements for a sniper who wants to live.

 

At the very least, further increase the speed of the bolt. Again, the slower it is the easier it is to track the blast back to sender. It is also harder to actually track your target. Most sniper rifles are basically instantaneous hit weapons for very good reason, even those featured in sci-fi games.

 

The snipers blaster bolt should be narrower for greater precision. Given the range, you should be able to place that bolt into someone’s forehead instead of being forced to spew forth a thick blast that will completely burn off their entire head and most of their upper torso. We need greater aiming manipulation through precision.

 

Something to consider while reading all this- if you find it hard to believe that the scoped stormie rifle can deliver the kind of bolts sniper fire needs to be good and proper, perhaps we need to look elsewhere. A true, dedicated sniper rifle might make more sense in this regard.

 

Accompanying force powers: this deals more with the wielder then the sniper weapon itself, obviously. It wasn’t a bad attempt in MotS to give the Scout class invisibility. I have my qualms with this as well though; while the invisibility particle effect was helpful, the sound it made was a dead give away in many of the more close-quarter maps. Which brings me to my final suggestion for now to make sniping respectable in JKO...

 

Maps.

 

Above all a good sniper map can make the difference between the sniper being the hunter or the hunted.

 

The difference between the Sniper being the Bear in the river or the salmon swimming upstream that he is trying to catch.

 

Will we see at least one or two multiplayer maps that specifically cater to snipers? While it can be argued that there were some halfway decent places to snipe in MotS they were few and far between. Play some real sniper-favored maps from many games today and you will see the difference. In the end, the kind of maps that we’ll see in JKO will indeed reflect directly on Raven’s feelings on the sniper rifle.

 

That about does it for my suggestions. I guess we shall see whether Sniper Fire becomes a legitimate force to be reckoned with or just some inconsequential fluff tacked on to JKO multiplayer.

[wardz]

gee, K-Ti have you been taking lessons off Kurgan?

 

 

There are some good points there, especially with the speed of the blaster bolt, I noticed that when playing as well, it hardly makes you a sniper when people can see you shooting.

 

wardz

[wikedjedi]

the thing i dont like about mots sniping is that, you move the same speed with the scope on and off which takes the feel off that your really sniping, so manily you would have 2 snipers straffing try to hit each other or circle around each other. it would be fast pace, but i didn't like it much, hopefully they'll make it where you have to stop and shoot and get sniper spots in the level, that seems better to me, dont know about ya'll.

wiked

[SlowbieOne]

The bolts from the sniper rifle in MotS were instant. I don't see why the secondary fire on the blaster in JKO would be any different.

 

I like the idea of the blaster doubling as a sniper rifle. I would rather see a new kind of weapon rather than have a stand alone sniper rifle. The more the better.

 

Or better yet, why not make ALL weapons able to zoom in and out as in Star Trek Elite Force. Raven made it in that game, and it worked rather well.

[KillerBee]

hmm imho the sniper rifles blast should be visible, its easier to judge lag with a visible projectile, eg the rail.. and its not a good idea to make a sniper able to be totally camoflauged.

JK imho never suited the sniper style, it was too fast for that, it was all mid range combat techniques, with a bit of melee..

but that doesnt mean jk2 has to be, many people like sniping, I myself personally dispise it, but sniper weapons rails and the ut sniper rifle are very good for more standard combat to, point blank rail in the face for anyone?

 

I would think the addition of something like the sandpeoples sniper rifle would be good..

projectile based so it couldnt be deflected, but another have to be accurate but gets round the sabre weapon.. but dealing less damage/sec then a blaster sniper weapon which could be deflected.

[KillerBee]

I don't think they made the all weapons have zoom in EF, I think they just didnt bother to take it out of q3..

 

honestly with scripting you can churn out luvly zoom scripts, that allow the scroll wheel to change fov etc..

[OnlyOneCanoli]

Lots of good points.

 

First of all, I have to agree about the bolt itself. It should not look like your average stormtrooper blaster bolt. I'd prefer something extremely narrow, yet long, traveling at fairly fast speeds.

 

The next thing I'd like to bring up is the scope. I am not sure, but don't many standard military scopes have varying degrees for the scope? I am not up to snuff on my military hardware, but don't most go from, say 1x to 10x to 100x (my point here being, there are no in between levels, only 1, 10, and 100)? In JKII, I'd prefer the sniper weapon to be it's own gun with a computer enhanced scope. You can zoom into any degree you'd like. You would not be limited to a few scoping views, but would be able to use keys/mouse scroll to adjust it to your liking.

 

Another thing. I may get some abuse from this, but I would like to *not* be one shot kills with the sniper rifle. Unless JKII gameplay is extremely different from the original, the gameplay is about arcade play. I'd rather not have one sniper take out an entire rosterfull of players with one shot kills. Imagine having a saber duel with another person or two, and everyone being annihilated in a matter of seconds because of a sniper. Is it cheap? No; unless there is some stipulation against doing so in that particular game. But is it fun? IMO, no. This is not Counter-Strike sniping. If it *was* going to be a one shot kill situation, Raven would have to implement a bobbing head/moving arms effect--let's think level 1 or maybe level 2 Deus Ex rifle sniping. Which in it's own way, would make sniping more sim like--making it a no-win situation from where I sit.

 

I disagree with SlowbieOne's comment about making all weapons having a zoom feature, like in ST:VEF. That does not seem to fit into the SW universe, at least not to me. Han Solo looking down the scope of his Blastech? Yeah right.

 

I stated this earlier, but I would prefer a sniper rifle to be a totaly separate weapon. A secondary fire, I cannot think of one at this current time. Can anybody else think of anything decent? Even so, I'd prefer it to be its own gun. However, since the stormtrooper rifles seem to have scopes on them, it would lead me to believe that they will make a stormtrooper rifle/sniper combo once again. But if they do it right, I suppose I'd have no problem with it.

[KillerBee]

just cause han doesnt use it, it doesnt mean it should be an option

/me waits to use zoom wif his light sabre, p33r..

 

as a technologically advanced race I think variable zoom as suits the need would be better then stepped zoom..

UT still has the best scope imho

[Guest Krayt Tion]

wardz- Kurgan was once the master of the Force Long Post... but always two there are... and I have learned much.

 

wikedjedi- That is a good point. Running around with a sniper rifle aiming as steadily as you would while lying still is bloody ridiculous from almost any standpoint. Sniping in JKO should not be suited for any kind of close-quarters fast-paced battles, mainly because of the zoom. Granted it is plenty possible to nail someone point blank with a variety of sniping weapons even if they aren't zoomed. I've done it plenty of times in other games. But there are plenty of guns that are better suited for single-shot point blank instagibbing then a sniper rifle. Let the sniper rifle concentrate on what it does best- taking people out from a distance while zoomed in.

 

SlowbieOne- The sniper blasts in MotS were far from instant. How is being able to follow your blaster bolt from your gun all the way to your target instantaneous? That takes additional time. God lord that MotS sniper blast was a freakin car in rush hour traffic compared to most of the sniper guns in games today.

 

So I don't see how you can possibly make that claim. Any time you can visibilty track the entire movement of your projectile or blast that is obviously not instantaneous.

 

I wouldn't want all my weapons to zoom, at least not so extensively. That's what makes the sniper rifle special and fun.

 

KillerBee- I don't think judging lag is a good enough reason for showing the sniper blast. You've got plenty of other weapons to use if you want to do that.

 

I don't want snipers to be completely invisible, that would be unbalanced. Camouflage is a different story. Some thermo camouflage or something of that sort still sounds like it is going to be necessary to help the sniper out.

 

Generally speaking, when snipers are seen, all hell breaks loose. People love to nail snipers with a vengeance. The sniper's ability to remain out of sight and keep a good distance from their target is basically all the protection they have. I would be careful in taking that away from them.

 

I like the idea of the tusken sniper rifle. In fact I believe I have brought that up before. The Tusken Sniper Rifle is not energy projectile-based so yes, it looks like you could shoot it directly through someone's personal energy shield for a direct hit. I would think however that the projectle would be just as blockable by the saber as an energy blast, if not more so. In either case I've always wanted to use one of those Tusken Snipes and that would make an excellent stand alone sniper rifle.

 

42 Boy- That varying scope degrees system sounds pretty good from where I stand. You could hotkey a certain zoom distance to use on your favorite sniping maps. Otherwise you could just hold right click into a steady zoom ala UT as KillerBee mentioned. That is much better than the pre-defined aka stepped zooming distances you don't have any choice about in some games. This would be a great example of how an elite assassin's sniper gun of choice might function, in my mind.

 

I agree with you regarding there not being one-shot kills, with one expection. I have been taking into account the fact that JKO has some serious deathmatchy roots and I do not seek to make the sniping be mismatched with the rest of the game by being uber realistic. Limb shots should not kill in one hit and I would be willing to require two sniper shots to the torso for a kill. However, the infamous headshot should be instant death. It is usually not an easy thing to do, depending on the game.

 

And something additional for you all to consider:

 

As far as Jedi are concerned, sniping will already be difficult against them if they can auto-block any sniper fire in front of them with their saber (even if they have no clue a sniper has them targeted). The only shot a sniper would have against a Jedi (Saberist) is on the backside. Not to mention the Jedi's Force Speed is likely to be in effect. I'm willing to accept this unless people can think of way snipers can be more effective against Jedi. But should they? Sniping a Jedi could be great bragging rights.

 

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ]

[OnlyOneCanoli]

Head shot kills, that's fine. But anything else being a one shot kill would prove detrimental to my emotional stability.

 

And the Jedi thing should be interesting. You'd have to be good to kill them, most likely. And a Jedi having his saber turned off, knowing where a sniper is, and then timing the sniper's shot and activating his saber, deflecting the bolt back at him would be an interesting event. The sniper wouldn't know what hit him. If I ever snipe, I think I'll let the Jedi be.

[KillerBee]

Krayt Tion:

 

lags quite important when sniping tho, and you dont want to be changing weapons whilst in the middle of a sniper battle.. q3 netcode with delays before you fire is a pain.. although you can fool it you still get problems..

 

snipers are annoying, and a good sniper shouldnt be sitting still he should fire then move.. the blast projectile stops him camping, and makes him a proper assaulting sniper..

a cloak or something would be useful maybe as a nfer ability, along with grapples and jet packs in the balancing nfers with force list.. tho It would have to be the stand still to gain most effectiveness type..

 

I bought up the tuscan sniper rifle back on o-wk.net..

 

imho I dont see how it can be blocked..

the blaster rounds bounce of a magnetic containment field of the sabre some how..

 

the slug would just go through it..

it wouldnt be in the blade long enough to melt it..

[Guest Krayt Tion]

Good snipers should fire then move? Not if they have a good spot. So long as you are well hidden and have plenty of distance between you and your targets (at the very least out of spam range) you can stay there as long as you want.

 

Sniper camping vital movement chokepoints is very effective and very easy, all while staying in the same spot. There are also certain angles where you can see them before they ever see you. So long as your aim isn't total crap, you're good to go, because there are places where you can always get first shot. There are many things map makers can do to help the snipers out in JKO.

 

All in all that statement you made is completely relative to not only the game but certains levels of the same game. That definitely is not true as universal rule. Sometimes you need to switch it up your sniping spots rapidly (even every shot), other times you can basically start cooking dinner.

 

If I need to see how the lag is, I'll just look at the people moving around. I wouldn't sacrafice a much needed sniper benefit just to better judge how the lag is really going to affect my shots (lag which won't be that big of a problem to begin with).

 

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ]

[Tap[RR]]

With the q3 engine, you'd only need to worry about your ping!! Not the other guys ping, you lag, he see's you as a nice still target waiting to be fragged, and your non lagged opponent can kill you while lagged, unlike jk, were the hits dont take place cause of one person lagging badly. And sure if your lagged to hell your not gonna be able to move,much less shoot, so how could you snipe with heavy heavy lag? I see the snipers having a harder time with jedi than non force users, jedi can use force see, but lack long range attacks, so i'd say a sniper is a match for a jedi, but in advantage the jedi can block the sniper bolts, and see the sniper, ( if the sniper isnt too far, again another snipers advantage, also a strategy to being a good sniper) and the sniper has long range shooting, and thats what keeps him protected from a jedi's saber, or force pull.

 

[ August 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tap[RR] ]

[KillerBee]

Krayt Tion:

A good sniper uses what he is given..

if the game design allows him to sit and camp then its not his fault that this is the optimal tactic. the game can be designed tho to test the sniper, by making it so he has to move, which imho is a far more enjoyable form of sniping, were you only get 2 or 3 frags from a place before up and moving..

as you say its relative, relative to how the game and map handles sniping, and I prefer the constant moving form.

also level design where sniping points are deliberatly put in isnt always good.. seeing they are usually blatently obvious and so everyone knows where the sniper is and how to dislodge him..

 

maybe if your sitting with a nice t1 playing it wont matter, but unless raven seriously overhaul the netcode (and ive never played ef mp to see how they did it there) it will be a problem.

lags annoying unless its nice and constant.. the fire delay in q3 is really annoying, aim, aim, fire {wait .25} target moves nice instant hit weapon fires, miss..

 

 

we dont know if jk2 will feature force see.. if it does I hope the other players get proxy meters as an equivilents.. as seeing in jk was incredibly important.. if an nfer actually wanted to cheat, adding a force seeing cog with out the sound, would be the most effective and near undetectable hack there could be... but jk2 will be far harder to hack, Huzzah!

[Tap[RR]]

Dude, with the new 1.29 patch for q3, i get 200 or lower ping, makes me feel like i have cable i hope raven uses the patch's improved netcode, man that would rock! What a diffrence the patch made.

[Wilhuf]

Sure, a separate hitscan sniper rifle with enough oomph to add fun factor is the way to go. Try a Tenloss DXR-6 Disruptor Rifle. Especially if the overall pace is lowered compared with Jedi Knight.

 

If the pace is more like the original JK/MotS, I don't know that the hunt, wait, ambush style of sniping will work very well. Seeing and speed completely defeated any sort of ambush strategy.

[acdcfanbill]

one of the DM ambushes i liked was the 'fill the hall with thermal detonators'. it was never used much around me, but i though the idea was cool, and with a little tweaking, maybe it would be more popular...

[Guest Kurgan]

Good discussion guys.. about the damage, the MotS sniper rifle was powerful, but it didn't always kill in one hit, even when used by the Scout (though to a scout it was deadly, with the lower armor rating).

 

This could get into the issue of personalities/classes, and into the issue of a "classic" vs. "hardcore" damage mode. The maps points are good as well, and not having played any CounterStrike, I can't comment on that. I don't see why they can't make it work well. The Sniper Rifle in UT was a good weapon, but virtually useless if you were "caught" while sniping. At least in MotS you could switch to the normal ST fire and lay down some plasma at close range if discovered.

 

I think that the MotS SR did make sense, because it was after all just an ST rifle. The bolt is the same, it's just more powerful and focused, rather than spitting out a ton of inaccurate shots quickly that do less damage (sort of like charging up your BlastTech to fire more powerful shots).

 

I agree that sight was not the best, but it was well balanced, in the hands of a competent user.

 

Interestingly enough, I get 100 pings (never lower) on DSL with the latest Q3 patch. Not sure if that's just me....

 

Kurgan

 

[ August 26, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

[KillerBee]

"The Sniper Rifle in UT was a good weapon, but virtually useless if you were "caught" while sniping"

 

nah if you kept a cool head, and had good aim, its just a large enforcer at heart..

[SlowbieOne]

Are you kidding me?????? The Sniper Rifle was my favorite weapon in UT, never useless. Anyway, if they decide to dedicate a whole weapon to sniping in JKO instead of use the Blaster's secondary fire I only have one thing to say:

 

What a waste of time and what could've been a cool new weapon.

[Guest Kurgan]

Okay maybe I was just never good enough to get a headshot at point blank range (and no scope). ; p

 

Maybe 1 in 100 (luck).

 

Hey, it's easy to HIT them, just not in the head, and with the slow fire rate, you won't get another shot in (unless they positively suck). So the only thing to do is switch to another weapon and hope you can get them as they close in on you.

 

Kurgan

 

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

[Guest Krayt Tion]

Slowbie-

 

That brings up something that makes me revist this comment of mine regarding the sniper rifle:

 

If it is one of the ‘Big 9 or 10’ weapons probably in the game, you can bet it is getting the full treatment it deserves as a noticeable stand-alone.

 

When I said that, I was guessing that Raven would be sticking with the more or less standard FPS fair with JK by including a weapon for every number key found on that top row of the keyboard.

 

However, I need to point out that while this is what I'm guessing they'll do, it's still not necessarily what I would like.

 

If I had my way there were be a greater number of weapons in JKO than 9 or 10, stacked up in a very Half-Life-esque system. There would be more than one weapon for each number on the keyboard, eliminating the need for the sniper rifle to 'steal' the slot of a "cool new weapon." There is plenty of room in there for dedicated sniper rifles and cool new weapons alike and this system is very easy to use.

 

What this would mean for the sniper rifle: you could then have even two dedicated sniper rifles assigned to one number. If it were up to me I would add:

 

One 'hi-tech assassin' laser sniper rifle.

• faster rate of fire
  
• custom hot-keyed zoom stepping
  
• smooth, steady constant zoom ability (non-stepping)
  

 

One 'low-tech' Tusken non-laser projectile sniper rifle.

• slower rate of fire
  
• higher damage from a non-laser projectile that can penetrate personal energy shields
  
• limited zoom options (only stepped zoom)
  

[SlowbieOne]

I didn't even think about it, but if they are planning on having 15-20 weapons instead of the usual 10, I wouldn't mind the sniper standalone. But 2 different kinds of sniper rifles? Why waste a good "could be" weapon for an extra rifle. Leave that for a mod maker, assuming they allow editing.

[KillerBee]

I don't think a devoted sniper weapon would be a waste.. they are decent all round weapons..

although I dislike the hl weapons system.. seeing balance being what it is, unless you have 15 quite similar weapons balance will be an issue. and you will end up with still 3 or so weapons being alone..

Ive never seen a decent 10 weapons with no holes in the balance.. I will prefer if they keep the weapon count low.. jk will have forces as well.