Guest Vagabond Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Osama Bin Laden, or whatever cowards are responsible for killing all these innocent people, I've just got to know...is this the best you have? Crashing four passenger airliners into occupied buildings? Do you think this is going to win support for your cause? Do you think this is going to frighten us into doing things your way? Well, I've got news for you, buddy, you just screwed with the wrong people. In the end, our <a href="http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/wtcrescue/8.html">flag</a> was still standing, and our determination for justice, beyond your capacity to understand. You've managed to align the entire US and most of the world against you, with the full resources of the most powerful nation in the world dedicated to hunting you down, like the dog you are. It's no longer a matter of if we will find you, but when. And when that happens, may you receive no mercy. Prepare for our vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt-- Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 If he were here right now, I'd kick him in the testicles. Then, when he is done wimpering, I'd to it again. And on and on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyOneCanoli Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Assuming it was a Muslim state, I think they really just shot themselves in the foot. I felt that they were beginning to gain some degree of popular support. They have just proved that they are complete idiots and faceless cowards. Nothing more, in my mind. I would call them pieces of ****, but that would be a great insult to the actual **** that can be found in your average port-a-potty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt-- Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 I think you've already insulted **** enough! You just associated **** with terrorists! I demand an apology on behalf of all ****! Edit: Spelling [ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: A Big Pirate ] [ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: matt-windu ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Nice pic hehe. [ completely unnecessary racial slurs deleted. WATCH IT PEOPLE. - Kurgan] [ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Argath Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Unfortunately, disasters like these seem to bring the ignorant racists out of the woodwork. It's a shame that the hard-working American citizen "sand ******s" are grouped with the radical terrorists like Osama bin Laden simply because of their ethnicity. Maybe next we can declare "National Kill all the White Crackers Week". After all, Timothy McVeigh was white, so why don't we just punish all white people for the Oklahoma City bombing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vagabond Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Allow me to clarify that I'm not advocating revenge against innocent people of any particular race or religion. Rather, those people, organizations, and nations that are responsible, or are providing haven to those responsible. For those, our retribution must be swift, and without mercy. As to blanket statements of racism and bigotry, people who say such things are no better than the cowards who commited these terrorist acts. Make no mistake, I want revenge, but directed judiciously at those responsible, and those harboring those who are responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhuf Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Early evidence is pointing the finger at Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization. Without a doubt the US should use discretion in meting out punishment as George Bush calls it. Directed judiciously, but with aggression. If anyone gets in the way, they'll be pushed aside. Pentagon is estimating 800 dead preliminary. No estimates yet for WTC. Secretary of State Colin Powell is saying the US will need to treat this as an act of war against all democratic nations. None of this half-assed law-enforcement style Counter Terrorism. A full-on military response is in order. More than 90% of Americans back military action to punish the culprits. 80% favor military strikes, even if it led to war. [ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kurgan Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Just so this doesn't turn into "let's kill all XXX people" advocacy week (I figured people on this site were above this, I guess not), let me say.. this is the same attitude the terrorists probably had. Think about it, they kill innocent people to strike at the US. Their victims did nothing to harm them, but they were targets of murder. By the same token, killing innocent people because they are of the same class or religion or race as the terrorists to strike at them is just as wicked and immoral. You want to blame Muslims? Many Muslim groups have come out and CONDEMNED the terrorists as cowards and murderers. Is that good enough for you? I have heard people trying to blame the US for the deaths of these people. As if we somehow deserved it or brought it on ourselves. I say to these people: Have you no shame? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (from the glass house you live in, no less). Let us bury our dead and let them rest in peace, you hypocrites. Now, again we don't know who really did the deed. Maybe it's Osma Bin Laden, maybe it's somebody else on the suspect list, that's for the investigators and authorities to figure out. I don't want us to go to war killing innocent people and making us just as bad as them, that's not how freedom and peace loving Americans should act. Let's leave off the racial slurs and threats of genocide, let's keep this discussion as rational as possible. I know we're all angry and upset about this, but we don't have to talk like terrorists ourselves to get our point across. Kurgan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krayt Tion Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 but we don't have to talk like terrorists ourselves to get our point across. Agreed. People are eager to point their anger in a direction as it probably feels worse if it keeps building up. However, for some, I wonder if I should really 'blame' the anger- or am I really seeing their true colors as a person who would so easily stereotype other groups in order to pacify their own anger? Blaming entire nations, religions, even all inhabitants of a very large and diverse area that is the Middle East, all of that does us Americans a disservice. Nothing is honored by clamouring for the blood of those who could easily be just as innocent as our own people that were slammed into the Twin Towers against their will. To be fair, this is new ground for many people, most Americans in fact. Many are calling this the greatest tragedy in American History. However, did you ever read History books with any fascination and wonder why people actually did what they did in certain situations? Did you ever say to yourself, "Well I would never have done that, what were they thinking"? Welcome to the making of history on a particularly dramatic and likely sweeping scale. You are now part of the major events as they unfold and you no longer have the luxury of being able to comment on things completely in restrospect. How fair you? I'm obviously not talking about blaming Bin Laden here, just other groups in general, as that must not get out of hand. On another note I won't be supporting any action against anyone until we are a lot more damn sure than we are now who is responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhuf Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Military force is a 'blunt instrument.' There are limits to its precision during an attack. Innocents will likely be harmed in whatever retaliation takes place. Even if we want retaliation to be sterile and just. Now, suppose innocent civilians in 'harboring states' are killed by US retaliations. Does this then not act as a disincentive to that state to harbor terrorists? Do these governments cut their losses and say 'ok, no more support, you're out, our country risks destruction because of your actions and US retaliations.' Or does it simply harden their resolve to continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi Kwan Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Kurgan: the voice of reason! Seriously though, you always offer the very level headed and honest vantage. Maybe thats why you are a moderator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krayt Tion Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 The main issue that appears in this thread to me has nothing to do with the actual civilian 'casualties of war' when there is an easily idenitifiable enemy. It has to do rather with the intentions of some US citizens and their desire to not only purposely inflict civilian casualties but inflict them onto groups which might not have anything- anything at all- to do with these attacks. This definitely is not acceptable in my eyes. [ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kurgan Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 I agree Krayt, whole-heartedly. The ones who need to be punished are the ones responsible for the acts. That would include: 1 - The terrorists who masterminded the plot (the hijackers are already dead after all). 2 - The leader(s) who ordered the acts to be carried out. 3 - The leader(s) who, knowing full well the crimes that they had committed, protected and hid the terrorists from the lawful authorities. People who didn't do anything, but expressed the opinion that it was a good thing or that the US deserved it, sick and wrong and insensitive as they may be, do not deserve the death penalty for their freedom of speech. What we need to judge are ACTIONS not words. Anybody can say anything, surely we can take harsh words, but actions have consequences. But that is as far as I'd be willing to go, not exterminate the entire country or people just because a few of them were criminals. I have seen many people express the opinion that we should just "exterminate X" group and be done with it. That's extreme and I believe utterly unacceptable. I also agree it is unacceptable to kill innocents, in order to punish the guilty. This is rule by fear, a policy of terror.. its how we get terror-ISM. I'm sure many of us feel righteous indignation over this terrible tragedy and that is perfectly natural, to be expected. I know I was very saddened and angry that anyone would do this and I was angry with those who tried to make it out to be our fault or dishonored those who had been victimized by the terrorists or excuse their bloody deeds. I'm sure many of us WISH we could round up the terrorists and kill them with our bare hands. Maybe we even want to kill everyone who spoke in any way favorably about the event or those who did it as well. The sounds of the explosions and screams of our fellow citizens are still ringing in our ears after all... The bottom line is, we can't just blow up a ton of people with the hope that we'll also wipe out the terrorists. The end result is that there will be no moral difference between us and the terrorists. We'd end up killing at least as many people as they did, if not more, given our military prowess. Targetting civilians is murder, I know civilians are killed by accident in wartime, but the point is that people advocating we simply "wipe out" some country, when we don't have even enough evidence to prove that they were responsible, is not justice. If one person in country X masterminded this, let us bring THEM and their accomplices forward and put them on trial for their crimes of Murder, let them be swiftly tried and punished according to the rule of law. That is justice. Maybe it's more than they deserve, but it's how we as Americans do things, unless we want to simply be terrorists ourselves and just go out indiscriminately killing in revenge. It ends up simply being an eye for an eye... And even worse, it makes us murderers if we kill the wrong people! Is that what we really want? Kurgan [ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt-- Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 I'm tired of this subject. I can bear no more. So, I'll summarize my thoughts. terrorism = bad racism = bad to truely win, we must destroy both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed_silvergun Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Has it occurred to people that maybe the exact thing the terrorists want is for the US and her allies to strike back? What better way to unite anti-Western (and more particularly anti-American) feeling across the Middle-East and other hotspots around the world... Make no mistake, people, how the US and her allies resond to this over the next few days and weeks will have a dramatic impact on the future of the entire world. Now let's not go and do something we all end up regretting... Edit: and another thing... I can cope with hearing the word "justice". But if I hear another person use the words "vengeance", "revenge" or "retribution" I think I'm gonna get very upset. [ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: ed_silvergun ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardz Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 This is all very tragic, I just saw an American on the telly a moment ago and he is in his late 70's and he is giving blood. He gave some little speech about Pearl Harbour and how the Yanks wouldn't give in again. Nearly made me cry a little actually. Its attitudes like that which need to be applauded, its good to see people can still have Team Spirit around here. So Is "Religion" the Front for all this? Kurgan, That debate we had a few weeks back suddenly seems a little more pertinent, wardz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhuf Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 Well, if, as the leaders of Middle Eastern states have been saying, middle eastern states are not inhabited by anti-Americans, and are not pro-terrorist, then I don't see how a directed US retaliation would fuel anti-Americanism. If anything I'd expect an upswell of support from thse countries for US action. Indeed, today there are already discussions between the US and the Arab League to help coordinate a response to the attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt-- Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 Yaser Arafat even gave blood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kurgan Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 No, it's not religion. First you'd have to show me where these people are from. If they had no other grievance with us except that of a religious reason, then perhaps I'd have to consider a flaw in my theory, but we'll see. I highly doubt that we'll discover anything like that though. For example you might try to blame it on Islam.. but again there are Muslims who don't believe in violence, and have condemned the acts of the terrorists, so that wouldn't say that their religion was the cause, now would it? People who defend them and say that the US is at fault for the terrorist attack, say that it has something to do with the US and our foreign policy. They point out our troops, our undercover "terrorist" or terror-like activities in various places, and our bombing campaigns in various police actions (not declared wars since we don't call them that anymore it seems). They even point out stuff like economic sanctions. So, going by their logic, what countries have we wronged, and would they have the capability to do it? Here are some options, just throwing out ideas here, not blaming any of these countries, just trying to see how likely in people's minds that these would be guilty. Or are we intent on blaming the Middle East? country - why they're likely mad at us Cuba - economic sanctions, bay of pigs, elian gonzales media circus Palestine & Allies - support for Israeli aggression (Syria, Lebanon, and retribution, policies Jordan, etc) that favor their enemies Iraq - Persian Gulf War, grabbing for oil rights Iran - anti-arab paranoia (not so bad now perhaps as it once was), America seen as materialistic and biggoted towards islam, Iran/Iraq war and the side we were on, Iran/Contra affair El Salvador - guerrilas vs. military government and military aide North Korea - Korean war, anti-communist policies Afgahnistan - anti-taliban propaganda in the states, general hostility to their government and culture Osmar Bin-Laden (hiding in Afgahnistan) - he's the boogeyman of the western media, the classic "arab terrorist" posterboy. He's from Saudi Arabia, our ally. Other terrorist groups and individuals (in whatever countries, all over, including in our own country like Timothy McVeigh) These are harder to catch, though in most cases you could probably have the cooperation of the government of the country they are hiding in. Countries who don't like us might not want to attack us themselves, but look the other way while some terrorist harms us, and they might give them aide.... And in these cases again a lot probably has to do with who's side we were on in what war that involved them or what leader we backed that they deposed, etc. I would list Russia, People's Republic of China, and a few others, but at present, though we have disagreements, we're considered allies for the most part. So it's not just the so-called Arab states, that people should consider if it's going to be America's potential enemies. We might not have a quarrel with this countries, but perhaps they feel reason to hate us for something we did to them (still wouldn't excuse terrorist attacks on civilians). Again, just want to say that I am not saying we should attack these countries I listed, I was just trying to come up with possible countries that might have a quarrel with the US and have produced the terrorists. Kurgan [ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhuf Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 To this list I would add Colombia and Peru, both known to export terror against US interests. Osmar Bin Laden is known to have operated in at least 60 countries throughout his 'career.' I doubt the US will be retaliating in all of these countries, as a practical matter. As to be expected, the US will weigh its options pragmatically and respond to what basically was a human-piloted missile attack against the US. But I think the US retaliation will be on a much greater scale than anything we've seen before. Both the legislative and executive branches are agreed that yesterday's attacks were acts of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Argath Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 Thus far, Arabic flight manuals have been found in a rental car, and a copy of the Koran and a flight training video were found in the suitcase of one of the plane's passengers. It's still unknown whether the terrorists were just morons who accidently left this stuff behind, or if this evidence was planted by someone else to arouse suspicions against Middle Eastern terrorist groups. Either way, I hope the culprits are found and eradicated. Here's a flag picture that nicely complements the previously posted one: [ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Argath ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vagabond Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 Nice pic, Argath. ed_silvergun, actually, vengeance, revenge, and retribution are exactly what I want. Some people may prefer the word justice, but it's the same thing - punishment for a crime. Label it what makes you most comfortable, but make no mistake about what it is. While I'm in no way advocating the killing of innocent people, or making blanketed statements of blame, I am seriously and overwhelmingly furious! What we don't need to do is launch a few Tomahawk cruise missiles, and then brush off our hands and go home. No. This isn't about attacking one of our warships in a foreign port. This is about coming into our home, and murdering thousands of innocent, non-combatants - husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, son, daughters, and friends. And now that the deed is done, the time has come to pay the toll - it is time for retribution. And this isn't just a crime against the United States. Far more importantly, it's a crime against civilization, hope, and yes, Humanity. Think low of me if you will, yet I still demand sweet revenge. [ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest digl Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 I doubt that suitcase story is true Even the FBI could plant fake evidence Actually I doubt of several of the latest news, some have been very contradictory, and Its a fact that what appears in the news is what the pentagon wants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 Originally posted by wardz: <STRONG>This is all very tragic, I just saw an American on the telly a moment ago and he is in his late 70's and he is giving blood. He gave some little speech about Pearl Harbour and how the Yanks wouldn't give in again. Nearly made me cry a little actually. Its attitudes like that which need to be applauded, its good to see people can still have Team Spirit around here.</STRONG> If it's the man I think you mean, he said "There will be no compromise, and this will not happen again." Yes, they are noble words, and I wholly sympathise with him, but ultimately he is being very naive. I'm sure many people said exactly the same thing after Pearl Harbour - after any of the atrocities that were witnessed in the last century. Sadly, these things do continue to happen - if not on US soil, then in some other part of the world. War and bloodshed are our constant companions, and in light of recent events I do not expect that to change at any time in the future. Yes, it will happen again, simply because there is no way to stop it. Anyone who is determined enough will be able to repeat this - or come up with something even more heinous. We cannot predict every scenario, and I do not believe we will ever find lasting political solutions to these problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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