Jedi Knotes #3 !

[digl]

Jedi Knotes #3 - December 20, 2001

When I started on the multiplayer portion of Jedi Knight II, the single player game was well underway and looking fantastic. The challenge before us was to not only capture the look and feel provided by the single player game, but to bring forth the elements that made net play in the first Jedi Knight a classic. Our small team had a few things easy... The Quake III engine made basic multiplayer is quite easy, and our expert 'bot coder added in our own flavor of computer opponents in a matter of days. We had a great number of resources from the single player game that helped make our multiplayer maps look top-notch.

 

Other elements took a bit more work. First, the lightsaber system had to be brought in from single player. All the moves were implemented so that they would play smoothly without suffering from Internet lag. Second, all the single-player Force Powers and items had to be imported and put into a multiplayer framework. This included making them balanced against other players, or adjusted so that they worked well under Internet conditions. Skins and models of all types and allegiances were made available and selectable by the player. New items made especially for multiplayer were added as well.

 

Finally, the Force Powers and character configurations are undergoing enhancement and tweaking for multiplayer, to add a further element of strategy for players. In particular, we wanted to bring back the light and dark side choice when setting up your character for multiplayer. So we created sets of light side, dark side and neutral powers, which included adding some brand new powers over the single player game as well as resurrecting some classic ones. These are all easily configured on your character using a simple Rank point system. The variety makes things truly interesting, especially in the team-based games.

 

Right now, things are looking really good and it's very fun to play, and we are always tweaking things further. I know that there is a core group that is very dedicated to the multiplayer experience provided in Jedi Knight, and that there is a lot to live up to. Equally, however, I believe that Star Wars fans will be very pleased with our results.

 

Pat Lipo

Multiplayer Lead

Raven Software

 

EDIT: I read it (I came to post here even before reading it )

Sounds great to me

capture the look and feel provided by the single player game, but to bring forth the elements that made net play in the first Jedi Knight a classic

Thats one of the most importante point, to make this game feel like JK, not like any mp fps

Skins and models of all types and allegiances were made available and selectable by the player. New items made especially for multiplayer were added as well

Maybe even some EU models!

new items! They are really working on mp, I had some fear that they could not take much care about mp, but It looks like this will be great

we wanted to bring back the light and dark side choice when setting up your character for multiplayer. So we created sets of light side, dark side and neutral powers, which included adding some brand new powers over the single player game as well as resurrecting some classic ones

Looks like the game will feel like JK indeed. The already annonuced force powers were by no means enough

What new powers could they be?

maybe some kind of seeing that will work without the automap?

some kind of danger sense as talked in other topics?

The variety makes things truly interesting, especially in the team-based games

Still not a word about something besides CTF, but Im confident they will come up with some original and interesting team games

[Redwing]

I'm not sure whether I like or dislike the division of powers thing...

[nykel007]

So it seems MP would be as solid as they said. Wasn't the division of power in the original JK?

I don't know about you'll but i feel they are REALLY in the final months of development.

[Wilhuf]

Cool. Sounds like they are indeed falling back on the classic Jedi-Knight style light or dark Force selection setup.

 

Also, note the FAQ update:

Jedi Outcast players will be able to use the standard Quake III-type in-game browser to find games online, start their own servers for online play, and create private servers to play with friends/clans, etc. We are still in the development process and are investigating all server options. It's quite possible that additional gaming services, including the Zone, will be supported

 

So Jedi Outcast will feature a Q3-type server browser, dedicated servers, and possibly Zone support.

 

Also, I just read about the 'lightsaber Force Power.' Saber is autoblocking, based on aim at the attacker, and is enhanced by a passive force power. And no auto-mapping. I guess I missed the following updates when they were originally posted:

 

3.06 Gameplay How will a player block shots with the lightsaber in Jedi Outcast?

As the player advances through Jedi Outcast, they become stronger with the Force. The lightsaber Force power controls your ability to attack, defend, throw and control the lightsaber as well as your ability to block blaster bolts (and other energy shots) with it. As you advance in experience, you become more adept at blocking shots with your lightsaber. This increases the number of shots you can block as well as the size of the arc you can block in and where the bolts go when they're deflected. As you advance to the higher levels, you become more proficient at blocking attacks to the point where you can even return the shots directly at the enemy who fired them.

 

3.07 Do you need to activate blocking or learn a specific skill in order to block attacks?

The specific skill you need is your lightsaber force power, which is functionally a "passive" ability. Kyle instinctively uses the Force to block shots to the best of his ability based on his lightsaber skill/Force power level. As the player, you don't need to specifically control the blade movements and parries of your lightsaber; rather, you need to maneuver Kyle so he's in a position to defend himself. Once you do that, the level of his lightsaber Force power will determine how adept he is at deflecting the attacks.

 

3.08 Gameplay Will Jedi Outcast have an auto-map feature like the original Jedi Knight?

Jedi Outcast will not have an auto-map feature. The dynamic nature of auto-mapping is not intrinsically a feature of the game engine and the design of the game is such that the need for an auto-map feature was determined to be minimal.

[Ushgarak]

I'm not a big fan of the division of powers thing either.

[StephenG]

i like the way MotS did force powers. you know, pick from a pool. Many great Lightside jedi used some darkside powers and the other way around.

[digl]

They said they have sets of dark, light and neutral powers, but It doesnt say you wont be able to use dark and light powers

Kyle even use both on SP, I think in MP Itll work similar to mots

[Vagabond]

Booo! I preferred the way Mysteries of the Sith mixed the multiplayer Force powers. It's less believable to separate the powers.

 

A Force power is not inherrantly good or evil. Rather, it's the action that the user performs with the Force that has any moral connotation. For example, a gun is neither good nor evil. If you rob a store with a gun, that's evil. If you shoot an intruder before he kills your child, then that would typically not be called evil.

 

Force powers are no different. I want to use Force Lightning to kill, that's evil. Maybe I want to use it to charge the power generator at a hospital. That would probably be good - except for that No Dark Powers clause in the Jedi Contract (rolls eyes).

 

Besides, in Return of the Jedi, Luke appears to be using Choke on the Gamorean Guards, a power traditionally referred to as dark. And Vader clearly uses Protection, or some form of it, in The Empire Strikes Back against Han Solo, so the movies have already established that there is no division of good and evil Force powers.

 

In game terms, I like having a mix of both so-called dark and light powers. It makes for a more interesting game, and it's more "realistic" anyway.

 

If this information is correct, the game will be too predictable. Once someone uses a Dark or Light power, then you'll know immediately what powers they don't have, and you'll have a good idea about they ones they do. With Mysteries of the Sith, and its mixed bag of powers, you could never tell what combination you'd find yourself up against. That variation was what made MotS, in my opinion, so much better than normal JK.

 

First no automap, now the division of Force powers. Jeez, what's next? We find out Kyle's real name is Bob?

[Frosty_V2.1]

They're just giving us more options, which is good, so we can play the way we want to, there is no restriction, only more possibilities, the more the merrier.

 

I was kinda hoping we would have manual block(press button to activate autoblock), instead of what appears to be full autoblocking, o well:(

[digl]

but Vag, as I just posted (you were probably writing as I posted), It doesnt say we will be forced to use only light or only dark powers, at least I hope we wont!!

[Ushgarak]

Hey Vagabond. Nice to see someone who cares...

 

It's not actually a complete diasater for them to seperate the powers for the game. True, it's not an accurate representation of how the Force works in the films- but then, they are giving you powers like Healing, Deadly Sight and Destruction which don't even VAGUELY represent the films! And Lightning is very much pushing it- it may be an Emperor only power, to judge by the films.

 

So they can take liberties. I can't see a good guy Jedi using grip to slowly kill someone in ANY circumstances, so you can perhaps see their point.

 

But that said, the division into Light and Dark powers really did pigeonhole you. Putting aside its silly effect in JK, why was Persuade only a good power? Why could only bad guys throw stuff?

 

Nah. MOTS was better- leave the whole range open to you and leave you to make up your own mind just HOW you would use your powers.. Much better than that forced pigeonholing.

[Guest X-Vector]

Originally posted by Ushgarak

But that said, the division into Light and Dark powers really did pigeonhole you. Putting aside its silly effect in JK, why was Persuade only a good power? Why could only bad guys throw stuff?

 

AFAIK the division of light and dark powers is basically a question of offensive vs defensive usage.

Throwing objects could be interpreted as a primarily offensive act (= "dark") while force persuasion is used to avoid confrontation (= "light").

I agree with you and Vagabond that enforcing such a strict and 'pure' separation might harm gameplay tactics and could alienate a fair number of players, because generally people prefer options over restrictions.

[Ushgarak]

Indeed.

 

And while I agree that the power split did go vaguely along the lines of the philosophies behind each side, it was still silly that only Dark Jedi can throw. Jedi arent' pacifists, they are guardians. If they are going to slice people in two with lightsabres, they are entitled to throw objects at people (which they can do, of course- it's just telekinetic manpulation, like push and pull... so is grip, for that matter) if it would help them do their job.

[wardz]

it said sets of force powers. Plural. That mean it may be categorised on each force power. I.E differing levels of darkness and light.

 

For example, grip may be in one category of darkness but it is not dark enough for it to be exclusively dark whereas I think lightning will be pretty much dark. I hope I have not lost anyone and if anyone DOES understand and wishes to phrase it better then go ahead! Its late...

 

 

wardz

[Ushgarak]

I think you are saying that while the powers are not exclusive to Light/Dark side, they show a preference to one side or another which sets how good you can become at them.

[Vagabond]

Again, a power is neither dark or light.

 

Let's look at the so-called dark power of Choke. What is actually going on here? The user is remotely griping an object, the person's throat in this case, and squeezing and possibly pulling it. That the object just happens to be a throat is irrelvant. The object could just as easily be the weapon in someone's hand, or a switch that the Jedi is manipulating to remotely open a door. Similarly, the object could be forcibly pushed away from the user. And we've seen that Obi-Wan used Force Push in The Phantom Menace, so he's just as capable of using Choke.

 

So, whether you want to call it Choke, Push, Pull, these powers are all actually manifestations of the same power - Remote Manipulation, if you will. Therefore it can be neither dark or light, nor can any other Force power.

 

It is possible for one to contrive both good and evil uses of every power, hence any attempt at absolute moral categorization of Force powers is without basis. The relative morality of a particular Force power invocation is directly dependent on the context within which the power was used.

[StephenG]

Originally posted by Vagabond

"...So, whether you want to call it Choke, Push, Pull, these powers are all actually manifestations of the same power - Remote Manipulation, if you will. Therefore it can be neither dark or light, nor can any other Force power..."

 

This is a very good point. they all all the same power, just used differently (forgive my spelling). i really hope Raven read and listen to this very good point.

[Ushgarak]

Doubtful. Too many people think the idea of seperate light and dark powers is 'cool'. The moral neutrality of the Force is not something that tends to occur to people- indeed, games like Jedi Knight heavily re-inforced this false notion that they were split this way.

 

(Incidentally, Obi-Wan can PROBABLY grip, but not every apprentice Jedi can because it requires delicate manipulation- it's more complex than giving something a shove).

 

HOWEVER- it is possible that 'Force Lightning' is either ancient Sith Lore or only works if you use hatred (or other Dark Side emotions) to power your command of the Force, which would technically make it a 'Dark Side' power, or the closest you could get. Certainly this is one power that you will not see any Jedi ever use in the films (as I said before, it might be an Emperor only thing).

[Wilhuf]

Bob Katarn tells me that it is a great idea to separate force powers into light and dark because:

 

1. it represents a balance in the Force that MotS lacked

B. Bob was tired of protection-using grippers

3. it pays homage to the original Jedi Knight design

lastly. it illustrates the a dualism of good and evil (who knows what he means) .

 

Bobby also says not to worry about no overhead map. He said he'd make it up to us by including joystick support for the ... how to put this ... mouse-challenged.

 

[Ushgarak]

Well, if he was tired of protection using grippers, he only needs to make a system in which that combo is not too powerful. A good start would be to tone down the power of protection. Aside from that, I don;t see why the powers should be exlcusive of each other.

 

And it represents a 'balance in the force'? HUH? Lord knows where he is coming from in that one. I can't see how it does that at all. The only one of his points that makes sense is the paying homage to JK... and I didn't like the split powers then, either.

[Agen]

er........ did it not dawn on yous that jk was more popular because mots force pwoer stuff was... er..... hmmmmmm.... not good. I'd always choose jk over mots because the force powers were better even thoguht mots had better guns. it's all down to if u want to kill or defend.... that to me is the best idea ratehr than all this mots crap. if u don't wanna be either side go netral. Duh!

[Vagabond]

Actually, my thought is that add-ons typically sell fewer units than the base game. Therefore using "units sold" as an indicator of what game is more popular is likely an invalid basis.

 

As to your preference for segregating Force powers, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I just don't happen to share it.

[Agen]

I said it a biot harsh but i stick with my opinion

[Redwing]

Originally posted by Ushgarak

Certainly this is one power that you will not see any Jedi ever use in the films (as I said before, it might be an Emperor only thing).

 

It's not an Emperor only thing. Haven't you seen the AotC trailer? (Oh wait...that might be a spoiler... oh wellz...)

 

@digl: It seems they will force players to choose between light and dark as seen in JK:

In particular, we wanted to bring back the light and dark side choice when setting up your character for multiplayer.

Thus, it seems you must choose whether to place your player on the dark side, or place your player on the light side.

 

BTW I didn't like MotS' style much either; "pick two" from one group, etc; it was too random and made no sense at all; at least the division in JK wasn't as random.

 

For example, Vader would have been able to use "Pull", "Saber throw" and "Grip", but in the MotS system, because those powers happened to be in the same group, you could only use two. Lame. The system would've worked better if they'd simply lumped them all together.

[digl]

duh

I misread that

 

If they use the JK style they must keep that Disciple thing, to have a few dark and a few light powers