Light Saber Battles to be the main event

[Logan SkyWalker]

:atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :

 

Well as we all know the most anticipated aspect of Jedi Knight Outcast is unarguably the way in witch the light saber duals will be played out. FACT: if Raven fails at this, the whole game that was desinged around it will fall apart and wont have the same playability as Quake or the newer RTCW, but these games dont have two big things in the eyes of most reading this post one is the majestic look of the Star Wars universe, the other, and you guessed it ....is the "light saber." Ah we fell in love with the way we could swing the lightsaber in the previouse titles , but after too short a time we realized those saber battles had little depth. Running past eachother swinging away trying what seemed like just a bit of luck and speed to win these battles.... and it felt more like a joust then a saber dual....right ?? So what do we expect now, what are we asking of Raven, cause after all its going to be a long while till they pick this project up for anthor title. They better get it right NOW. And if they do, if they awe us and keep us swinging those majestic saber at each other for a long time from now THEN I can say they did it right. Ive read many postes here about this and some ideas sound really good and iI lioke the passive blocking like in the origianal cause you dont want to make it too complex after all that losses playability also. If you want my opinon i feel it should play out like Soul Calibur on the dreamcast but in third person of course for the saber battles. You need a low attack button or a duck attack to create realism. I also belive in combos but in differnet fighting stlyes that should be selectable, witch would give differnet combos and force the true saber master to study all the techniques (i.e. combos). This are some of the things that seem obviouse to me and other i have read. Id like to hear your input on what you feel would be needed to create an altimate Jedi Knight Outcast package, Thanks for your time sorry so long

Jedi in Training , Logan

[digl]

First, welcome to the forums logan, you should get your welcome stuff soon

 

Second, not to bring you down, but I guess the lightsaber system is ready, and I doubt Itll be changed, so most of the discussion made now about the saber will be useless, but Im wrong sometimes (not many times tho )

 

We dont have a detailed description of how it will work, but I know Raven guys know the importance of this issue, and wont release a crappy LS control system

 

However what I most anticipate about jedi outcast is playing again mp with force powers, weapons and lightsaber, not only saber, and now in good servers

But I know LS control is the most important point for many people, so if they screw it (I know they wont) the playing community will be much smaller than what It could be

[Obi Kwan]

For me, it is all about the functionality of the sabre and how well it works in multiplayer. I view everything else, force powers and single player included, as secondary.

 

That being said, I have faith that raven will deliver, even if the sabre control is not the realtime control that I'd like. I cant wait!

[Slonn]

How much detail would you want them to go to? Make them push it too much, and you end up with an over-complicated sequence where you anxiously try to block every shot while returning blows, while having to choose which saber slash technique you want to use to kill him.

 

Try giving a detailed account of how you would like it done. If I were asked, I would immediately say: 'Manual blocking." without missing a beat. Why? I hated the mindless lucky swings, even though I got good at it. What would it be like if I could counter that heavy swing - with a better chance of blocking than 5% - and twirl as I plunged my lightsaber into his back. This is all you would need. If you wanted to spice it up a bit, get them to add multiple animations of the swing, to make it seem as though he wasn't just foolishly swinging.

[Millions o' Monkeys]

ok well wouldnt it be great if raven just gave us a little more info...just a little , hint hint

[The Seeker]

Welcome Logan. *hands Logan welcome gift basket*

 

Truth be told, I was totally happy with the saber in the original JK. So, with Raven at the helm, I have a feeling they will only improve on it. Whether it is a significant change, or just tweaking the old system, the game will certainly be awsome.

[Redwing]

Well, with the JK style sabers, Star Wars-movie-ish duels are suicide. You have to use a slash-and-run style, where you run in, slash your opponent, and run out before he can slash back, because you know you won't be able to block him, and even if you do, you'll be unable to move for the next few seconds as Kyle goes through a blocking animation and your opponent hacks you to bits...

[Toa Tahu]

I didn't like the saber battles in JK at all.Kyle is slow,and his swing is not all that powerful,and that makes it hard to defeat Pic,Gorc,Maw,Sariss,Bog,Jerec...However,i hope that the saber system in JK2 will be much better,and I DO REALLY hope that Kyle is faster this time round.

[Shmed]

I am also hoping for a much deeper lightsaber control this time around also. I got the chance to play Obi-Wan for a good 8 or so hours last weekend and I thought it did some things with respect to control really well (despite the game itself being mediocre). I liked the blocking system for one, it makes all people happy. Basically you have passive blocking as well as manual blocking. The catch is that passive blocking just deflects shots harmlessly where a manual block will deflect a laser blast right back at the shooter, or in the case of a melee attack, stun the opponent for half a second (giving you a chance to get a swing in quickly). It works quite well also. Obi-Wan also has a couple combos you could pull off with the lightsaber by double-tapping an attack. I wished there were more combos, and I'd definitely like to see some in JK II. To keep things pretty simple, it's possible just to use 2 buttons (primary and secondary attack buttons) and the directions to create lots of combos, like in Bungie's game Oni. Simple stuff like primary, primary, secondary... or back, forward+primary and so on. Really easy stuff, so the people who want to keep it simple won't be alienated. My personal wish is that you'll be able to attack high/mid/low simply by attacking with the cursor over that part of your opponent's body. Click on the head, get a high attack and so on... this is very simple but adds some depth to the system, especially if some form of manual blocking is in place (block high if they hit high).

 

Anyway, I hope it turns out alright

[Tay-Mar]

Surely the whole point of auto-block on JK was to see how u're enemy fights so u know when and where to strike !

 

After mastering this aspect of JK taking out Gork, Pic and the others is just a matter of time and patience.

 

I am however concerned about the use of Force Powers in MP, JK was a great MP game but became a little one-sided when dealing with a Dark Jedi. I got more than a little ####ed off with force grip damage..........know what i mean !

 

I just hope that Light and Dark force powers are a little more balanced this time round.

[Logan SkyWalker]

wished there were more combos, and I'd definitely like to see some in JK II. To keep things pretty simple, it's possible just to use 2 buttons (primary and secondary attack buttons) and the directions to create lots of combos, like in Bungie's game Oni. Simple stuff like primary, primary, secondary... or back, forward+primary and so on. Really easy stuff, so the people who want to keep it simple won't be alienated.

 

Totaly agree with this 100% but not the high/mid/low attack that would be WAY to complex!!!! Also a duck attack would give you your low anyway .... after all Kyle has to crouch anyway ... so use it in a combo.

 

AND FOR BLOCKING AUTO OR PASSIVE BLOCKING, WITHOUT A DOUBT, IS A MUST ....HANDSolo DOWN !!! 80)

[StormHammer]

Welcome to the forums, Logan. Hope you enjoy your stay...

 

*hands over a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

 

There you go.

 

 

As for Lightsabers being the main event, I'm not sure I totally agree. For me it's the choice in how to play the game that matters more...the choice of perspective, force powers, guns and lightsaber combat. The choice of how to play the game, makes me want to play it more, so I can try out all the features.

 

I do agree that the lightsaber combat needs to be ramped up a great deal for JKII. I would certainly like to see a greater variety of attacks. As for high/mid/low...there is no reason why this cannot be done. They're using GHOUL 2, which allows about 36 different hit zones on the body of your opponent...so I'm looking forward to being able to deal out damage to specific areas. I'm not sure how many hit zones JKII will actually use, but I'm at least hoping for all the limbs, torso and head. My own feeling is that a head shot should really be a one-slash-kill...unless your opponent is using some kind of Force protection.

 

Apparently the movement is loosely based on what they did with Heretic II, which uses attack in tandem with movement keys (like JK), though it's supposed to be improved. I once worked out about 50 moves using 3-key combos, so a wide variety of moves is certainly possible - although I highly doubt we will see anywhere near that many in the game.

 

As for auto-blocking, it's a pet hate of mine. I got fed up of auto-blocking in JK, becaust it would always block an attack just as I was about to make an attack of my own. It should be my choice whether I want to accept some damage in order to deliver a killing blow...but it's pointless discussing this now, because it's been confirmed that there will be no manual blocking in the FAQ update. It's going to be very similar to JK, so I guess I'll have to clench my teeth and live with it.

 

There are already going to be drastic changes to how this game will be played, both in SP and MP, and the only real test of how successful these changes are will be in the physical gameplay.

[Agen]

I agree withm ost of what stormhammer says there and about the auto-block thing i think it should be a choice in the settings wether u want to auto-block.

I am however concerned about the use of Force Powers in MP, JK was a great MP game but became a little one-sided when dealing with a Dark Jedi. I got more than a little ####ed off with force grip damage..........know what i mean !

 

BTW just put on absorb and laugh at them but when i gripped people lgiht-jedi done that so i let them steal my force but it holds them in place so i jsut shot at them and then they died.

[StormHammer]

Just to clarify my point a little further...I'm not saying auto-blocking shouldn't be in the game at all. It is very useful for deflecting blaster fire...although there was a problem when you were under a hail of fire from several opponents, that you could not make any kind of attack with the lightsaber. I suppose this would make sense, actually, and is reminiscent of the stand-off between Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan and the Droidekas in TPM. Their best tactic was to get out of there and regroup. If there is an opportunity to do this in JKII, it should work out okay.

 

The crux of my point is that deflecting blaster fire and entering lightsaber combat are two totally different things. Autoblocking is acceptable to me for blaster fire...but not as acceptable for saber fighting, which should rely more on skill and tactics and taking risks. That is where I think a manual block would have been useful, so the saber battles would have been a bit more like Rune's, which worked quite well, IMHO. Even pressing a mouse button down to enable blocking (which could auto-block more than one swing), and then releasing to turn it off would have been a bit better from my POV. At least then you would still be able to duck or sidestep and attack, without auto-blocking all of the time.

 

Anyway, maybe someone will make a mod along these lines, so I haven't entirely given up hope on it yet.

[wardz]

good points Stormy,

 

Raven have said that they want you to be able to play throgh the whole SP missions with the LS only if you should wish. They are not going to implement some crappy half baked system if they want you to do that are they?

 

 

wardz

[URLACHER_54]

I think the blocking system from JK was good just to slow for MP, if they make the saber as good as theyre saying itll make MP a LOT better.

[Agen]

The crux of my point is that deflecting blaster fire and entering lightsaber combat are two totally different things. Autoblocking is acceptable to me for blaster fire...but not as acceptable for saber fighting, which should rely more on skill and tactics and taking risks. That is where I think a manual block would have been useful, so the saber battles would have been a bit more like Rune's, which worked quite well, IMHO. Even pressing a mouse button down to enable blocking (which could auto-block more than one swing), and then releasing to turn it off would have been a bit better from my POV. At least then you would still be able to duck or sidestep and attack, without auto-blocking all of the time.

 

I see your point clearly but i think that lec considered it but for multiplayer the net-code would hvae been too slow and they would have hit you first. Q3 is gonna do this better but worse for 56kers (prolly) unless they do collission detection then stormie's wish would be easy to implement and we can still keep it for blocking.

[DeathBoLT]

FACT: if Raven fails at this, the whole game that was desinged around it will fall apart and wont have the same playability as Quake or the newer RTCW,

 

no, thats an opinion.

 

Personally, I don't think the lightsaber will neccesarily be the thing that makes or breaks JKII. Yes, I would be rather disapointed if they were lousy in JK2, but I think that the guns and the force powers are also significant factors in how the game turns out. Even if the lightsaber turns into a fairly useless weapon, if you have decent guns and useful force powers, you will still have a great game on your hands. Even if you never played them, FF Guns and NF Guns were very enjoyable forms of playing in JK; in fact, they could arguably be the best aspect of JK.

 

but after too short a time we realized those saber battles had little depth. Running past eachother swinging away trying what seemed like just a bit of luck and speed to win these battles....

 

NF Sabers, if you played it right, was rarely luck. The NF sabers I played and [ego swelling] excelled at, was a very graceful and skillful means of playing, particularly for a movement based style of play.

[DeathBoLT]

Regarding wanting the saber duels to be movie like, here is something i posted earlier in a different thread:

 

I don't remember JK just being sabers being swung wildly; there weren't many things to do with katarns arms, but it was very elaborate movement-wise. I think it was better this way anyways... how slow would the game had to have been in order to have darth vader v luke skywalker style fighting(which was all they had at the time) or ep1-style, which would require less focus on movement, and more on arms, which would have slowed the game's pace down tremendously, ruining the enjoyment of other aspects of the game(ie nf guns, ff guns/sabers) and made for a eventually very boring nf sabers that focus strictly on button mashing..

 

in order to get the thing slow paced enough for these movie-style movements(which in turn would lead to button mashing style gameplay, you'd have to slow katarn's movement down tremendously...

 

it sounds great at first; i know, ive thought about how cool it would be to have ep1-style saber duels, but when you think how movement will be impacted and how slow the game will get, you realize how ****ty a deal it would become after a few weeks of it for most people.

 

i'd save this type deal for a mod, for those who want to play RPG, button-mashing games or whatever; because people are going to get tired of painfully slow game play and aren't going to want to pretend their in the movies and are going to find ways around any slow movement or other pace-restricting elements(which would in turn ruin the game for a-many of people) and are going to ruin how you want to play.

[DeathBoLT]

I liked the blocking system for one, it makes all people happy. Basically you have passive blocking as well as manual blocking. The catch is that passive blocking just deflects shots harmlessly where a manual block will deflect a laser blast right back at the shooter, or in the case of a melee attack, stun the opponent for half a second (giving you a chance to get a swing in quickly).

 

this system sounds kind of interesting..

[StarScrap]

Personally the thing I would like to see would be manual combos (i.e. you have enough moves that you can peice them together whatever way you want, rather than you hit 3 buttons and the comp rattles off 15 swings in quick succession). I just can't get past the apeal of jumping my enemies first swing, coming down with a heavy slash, ducking their next swing, circling arround, and coming up with an uppercut. As for the slowness of gameplay issue, maybe an "advanced saber control" option either in the personal options or in the mp game options.

[Agen]

if u notice a while back slowbie pointed out that kyle seemed to put up his guard early and we though it might have been manual blocking.

[DeathBoLT]

I just can't get past the apeal of jumping my enemies first swing, coming down with a heavy slash, ducking their next swing, circling arround, and coming up with an uppercut.

 

and to get that, you would have to slow down movement; you can't get 2d arcade style saber fighting in a 3d enviorment without significantly slowing down the pace of the game.

 

once you throw in force speed, people will be hitting quick bursts of speed to quickly fly past you, killing you while you're attempting to get them to stand still long enough for an elaborate saber duel.

 

preserve the game, and create a mod later on or offer it as part of the game for those who want to role play and pretend their in the duel of fates or whatever...

[nykel007]

Basically I just want a LS control that would keep me occupied for years to come. Although I'll like some info on saber control soon.

[Logan SkyWalker]

WOW I can believe someone said this game would fly with a bad or even mediocer (spelling?) LS system. First of all, and lets not forget, a jedi's weapon of choice is, after all, the light saber. And like i said in my original post, if you read it, the light saber is what the other two big first person shooters dont have and thats a FACT. So if you think this game will carry as many players without a good to exellent LS system your just plain wrong. Hay, loyalty to a title only carry's as far as quality to the customer. Dont kid yourself. And please this is my first post and already im being insulted, lets try to be civil. OK deathbolt ???

if i played it right ...what nerve!!!

 

 

Jedi in Training

Logan Skywalker