Lightsaber theories (feel free to move if too off topic)

[Demangel]

I feel this has SOMe relavance to the game so I will post it here...

 

I have made an article explaining why a lightsaber blade MUST have mass in order to be used properly. i don't ask anyone agree with me who strongly prefers to think of a saber blade as weightless, honestly it's fantasy.

 

However if some dingbat on here decides to say I take things way to seriously, remember before you flame me. you know nothing about me, my interests, my nature, or my hobbies.

 

Now on to the good stuff...

 

this article is a few screens long, and involves a diagram of some of the physical laws in effect on any melee weapon (in this case a saber), when being used.

 

It is in purely lamens ters with arguments presented on both sides of the fense... from "comon they used prop sabers so of course they look weighted" to maybe it's a gyroscope that makes it seem weighted.

 

I also list some source material and other sites of great reading, or interest to anyone who likes sabers (A LOT of them have been thrown around on this forum before by me and others, one of them is even still on this first page of threads in this forum at the time of this post).

 

Basically I wanted to show anyone who felt the lightsaber HAs to be made of light, or weightless, why that idea could never realistically work. i have argued against even the force being responsible. I am sure some people might still have reasons to argue after this, but at least you will know where I am coming from on the subject.

 

In the end, as I said SW is just fantasy. whatever you feel makes you happy is all you need to stick too... if making the saber blade "weighted" in one way or another ruins it all for you to the point of tears, even with logical theories to back this up, then either don't read this article, or read it and forget it.

 

i hope you enjoy this article, I spent about 2 hours making the page (writing/rewriting text, and doctoring a picture of a parks saber, and yess the crappy qaulity of the pic is on purpose to conserve bandwidth, the orriginal saber pic I made looks like it's from the movies... I am an old pro of photoshop heheh).

 

Now for the link:

 

http://www.demangel.com/sabermass.html

 

Please let me know what you think of this article with the poll above, and or by replying. If you have arguments against or for this theory, feel free to list them here.

 

-Demangel

[enDless_Deliriu]

Good post, you put a lot of thought into that. I still disagree, for several reasons. The most obvious,and I guess pathetic/pointless being that 1) it's a fantasy universe (futuristic fantasy, but still fantasy) as such, our laws of physics don't necessarily apply. 2) Even if our physics did, it's obviously much more advanced technologically than we are right now, the best way we can show them is with our melee weapon equivalents, which are weighted.

 

 

More in with the Star Wars universe for references. It says in several books and such (which according to Lucas are canon as well) that the blade is weightless. The books agree with you on one point, the blade is VERY hard to control, and takes years of practice (at least without the aid of the force to help you with it) to be able to use safely. A person who just picked up a lightsaber is more likely to cut his own leg off or worse, than he is to do anything of effect against an enemy.

 

With your example of the blade being swung at something and the reaction. The only two things currently in the starwars universe that a lightsaber can not cut through are 1) another lightsaber 2) cortosis. Everything else, the saber wouldn't bounce, or anything, because it would just slice right through the object. With cortosis, the saber would just suddenly disengage and you'd end up as normal, just minus a saber blade.

 

With another lightsaber, well, this is where the complex art of saber fighting comes in. It says in several places sabers are very hard to control, especially in a fight. I think this may very well be for the reasons you explain. I can't explain why they fight as they do (movie, so it needed something new/flashy that would help give it an edge of being something more mystical and fantastic perhaps?) however, assuming they have a reason to fight as they do, with proper control of your motions the bouncing could stop. It would take quick reflexes, but basically when the person moves to block,you'dhave to pull your strike. Perhaps they're constantly pulling their blows as is, because swinging with full strength with a lightsaber is very dangerous.

 

I wish I knew more of the physics to give you a better debate, but those are some of my reasons for disagreeing with you. You raise VERY valid points, I just choose to disagree here.

[Demangel]

No problem with it, I half expected the first response to be:

 

YOUR A LOSER YOU WIERDO!

 

LOL

 

anyway I am curious which books you refer to.

 

they might be considered apocryphical or whatever that word is. Basically not exactly Canon, however, there is yet another problem.

 

the movies always overrule the books, or screenplays, even the ones that are considered canon.

 

Now from the physical standpoint as an expert of most weapons, and namely Katana, and a few more or less european two handed sword styles, as well with my limited grand master advanced laymans science knowledge... I think it's safe to say that the movies do NOt support the books view of "weightless blade" and in fact deny it.

 

again look at TESB, Lukes saber bounces off of Vaders shoulderpad with a glancing blow. Was this that magical armor? Well according to how you described it, it couldn't be cortosis because the saber would be disrupted or something right?

 

also we see ona few occasions where the saber needs to be forcefully pushed through an object...

 

and finaly, even if I admitted that only force users could use a saber (which is not supported by canonical referaces, heck han solo used one in TESB, and he is no jedi and he didn't cut his own leg off), i still don't feel the reason they are hard to use, is because they are weightless or gyroscopic.

 

Like you said, it's really whatever floats your boat, and this is a big boat. to some it's like telling them thier god is really just a rock with worms crawling under it. to others it's even worse than that.

 

(don't get me wrong I beleive in some kind of god heheh).

 

anyway again, with the aid of physics, and assuming the movies are an accurate representation of how saber are used, wieghtless/gyroscopic blades are very unlikely to be the answer.

 

However May I be the first to note that especialy in episode one, there are more than an easily number of countable instances of technological inconsistancies between the orriginal trillogy, and TPM.

 

Hell I just read about half of them for the first time and nearly laughed my ass off...

 

Anyway if the movies are canon, using a saber the way they are used in the movies would be an insanely bad idea if the blade is wieghtless... even for a Jedi.

 

and remember a Lightsaber was supposedly a widespread weapon, used not only by jedi, but many others as well.

[enDless_Deliriu]

I like you, you argue well. I'll get my next counter after sleeping, (and I'llhave to find which novels later, I don't have manyof my star wars books here as I'm in college).

 

I agree about certain inconsistencies and the like, there are scenes where it shows it needs force, but I'm pretty sure in TPM that Qui-Gonn just slides that blade right into the blast door. I don't know what he is doing twistingit, but it just pops right in.

 

Basically, I think certain fans but more thought into things then the creators in time. I still disagree, but I need sleep to present more coherent arguments.

 

 

 

Also, I'm not sure what Vader's armor is made of. But Cortosis is used in the books, and in Jedi Knight II. Thought for some reason Raven modified cortosis to just make it a material that was highly resistant to lightsabers and not have the nullifying effect it normally would. (possibly because people wouldn't like constantly losing their saber blades )

 

I'm also not sure of my view point of whats more canonical movies or books. Generally I accept them as equal, for the very reason that while one has the creator, the other has someone who is more of a fan to it, and fans generally put a bit more thought into trivialities than the creator does at first, simply because they big stuff is already decided. Anyhow, argument to appear later, and I don't call people losers for presenting their view point of a pretty large argument among star wars fans (lets break into Skywalker Ranch and ask Lucas )

[Ten Tigers]

First I would like to say that your writting comes across as quite condesending. Both your post, and your link. You may wish to brush up on that.

 

That being said, I cannot agree or disagree because you seem to have mass, and weight pictured as the same thing. They are on an atomic level, but not the same thing when it comes to a full object like a sword. Weight is merely the effect of mass in a gravitonic field. If an object has NO mass, it is intangable. Even photons (light particles for those who dont know) have mass or else it would not be possible to reflect light. The photons would phase through any solid object. And as anyone who payed attention in highschool science will recall, the greater an atoms atomic weight is, the heavier the material will be. Compare helium (He) Atomic Weight/Mass: 4.002602 amu, to gold (Au) Atomic Weight/Mass: 196.96655 amu.

 

So as you can see, it will take a lot more helium atoms to match the same weight as 10 pounds of gold.

 

The only reason I point all this out is for COMBAT PHYSICS.

 

Now as far as combat goes, a lightsaber would have to have physical mass or it would not be able to parry physical objects, energy blasts, or other lightsabers.

 

Now as far as the lightsaber having weight, for all intents and purposes, it would be weightless. At least in the "blade". Yes the energy particles would have some form of atomic weight, but when you look at my helium/gold example you will see why I say it is virtually weightless. How much volume do you think 10 pounds of light particles would occupy?

 

What effect will a "weightless" blade have on combat? Well it cannot be likened to a fencing foil, or a rapier. They just do not inflict damage the same way a lightsaber would. A lighter blade means quicker swings. The more matter you touch with the lightsaber, the more overall physical damage you are going to do. The tactical implications of this vary from advisary to advisary. With living things with vital organs, a quick stab to the blood pump, or respitory system will be more valuable as the quickest path between two points is a strait line. A thrust is quicker than a swing. Now if your opponent is covered in thick armor, or is a solid mass with no internal weaknesses like a golom or something, then a swing would be favored over stabbing attacks as more damage can be inflicted over a larger area.

 

Where a "weightless" blade would be at a disadvantage, is defensively. With no weight backing the blade, it completely rests on the defenders physical strength to strait on block an attack. Of course any good swordsman will tell you that it is better to deflect with your sword than to strait on block, but even deflection partialy rests on the defenders physical strength. If the aggressor is strong enough, he can literaly beat through the defenses of his opponent provided he does not leave himself vulnerabel to a counterstrike.

 

And as far as individual attacks go, the lightsaber has no cutting edge, so the weight factor in that is largely irrelivant. With a swond, an improperly executed strike may not land directly on the cutting edge, creating a glancing blow. But as previously stated, a lightsaber is lethal on all sides of the "blade". The only problem the lack of discernable weight would have to someone trying to emulate a specific style of swordsmanship, is if they only trained with a weighted weapon and instantly changed to a lightsaber. The person used to whipping around a 15-20 pound twohanded sword will need to practice his moves with the lightsaber, so he is not overextending his moves due to the newfound lack of weight. With that being said, any style of swordsmanship can be adopted with a lightsaber calibrated to the proper length. A shorter blade for a Gladius style of fighting or an extended blade for someone adopting the style of a claymore or a zwiehander.

 

I could go further into other aspects of this but I want to see how people relate to what I have put in so far...

[Ten Tigers]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot...

 

enDless_Deliriu: You are wrong, there are THREE things a saber cannot slice through. The third is Lord Vaders upper armor. In Empire Strikes Back, Luke does land a solid blow to Vader's right shoulder to the point it bounces off. But aside from heat damage, it didnt sever his arm and through the rest of him...

[acdcfanbill]

maybe luke was useing light stance, and only landed a glanceing blow...

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by acdcfanbill

maybe luke was useing light stance, and only landed a glanceing blow...

No you fool, it was lag. All the way. Lag...

 

[Bluezman]

Ok, I only read this post, but not the article and I am no physician. I bow my head before you and I really like this kind of "nerdiness", this is really fun to read. So I am just guessing wildly, the post of Ten Tigers about the difference between mass and weight ticked me off on this:

 

Maybe it is possible that the blade consists of very intense light, or pure energy. (by the way, how can something so hot, sealing off wounds instantaneously and cutting through metal etc. not heat the hilt so much that it melts? how come, these jedis never burn their baggy clothes with it, especially at the wrists? but I am wandering off...) where was I? Ah, the blade being made of pure energy. Maybe this means that it also has much more mass (not weight!) because the "light" is so intense. Thus, the mass of the blade is enourmous (considering, it is "just" light) but the weight is zero?

 

Ah well, as I said, just guessing. If you ask me for my real opinion: Lucas never thought about it. Just as with the flashing of the blade at Vader's armor. That was probably just the idea of some stoned special effects guy back in the seventies and Lucas thought it looked good...

 

But I see that this is not the point here. So maybe you answer to my mass-but-no-weight-theory...

 

Dang, I guess, I go read the article now

[GreyJedi]

Great article, but to me, you could have stopped after the first argument.

 

The fact that lunges and thrusts are faster and better than swings in foil and epee fencing, but jedi use swings nevertheless, points to the fact that their fighting style is suited towards swords where the weight of the blade is of major consequence.

 

For me this was enough of an argument, as any agruments regarding physics assumes SW physics are the same are real world physics.

[Ex-Dragon]

I've always liked the theory that the blade might not have mass, but feels kind of like a gyroscope.

[Sutek]

I have one possible explanation for the illusion of mass, one which may be shaky (since I am forming it as I type).

 

Look at it from this perspective - the saber blade is a heat beam, powerful enough to cut through anything given sufficient time (EP1, they need to slowly move the blade through the door in order to make a dent).

 

The blade itself certainly has solidity for the following reasons: There is a semi-solid field created which confines the beam to a specific region around the hilt, conveniently blade shaped. This field confines the plasma that is surely produced when the heat beam the hilt creates interacts with the bar of air confined in the field. This field is only semi solid, allowing matter to pass into the core while restricting matter flow (but not preventing, otherwise you could logically fill the bar with matter completely). Because the heat beam is tuned to a specific frequency the crystal it uses, the light radiated by the trapped plasma is of a suitable colour.

 

Now, since the blade is confined in this field, the field itself must have some effect on combat - namely it requires some effort to push it through and object, hence the necessity for a long swing. The act of swinging increases the speed of the end of the saber, and thus when the field impacts an object there is a collision (similar to that between massive objects). Again this produces the illusion that the blade requires mass to be swung this way, when in fact it requires effort (I would use force, but in this case...it might be misconstrued) to get the blade to enter an object (and thus do damage).

 

The semi-solid field thus prevents the light stabs and flicks required of rapier fencing, because a) the field at the end of the blade is not necessarly pointed, and most likely isn't and b) a wrist flick will not generate sufficient speed to push the field into an object.

Before you refute the concept - remember that they already have demonstrated semi-solid or permeable field technology, and these are primarily used as hangar "doors" (allowing ships to pass through, but not air). This is simply a specially shaped and tuned field. Finally, the saber fell out of use for two reasons:

1) the Empire was executing anyone with a lightsaber in case they were a jedi, whether they were or not (good reason to not own one really), and

2) A jedi uses the force to predict where the holes in their enemies defence may be, and directs their attacks to those points. A non-jedi trying to fight a jedi in saber combat (or any melee combat in fact) would lose nearly instantly unless they had vastly superior reflexes. And lightsabers are a different weapon to wield to a sword *because* their blade has no mass (see the StarWars RPG, old West End Games version - Lightsaber combat is a separate skill to normal melee combat).

 

But your argument was well put and thought out. I simply have a different opinion to you.

[TexRoadkill]

Trying to apply real world physics laws to Star Wars will only ruin suspension of disbelief that is required to enjoy the 'technology'.

 

In Star Wars lasers are shot as bolts, space flight is no different than atmospheric flight, there is never zero gravity and a laser can stop after a few feet and be used as a sword.

 

Star Wars technology is a combination of WW2 dogfights and a sci-fi rip of Kirosawa samurai movies. It's great fun but you cant for a second try to justify any of it with real world physics.

[Torin]

I for one, disagree. The argument that the blade must have weight sherely based on the fact that they swing them in combat is of no consequence whatsoever. There are plenty of prime examples of quick flicks of the wrist and whatnot to support the blade being weightless. The reason why large swinging arcs are used in jedi vs. jedi combat is to attempt to destabilize the enemy, strictly through the force excerted onto their saber blade. How do you knock the weapon out of your enemy's hand? It surely isn't done with thrusts and quick flicks of the wrist, you have to excert force from your blade onto their blade, causing them to release their grip. Not to mention, a grand majority of saber combat IS just quick flicks of the wrist, moving your blade up above your head to quickly down to your knees in order to block a blow, as well on the return end, very quick flicks of the wrist result in different altitude attacks.

 

However, then we have examples of people like Luke, who go around swinging in huge arcs, for reasons unknown against Darth Vader, he should have known that he couldn't disarm him through force.

 

You could argue the blade has significant weight based on the style of combat used, but the big factor you didn't really take into account is when fighting another jedi, who has a lightsaber as well. It is a relatively easy (I assume) task to block quick fliks of the wrist attacks with quick fliks of the wrist blocks, as there is really no force pushing against your blade, it's merely about making sure your weapon is in the path of their blade, which should be enough to stop the blow. However, when one guy is swinging his blade around, the momentum he achieves from moving the handle of his saber through the air is enough force to cause a "pushing" effect on the enemy's blade, possibly jarring their grip, pushing them back or even disarming them, a task that cannot be accomplish through quick fliks of the wrist, that generate practically no opposing force.

 

Another big thing that would lead me to believe the blade has no weight, is that there are SO many examples of a jedi unsheathing his blade and cutting through a mass with just a flick of the wrist. Like when luke was upside down in the bantha cave, hanging by his feet, it was a mere flick of the wrist and he cut himself free. Also many situations where a jedi would unsheathe his sword and flicks his wrist downwards to block incoming blaster fire. You cannot do this with a blade of any significant weight, as the general idea is that you have to generate force and momentum in order to properly swing the sword. These situations do not show the need for any momentum whatsoeever.

 

Anyways, as I said earlier, my biggest argument as to why they swing in wide arcs is for the purpose of pushing your opponent off balance, or possible disarming him of his blade.

[whitedragon]

i agree about the whole weight thing (and i hate people who take stuff to seriously:mad: ) but you went into tooooooooooooooooooooo much detail about it i dont really care about the science of it all i just play the game for FUN its a GAME. and im not trying to complane here just take a deep breath and relax:violin:

[Demangel]

Lots of good feedback from everyone! geesus I don't think I can cover everyone in this one post. However many of the things disputed by some of the people on here ARE outlined on the actual page I put up. so I won't try to reexplain everything heheh.

 

As for me sounding a bit mean or condescending, I am sorry if I came off that way. i was just being serious for once, normaly I joke around a lot. i wanted to make a serious poke at saber dynamics.

 

i agree, as said a couple of times that this IS fiction, and the only reason I grapple with the plausability of the saber is:

 

1: sabers are the next best thing to have a sword forged by demons that is totaly indestructable, and can steal souls simply by drawing a drop of blood from a victim (think of elrics sword from one of the many novels about Elric, the book is by Micheal moorecock, which i always spell totaly wrong... so someone is sure to laugh at my spelling heheh0.

 

2: My brain is too active for it's own good, so to shut it up I make it grapple things like this. Hell one time I actually tried to make a perpetual motion theory using a pencil and two cd's. It wasn't supposed to be a working model, but it made my brain shut the hell up after about four hours of thinking and fooling around.

 

Hell while I am playing JKII I am thinking up all kinds of odd ****...

 

anyway on to some of the reasons I gave in more detail...

 

first off, to those who think simply pushing the blade is enough to penetrate your right... but once again refer to my diagram of how the effects of a wieghtless blade impacting on another weightless blade would be to ludacrisly dangerous... In this diagram I point to newtons laws of motion and plenty of other known laws, that we can safely assume exist in the SW universe. We all can say that things react according to most if not all of newtons laws in the movies, and if they don't some form of technology compensates for this.

 

However what aboiut the effect of inertia as stated in my web page? the saber blade would NOT have inertia (might be wrong term) if the blade was without tangeable mass/density.

 

the blade would travel on it's merry way till it hits something. your arm, your hand and the hilt all have mass/density = inertia. the blade doesn't. the implied inertia of the blade dies once it encounters an obstacle like another saber.. however the inertia in your arm, hand and hilt would still be there... making your arm, saber, and hilt keep going on it's set course. the blade however having no inertia would not have sufficient force to continue it's orriginal path. The hilt would in effect snap back in your grip with more force, the harder you swung the saber. Making big arcing swings stupid. why? Take a stick: Pretend on end is the saber handle, the other is the blade. Now press the blade into an object while pushing down on the handle part but not swinging it. this is the effect the lever of the hilt/blade would have on your saber. now imagine swinging this with imense force... your hand would try to keep going, but the blade would encounter resistace, and with no mass to back it up their would be no follow through. pushing and twisting the saber blade back into your palm in a way that could disarm you.

 

In other words the saber would have little to no real impact power worth noting simply by swinging it. Swinging it would be counter productive.

 

again simply look at the films, how do they use the saber? although someone supposedly uses a more european fencing style in the new movie (or so I hear), this is one person out of a dozen or so jedi we can safely say we have, or will see with the orriginal trillogy, EPI, and EPII.

 

to say the others are simply doing it wrong is basically saying that only one guy in the films did it right, and the rest are all lucky to be alive.

 

I cannot stress enough that using a blade without mass, would be counterproductive to even a force user.

 

I have taugt melee fighting for years, and so I can agree that yes, in theory you CAN block said snapping motion of the wrist with a snapping wrist block. But why don't we see this happen more than it does? It DOES actually happen in one degree or another in just about ALL sword styles. In some it is easy to spot (foil for example), in others it is much harder (Katana).

 

thus simply because they DO snap thier wrists once or twice in the films doesn't mean that proves it's weightless/without mass/density.

 

If it was without mass, or density, the Jedi and all saber users would use nothing BUt these fast moves...

 

again I state, WHY oh god WHY would you swing in a big wonderful arc if your weapon could be more effectively used in a quick snapping/thrusting motion instead?

 

Still haven't had enough?

 

without armor of any kind, lets take two fighters, of equal skill (judge them in whatever way you want), but one uses fencing, the other uses... hell I'll be nice... a katana.

 

Now this is one of the more fair matchups possible for intercultural mixing of european fencing and just about any other sport/non sport form of weapon fighting.

 

but from EXPERIENCE I will tell you that when I sprred a guy using his practice foil and I used even my light Bokken, he still had a massive speed advantage, and I had to pull out a lot of tricks to win the fight. his blade could move much more quickly than mine, and although mine had more impact power (thus able to knock away the fencers guard, putting his practice foil back into a defensible position was more than easy.)

 

i had to actually use the Katana as more of a thrusting weapon than a cutting one to stay on a more or less equal footing, and occasionaly slash when i saw a perfect opening after a parry for example. however if blocked with the bell of the foil, or the part of the blade clostest to the bell (which is fairly common when you mix a slashing/cutting weapon with a foil, and even when it's foil on foil it happens enough), the fact it was a light blade suddenly made no difference. the leverage was the same.

 

the point? If I had a saber, and it was without mass/weight ETC. i would not be using Kendo/tennis/baseball bat like swings much if at all. instead I would be using a more or less foil style of fighting.

 

I would think that 90% of us out there would do the same, the remaining 10% would die in the first few days.

 

i am not saying the saber overal is heavy. look at my estimations again. I would compare it to possibly a light bokken. Massive enough to be used as a cutting/slashing/hacking weapon, but light enough to be used in otherways, and have very fast movements.

 

finaly look at how Obi Wan twirls his saber like a cheerleader oh so much. Now anyone who is like me and can do that move in thier sleep will tell you. If the blade has no mass/weight or whatever you want to call it. this twirl cannot be done the way it is shown. and might I remind you all that the choreographer of the film did everything he could to ensure the blades where properly balanced with how they would be if they where real.

 

Now, although I have restated some of what I said in my web page, I still invite you all to read it. Probably the first time I took some effort to make something of this nature, and still remain totaly serious (normaly I crack jokes in mid lecture to lighten the mood LOL).

 

Keep this replies coming, I love hearing the thoughts of other remotely intelligent people... it's a nice switch from: "YOU PULL BACKSTAB WHORES MUST DIE!" or "PUSH SHOULDN'T BE SO STRONG!" or my personal fav. "1.03 SUXXOR!"

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Demangel

If some dingbat on here decides to say I take things way to seriously, remember before you flame me. you know nothing about me, my interests, my nature, or my hobbies.

 

In short in real life I could probably Burry you, both mentaly and physically... so I am not in the least bit hurt by any remark you might have, or threat you might make against me for my nerdyness heheh. If anything it will simply annoy me, and cause me to flame you back just to vent that frustration...

 

Now here I must play with you a bit since obviously when reffering to this specific subject you are not phisically strong (you put that as second in your sentence too hehehe), and you obviously could not mentally even scratch me since your spelling is not the best of nature. And the fact that your superfly poll is ment as a mind controlling fence to the effect that if I would press any of the four, you would win any argument afterwards. So now that I eased my mind on that let's continue...or as you said;

 

Now on to the good stuff...

 

 

The way I thought about sabres, or yet lightsabres is that they are weightless. I mean that would really take someone with skill (aka Jedi/Sith) to balance, because as the explanation of the lightsabre goes = that it is used as a "brush of a professional painter/artist", which means you need someone who can use the force to handle the sabre, otherwise you would have every lunatic in the universe able to handle one (and we all know that a weightless blade would not be easy to handle since most of the time you would probably cut yourself if it was designed like a lightsabre).

 

The other sign pointing me to the weightless sabre is that Lucas wanted to do something different. In example, he probably wanted to evade the melee weapon physics, and just make his own universe (*cough*force*cough*). So, if anyone saw Ep2, you can see how the sabre is connected to the force.

 

 

When Dooku tries to attack Obi-Wan with his Lightning, and Kenobi blocks it with the sabre, and the sabre absorbs it

 

 

Besides, you do know that when they are shooting the movie, they are handling no-blade (just the handle) sabers, and if they are practising clashing moves, they are using HIGHLY thin sabres for two reasons:

 

a) Special effect (they can't use a chunk cuz that would take some time to erase )

 

b) No weight almost at all

[Demangel]

I already mentioned many times in the past that my spelling sucks, and spelling isn't nescessarily a mark of intelligence at all... It is a mark of education nothing more. If you want to know the personal truth, I come from a broken home, and wasn't really being taught anythig in school for about a year and a half when I was in about 4th grade, and blah blah blah. Now I'm 25 and to be honest aside from my spelling, I am no fool. If you knew me in person and actually sat down and talked to me a bit I am sure you would agree.

 

to be honest I am actually a pretty nice guy, so if you took offense to me saying I am smart or anything else, I'm sorry you took that as a challenge. In all honesty any challenges I made where not to those who disagree with me based on my theories. Those challenges where made to anyone who simply posts flames for the sake of flaming. Make sense? sure maybe it's feeding the trolls, but hey, I'm sick of em heheh.

 

As for being physically fit?

 

Well I don't expect anyone to beleive me, or anything like that, but trust me, I am not weak. I never said anywhere that I was a 5 pound weakling, unless I was joking with someone.

 

To give you an Idea I currently Bench about 300 LBS. Believe it or not it doesn't bother me much either way.

 

I only stated that stuff to try and curb flames. Not to make real threats or anything like that. you see in every case someone has brought up real sabers, or the real toy ones. the posters have been flamed. So there is my reasoning in a nut shell... I was trying to show that compared to the flamers and trolls, I sit very high on the evolutionary ladder. I wasn't comparing myself to the nicer folks on here. I have no reason to. the nicer folks like Endless and a few others have my respect even if we disagree.

 

Lastly the poll was half ass. but don't take it too literaly. One answer says I am right and the article was good. one says I am wrong but the article was good. and one says I am right, but the article sucked. sure I could have put one that said: "this article sucks and you are dead wrong!"

 

why didn't I? Well just out of spite people would answer like that I am sure.

 

Lastly I made the poll so I could get a kind of litmus test on how well the article was recieved. currently the people who agree outnumber those who disgaree 6-4. this means I will likely do some more research on similar subjects, or just about the lightsaber, and make another article or two. At the very least put up a few pages or something people might find interesting.

 

anyway i can agree to disagree...

 

since most of my answers to your contrary reasoning are found in the article itself.

 

From the force connection, to how anyone who uses real weapons in real life would agree, you would not use wide arcing swings like that without a reason.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Demangel

I already mentioned many times in the past that my spelling sucks, and spelling isn't nescessarily a mark of intelligence at all... It is a mark of education nothing more. If you want to know the personal truth, I come from a broken home, and wasn't really being taught anythig in school for about a year and a half when I was in about 4th grade, and blah blah blah. Now I'm 25 and to be honest aside from my spelling, I am no fool. If you knew me in person and actually sat down and talked to me a bit I am sure you would agree.

 

Don't get me wrong, you have a very nice and expanded vocabulary, however the spelling makes it kind of hard to comprehend, let alone take seriously in the eyes of others. Fact of the matter is that my primary lanugage is not English at all, and I know three others (I'm 16 btw) so really, don't take any offense. Btw, I don't think I spell well at all, or write comprehendivly (<--is that a word? ) but I try my best for others to understand me as best.

 

to be honest I am actually a pretty nice guy, so if you took offense to me saying I am smart or anything else, I'm sorry you took that as a challenge. In all honesty any challenges I made where not to those who disagree with me based on my theories. Those challenges where made to anyone who simply posts flames for the sake of flaming. Make sense? sure maybe it's feeding the trolls, but hey, I'm sick of em heheh.

 

You being a nice guy = not important to me nor will make any difference. You behaving well (as oposed to "1.03 SUXXORS" lol) = is important to me. I didn't take it as a challenge that you said how you were smarter, however what I did want is to warn you that just for saying that you could be "buried" in a lot of ways (I just did it in a nicer and non-hostile manner while there are many others).

 

As for being physically fit?

 

Well I don't expect anyone to beleive me, or anything like that, but trust me, I am not weak. I never said anywhere that I was a 5 pound weakling, unless I was joking with someone.

 

To give you an Idea I currently Bench about 300 LBS. Believe it or not it doesn't bother me much either way.

 

That part was just meant to confuse you, because in fact I don't really care how big or strong/weak or small you are. Leave that data to your girlfriend, not very important here is it?

 

I only stated that stuff to try and curb flames. Not to make real threats or anything like that. you see in every case someone has brought up real sabers, or the real toy ones. the posters have been flamed. So there is my reasoning in a nut shell... I was trying to show that compared to the flamers and trolls, I sit very high on the evolutionary ladder. I wasn't comparing myself to the nicer folks on here. I have no reason to. the nicer folks like Endless and a few others have my respect even if we disagree.

 

Well I do endorse that kind of behaviour, however with that kind of a kick off in your first post, there could be a lot of unhappy people, therefore you would just attract the flames to your direction. As for the content, I don't really think it has something to do with behaviour, but if you say so, I'll take your word for it

 

Lastly the poll was half ass. but don't take it too literaly. One answer says I am right and the article was good. one says I am wrong but the article was good. and one says I am right, but the article sucked. sure I could have put one that said: "this article sucks and you are dead wrong!"

 

The poll was actually very good, as in 1. Is supposed to give everything to your favor, 2. Is supposed to give you half favor, but you had to put an alternative (as in I don't agree), since it wouldn't be a poll 3. Anyone answers that, you win since they agree, 4. Well the most interesting one, since if anyone answered that one, it would turn out that he is as dumb as they get. "OW MY HEAD HURTS, I'M A MORON THAT CAN'T COMPREHEND THE SUBJECT". Nice one there .

 

 

 

Now as the subject goes, I will hold to my idea(s) since SW = imagination, and I rather prefer to imagine that the sabers are weightless, however unless Lucas himself tells me that they are weightfull, I don't think I'm gonna believe it.

 

Oh well...

[whitedragon]

your getting serious again:sweat:

[Aoshi]

i would have to say that sabers must have weight because of one simple fact. look at darth maul's saber and then watch him spin it. if i remember correctly he spins the saber a few times in that movie. in order to spin something you must have momentum and in order to have momentum you must have weight. you can do this yourself by spinning a broom handle or something ( to show weight) and then spin something very short that has less weight. you will quickly see that in order to spin anything you need weight located at the outer area of whatever you're spinning in order to generate momentum which then generates a spin. also if you look at darth maul in a combat sense he would have to spin the double saber very quickly(and powerfully as to knock their blades away long enough to block them again) in order to deflect the attacks of two jedi's coming from both sides. if darth maul's double saber didnt exist then i could agree with those that say lightsabers are weightless but then again if lightsabers were weightless why arent they MUCH thicker than they are now? you could make uber sabers that are like 10 feet long and 5 feet wide and as long as it is weightless it would handle like a normal saber( i realize that there would be power restrictions to this but you could always just use more crystals). because of this i have to say that sabers definitely have weight.

[snakeeyesa27]

Has anyone looked at this site? it covers this topic and many more in great deal. it is much more than i ever wondered about lightsabers explained and/or theorized.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htmhttp://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm

[ToppDog]

Jeez, I can't believe this thread has gone on this long when the answer is so obvious. Saber Blades have weight, period!

 

Aoshi & ten Tigers make very good points. This question was already answered the first time we ever saw Darth Vader throw his saber. As the saber twirled through the air, the pivot point was in the blade itself, centered somewhere between the tip of the blade & the bottom of the hilt. If the blade was truly weightless, the pivot point would have been in the center of the hilt only, precisely the same as if you had thrown it without turning it on. No gyroscope can correct this in free flight & it would seem a mighty waste of force powers to artificially replicate the gravitational effects of mass in a moving object.

 

Yes, I realize that the reason it looked that way was because he was probably throwing a broomstick across a soundstage, & yes, I am aware that this is fiction & the writers can say whatever they want to. But it makes more sense to say that the blades have weight since everything points to that, than to say that they are weightless but gyroscopes & force powers or whatever artificially replicate mass in the blade.

[Boreas]

It is actually quite possible to weild a weightless blade as broadsword.

 

Fencing with sabers would be stupid because:

 

1) Sabers naturally do much more damage in swipes

2) Given that Jedi have heightened awareness and can block easily, attacking with a jab would have the blade cut out of your hand.

3) It is much easier to overwelm an opponent with a fast blade if you use heavier styles (strange, but true)

4) Killing non-saber weilding foes is easier this way.

 

 

And the main reason: Fencing doesn't suit the films or the characters, and looks much less cinematic.

 

 

As the guy above me said also, who is to say the saber blade doesn't have weight?

[whitedragon]

ok im getting off this thread now its makeing my head hurt:explode: