leelink Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 I have been playing 1.04 with about 10 hours of playtime so far and my issue is that I can no longer control my opponents or keep them from running and healing. can anyone give some tips on this. Example: 1. I want my opponent close to me. So I attack him with pull and saber throws. opponent like a good doggie starts to fight in close with me. (now that drain, lightning and grip whores are back. this move is impossible to setup without getting zapped to death or the other person draining you and getting thier health back anyway.) Example: 2. I want my opponent to keep thier distance, I use pull/push to knock them down when they are in close. opponent learns to keep thier distance (cant do this anymore) I can see no way to keep someone from running from me and healing. you could roll up behind them and pull them down, but now that would be a waste of force power as it has no effect. the matches seem incredibly long now and if your not using drain or heal, you havent got a chance in hell of winning consistantly against a healer or drainer. You also dont have to worry about low force power anymore, because if someone did pull you down, the most they could take off would be 30 points, but you could just run and heal and then come back to fight again. I am hoping I will find new combos and moves, but so far I am fustrated by having to chase my opponent around the map as he heals and no way to stop them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 it's not really a problem with sabers it's just that there's too much healing power in most maps for it. especially on ctf maps.. there's just piles and piles of shields and health boxes in every hall. that's why dueling is currently so much better, fights last a reasonable duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twins of Doom Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Originally posted by Xzzy it's not really a problem with sabers it's just that there's too much healing power in most maps for it. especially on ctf maps.. there's just piles and piles of shields and health boxes in every hall. that's why dueling is currently so much better, fights last a reasonable duration. unless your playing on a force duel.....you can't get em to stop running and healing...you try doing a DFA or finisher, but the decent players will avoid those.........and all they keep doing is running away to use force heal...you can't get em close enough to do damage, and can't do damage fast enough to stop em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoxictd Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 This game just plain sucks now! Nothing exciting or challenging anymore. All it is is long fights or kickers. BLAH!!!! You know, I didn't use to have such a high opinion of spammers, but it did present a challenge. But thanx to whiners who didn't want to learn to play to the best of their ability, the game is so damned neutral now, anyone can win. As leelink said, there is no intimidation. Im not afraid of anyone, and they're not afraid of me. This game is BORING, now. It all comes down to luck, that's all. VERY SAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twins of Doom Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 it seems that those of us who were telling everybody to learn to counter it are now on the opposite side of the game because we liked it before 1.04 (in my opinion) did what the majority wanted, unfortunately it was not good for the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homosexual Ewok Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 leelink I play pretty much FF duels only so I know exactly what you are talking about. Your best bet is to look for a damage scale server (see my sig). Saber combat is the most lethal it ever has been in all three versions with this. If you only wish to play on "vanilla" v1.04 duel servers, I have found that the only way to beat the "run and heal" players (that have spread to FF duel servers like roaches) is to try and put their back against the wall, so to speak. I don't waste time attacking them in open spaces; I try to lure them into a position where they will be cornered. Like in the duel_training map, I never fight up on the glass. It's too easy for them to simply roll off and start healing. Same goes for the Imperial Shuttle bay map, never fight up on the catwalk, keep the fight in the small rooms off to the side. The reason for doing this is to unload on them with pull+kicks the second you get them boxed in. As you know, even in this patch, a pull+kick will drop them almost every time. I usually do a close range saber throw and immediately go into a pull+kick. If they are slow to get up a yellow finisher, with a mouse spin, or a red over hand chop usually finishes them off. For the ones who spring up fast, you pretty much have to keep them against the wall and kick them to death as they panic to flee. The good thing about kicking someone who is lying against a wall is even though they are low damage attacks; you can get 4-5 of them off rapidly in just a few seconds. It does get lame having to do this over and over, but with the low damage swings, you have very few options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homosexual Ewok Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Originally posted by Twins of Doom 1.04 (in my opinion) did what the majority wanted, unfortunately it was not good for the game You are 100% correct. The majority wanted something to keep them alive longer. No high damage saber swings or moves did just that. Personally I would rather die in a 5 second duel with a good player than spend 15 minutes chasing a poor player around in a game of “hit-run-heal”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMexican Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 backpedal's slow, so you should have no trouble catching em. if they run with their back to you, use saber throw ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyplaya73 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Try my server. I think you'll like it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leelink Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 I will most likely be adjusting the JHQ servers tonight. I cant stand thinking up clever moves and then haveing it be worthless so the person can run and heal. I will give some examples of clever moves. on the duel_temple map on the bottom level I will run to the back of the map near the side wall where a piece of the wall sticks out that you hide behind. I put mindtrick on as soon as i get behind it and then move away from the wall. I wait for the other person to run over to see if i am there (so hilarious, and sooo many people will check) when they check I give them a good lunge from behind and a saberthrow. another example is on the duel_bay map. i pretend to be wounded and run from my opponent and run in back of the ship (narrow passage) I then stop and backstab the opponent following me. (also very funny to watch) another example is on the duel_training map. I pretend to be wounded again and run towards a pillar, the opponent follows. I do a backfilp off the pillar and it puts me in perfect position for a backstab, because your opponent will stop following just before you hit the pillar. I hate doing this now as it will only work maybe once during a match and for all that i have worked for in positioning my opponent and also the threat is poses to me to work them like this. It gives me no benifit to think up moves like this because a person can just heal off all I have worked for. NF severs will remain the same unless twins of doom would like them adjusted, but there will most definately be an adjustment to the Force Server Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Maximus Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Yes we need to learn new tactics for the new patch but overall I have found that fights, for me, are much shorter than beforce. I no longer have to roll and junp as much to avoid all of the bsckstabbing. I have found that if you wait for them to come to you then you are in control of the fight. If they want to use force protect and Heal I let them. A few good kicks later and they will be back to the same spoy anyway. Plus if you want the one hit and kill try this. Roll up to them and attack with grip. When they turn blue kick them in the face and do a dfa attack on them. Thats it an instant kill. This patch requires you to have more skill and to think more about what you are doing rather than a plain pull and stab like before. Use your imagination and try to change styles according to whom you are fighting. Patience is your best weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyplaya73 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 leelink those are some nifty moves. Those would be deadly on my server if you landed it just right. Stop by and check it out. I think its the kind of action your looking for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myst Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 If the damage rating of the lightsabers were at about double the current state (v1.04), imagine what it would be: blue - ~40 dmg yellow - ~60 dmg red - ~70-80 dmg Spamming kicks, sure you get three kicks on me. But if you miss once, ur down 2 kicks equivalent with one light swing, 3 kicks equivalent with a medium swing or down 4 kicks with a strong swing. Or sure, you hit me twice with saber throw, you lose about 1/3 or 1/4 of your force - but one good swing with my yellow and we're pretty much back where we started. No more running away backwards ( because of slowed back pedal speed) and obviously missing lightsabers killing you or sabers that go through people. This gets rid of the saber throw runaway deal and with stronger swings, there will be less people inclined to constantly throw their sabers around twirling. With double damage to all swings, backstabs and other special moves deal decent damage (not total death) and have reasonable delay times and recovery times. Some moves may not need a damage increase, but most moves do, especially the standard ones. There weren't any backstabs, kick or saber throw wh0ring in v1.02 because the standard swings would deal decent damage. So if they tried to spam, they could get hit by a quick 1-2 hit combo and pretty much be equal to what there spamming did or most likely worse off. Even back in the day when kicks were 20 damage, you didn't see kickfests except when it was veteran vs newbie. Where's the spam then? The v1.04 patch is on the right path. Kicks & saber throws will be used as opportunities, not spammed. The real problem is at the moment, there is no point to use normal swings anymore, with the possible exception (if you can get away with it), of Strong (Red) Swings. Once the other swings are dealing decent damage, lightsaber combat will be a lot faster and be actual saber combat as was seen in v1.02. Faster lightsaber combat means the lightsaber will be a great threat in gun games again. Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myst Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 I will most likely be adjusting the JHQ servers tonight. I cant stand thinking up clever moves and then haveing it be worthless so the person can run and heal. I will give some examples of clever moves. on the duel_temple map on the bottom level I will run to the back of the map near the side wall where a piece of the wall sticks out that you hide behind. I put mindtrick on as soon as i get behind it and then move away from the wall. I wait for the other person to run over to see if i am there (so hilarious, and sooo many people will check) when they check I give them a good lunge from behind and a saberthrow. ____________________________ If swings were double the current levels, run and heal would not work to well since you would be dead before you could run. Healing isn't so bad, it's when you run away to save up force that is bad. I would not blame someone for using heal in the middle of a fight as long as he stayed within range and continued the fight, albeit perhaps defensively. Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twins of Doom Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 blue - ~40 dmg yellow - ~60 dmg red - ~70-80 dmg actually...that would be good.... only thing is though, it would be more if doubled you are right on blue and yellow but red even now can be a one hit kill so it would be a lot higher yellow would also sometimes be more like 70 or 80 though if you hit good (under double damage) at least...those were what the stats were in 1.03 and i don't think they changed em BTW: sounds good for FF server...NF can stay as it is though;) because you don't have to worry about constant healers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myst Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Well, it's most likely the new saber damage system. Perhaps that should be changed so the ends deal more damage. Using a 40, 60, 80 damage rating for the stances, perhaps we could increase the damage more when you get hit closer to the end of a swing. Maybe not full damage like in v1.02, but closer like half at the end of the swing. Forsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 mods for tweaking saber damage are incredibly easy.. it's all handled in one function, and the code isn't longer than two pages. For most tweaks it's as simple as submitting different numbers to the function, including the 'new' damage model. Pick some numbers, have someone assemble a pk3, drop it on the server, then restart the server with a set_game variable. Clients won't even have to download anything.. I could have it done in 30 minutes or so if I wanted. Sabers are quite weak now, especially in FF or guns servers. You want to survive on a guns server, you better plan on using a gun. It's simply too hard to kill anyone before they run off and get help or health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by Myst Maybe not full damage like in v1.02, but closer like half at the end of the swing. Agreed.. when I was inspecting the code when it was released, I found an option that let you view the amount of damage your saber could be doing at each point in it's swing (apparently updated every server tick). I think a normal swing on red stance had a minimum damage of 12 or so, up to a max of like 100 or a bit higher. Numbers may be a bit off, but the range of possible values was so silly that unless you could hit someone at the exact peak of your attack, you may as well have not made an attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myst Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Yeap, that's exactly it. But actually the numbers are at about red 60max yellow 30max blue 20max I've never killed anyone with 100 health even with a full hit with a red swing. Forsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twins of Doom Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by Myst Yeap, that's exactly it. But actually the numbers are at about red 60max yellow 30max blue 20max I've never killed anyone with 100 health even with a full hit with a red swing. Forsy i know you could in 1.03, not sure if you could in 1.04.......and yellow and blue are actually like 5 more damage than what your saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myst Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Yea just did some testing. Apparently they did change the v1.03 saber damage. Even when barely touched they did this damage. The only exception were the overhead swings since it worked on the burning effect damage system. So a strong overhead swing takes out about 30-40 per "burn" and about 120 when a person is fully struck. The following are usually approximations. Light Stance side-swing: 24dmg overhead-swing: 48dmg Medium Stance side-swing: 30dmg overhead-swing: 60dmg Heavy Stance side-swing: 40-50dmg overhead-swing: 80-100dmg This is actually not a bad damage system. Say we increase light side-swing to 30, medium side-swing to 45, and heavy side swing to 60, this would be pretty damn good and useful in gun servers. Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leelink Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 I say we increase everything to a 2 hit kill. that would make for some interesting moves and combos and remove kicking while on the ground, but still allow you to kick off of objects. you should only be able to kick a person when they jump at you in the air or perform a move in the air. that would get rid of the kick whores. what the game is really missing is Defensive to offensive counter moves. meaning that when I have anticipated my opponents moves I should be able to block and then perform and offensive move that would do equal damage to the move he was trying to perform on me and he should not be able to block it, if i have performed it fast enough. Too keep this kinda short I will give one exaple of what im talking about Mortal Kombat 3 I am scorpion, other person is scorpion also. were on opposite sides of the screen. - The move - I teleport to the other side of the screen possibly hitting my opponent - Defensive to Offensive Counter - person blocks and then can uppercut me puch me and juggle me and then follow up with more hits can jump up and kick me can do a round house can do a side kick possible sweep me. If we had choices like this for each time a person used a force power, then there would be more sabering with only spurts of force powers sprinkled here and there. With patch 1.04 the game is going to be dominated by grip and lightning whores, because there is no consequence to use these powers on someone. you can block it with absorb, but then you have to get close to the other person to do any damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myst Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 If you can easily counter back from a defensive position no one will bother to attack anymore since you will be at a disadvantage. Leave it as is. Parries and blocks should be doable and the swings are fine the way they are. Already you can actually do 3-4 hit combos on red by being constant close saber combat. That's the sorta thing you're thinking of, quick counter attack to a defensive parry/block. And it's there, just that you don't see it much 'cause most people liketo deal one swing then back up. Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by leelink meaning that when I have anticipated my opponents moves I should be able to block and then perform and offensive move that would do equal damage to the move he was trying to perform on me and he should not be able to block it, if i have performed it fast enough. I discovered this one the other night.. you actually already do, except it's an automatic counter. Cable was out a couple nights ago so out of pure boredom I started up a bot only game with cheats on. What I eventually did (remember, I was bored) was put a heavy weight on my attack key and just stood in front of the flag, with godmode on. I wanted to see if I was able to kill the bots without doing anything. Anyways, so here I was standing there with attack, in blue stance.. overhead chop, repeatedly. What I quickly noticed is that when my saber bounced off a bots' saber, my character would swing the saber back behind his head, loop it around, then swing the saber from the right side into the bot's waist. This wasn't a one time thing, and it wasn't the only riposte my character was capable of, there were a few variations depending on whether the enemy was in front of me or to one side. So the counter attacks *are* there, they just happen so fast (and probably miss most of the time) that you never see them, and you definetly can't control them. I never once saw the bot not take damage from this auto-riposte. I didn't test other stances, nor whether this worked while moving around. It seemed to be reliant on contacting the opponent's saber, and being parried (ie, blocked), WHILE holding the attack key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myst Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Yeap Xzzy that's exactly it. Great with red stance. Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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