Protest in Oregon

[TheJackal]

#1 France was never a communist country. It is a capitalist state just like: Canada, United Kingdom, Mexico and yes the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (there are hundreds more but I my point has allready been proven)

 

#2 The USSR is now history. The Soviet Socialist Republic was destroyed around the 1990s and became a capitalist nation... just like America. Those mass murders you are talking about is back when Joseph Stalin was a dictator. He was a paranoid maniac and killed thousands. Right there I know you'll want to bomb Russia for its past. But I seem to remember America have black slaves, no? So technicly we should bomb American for its past. right?

 

#3 "the government can do whatever the hell they want with no concern"

 

France is known to have a very politicly minded nation. They would protest at the sign of any governmental abuse or corruption. Thus, if the governement decided to do whatever they wanted to do... the public would riot and abolish the current government.

 

 

#4 CagedCrado... you need to take prozac. Travel around the world (without a gun) and look at society. Look how the different cultures are similar and yet different to America's. .... But please... dont come to Canada. I represent my country by saying I dont want you to come spoil our nation with your presence.

[Jedi_Monk]

Both of these articles are from "The Oregonian":

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/front_page/103019016034851.xml

 

Shortly before 5 p.m., as politicians and others arrived, demonstrators who approached from Southwest Fifth Avenue and Taylor Street were pressed against parking lot walls, unable to maneuver. Police, who had kept protesters a half-block from each side of the hotel, tried to move the crowd farther away.

 

First, they pushed with batons and yelled orders to disperse, they said. But when the crowd didn't move, they sprayed canisters of pepper spray. Many protesters said they never heard the orders and that the spray affected children and others who were there peacefully.

 

"At no time did I ever hear a command," said Patty Annis, editor of Street Roots newspaper. "They just indiscriminately started spraying into the crowd."

 

Clark said donors arriving from the north, south and west sides of the hotel had no problems. He said the bureau did not want to restrict entry to one spot to avoid drawing greater attention to attendees. "These people got through. They were a little bit disheveled," he said. "We were relatively successful, but not totally."

 

Mark Polin, a demonstrator from Bellingham, Wash., said protesters paid for the police's poor planning. "They had no contingency plans," Polin said. "We are not to be blamed for that."

 

Things grew more tense when three police cars with reserve groups of officers tried to move through the crowd and inside the barricades to safeguard the cars from potential vandalism, Clark said. But as they drove into the crowd -- which police recognize might not have been the smartest move -- some demonstrators leaped on top of one car and banged on its windows.

 

And that's when police started shooting... Two Portland officers fired rubber sting-ball rounds from 37 mm single-shot guns at the people who had leaped onto the car, their police reports said.

 

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/front_page/103019015934850.xml

 

A number of protesters said problems erupted after police near Southwest Fifth Avenue and Taylor Street began pushing demonstrators down the block to expand the closed-off area near the Hilton. Police declared a "state of emergency" and started spraying when protesters linked arms and stayed put.

 

Jeff Cropp, co-chairman of the Portland chapter of the state Pacific Green Party, said police should have given demonstrators who didn't want a standoff more time to leave because of the crowded conditions.

 

"Some people were interested in being more confrontational. Those people would have stayed," Cropp said, "but those with kids would have gotten out of the way."

This article also mentions a "chill out zone" near the protest site for people with children, the elderly and others who might want to get away from the main action. According to Adam Smith's report (the first link I posted in this thread), this "chill out zone" was one of the areas that the Police cut a swath through.

 

[Darth Knight]

ok jsut becasue some one posts a messege on a fourm dosen't mean it is true, i can post something right now

 

 

New York City just flew away! I was there and then the police shot at us. They threw old ladys around. Then they hit kids with bats.

 

 

See is that true? No, just becasue it is on the interent does not mean it is true. The medi would have coverd this if it were as you or whom ever says it was. Remember that black kid in LA that got slammed by that cop on the back of the cop car? That is police bruality, they covered that A LOT more then they needed to.

[Darth Knight]

also it said people jumped on the cars and started hitting the windows, cops and other people have been killed in wobs and riots, if i was a cop i would have shot those rubber bullets at people, it could save peoples lives

[Jedi_Monk]

Taken at the protest:

Here's an example of the kind of crowds that those police cars tried to go through. And they thought this was a good idea... why? Added to this, judging by tapes I've seen which were taken at the protest, the police cars were moving in a way so that they were cutting some people off from escape.

 

Furthermore, as far as I can tell, so far, most of the so-called "tagging" was done with chalk:

There was this group of about 6 people that had these huge pieces of chalk. Every where we went they were writing . They wrote on building, sidewalks, buses you name it.

Hardly irreparable damage to private property. And nobody was charged with defacing private property, either.

 

Furthermore, nobody was arrested for an act of violence... five (out of 2,000-5,000) were arrested for "disorderly conduct, failure to disperse or interfering with police," while a sixth was accused of... "urinating in public"... but, well... they'd closed off nine blocks around the Hilton (not even the Carl's Jr. was open!), so what else was the poor guy to do?

 

[CagedCrado]

I used to not like the dwarf because he is a trekkie and now i do, funny how one post that is good can change it all. France was ran by communists in the late 80's and early 90s, im not sure if that qualifies them as communists but id say it is a step towards it. The point is the soviet union did kill people for fun, and a lot of governments in europe will contain violent crowds any way they can, any mob, even if the people in it arent participating are guilty of any crimes commited so i think they should all be arrested, also countries in europe dont have guidlines on what the government can do to contain citizens, or they are very easily bipassable rules.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

I used to not like the dwarf because he is a trekkie and now i do, funny how one post that is good can change it all. France was ran by communists in the late 80's and early 90s, im not sure if that qualifies them as communists but id say it is a step towards it. The point is the soviet union did kill people for fun, and a lot of governments in europe will contain violent crowds any way they can, any mob, even if the people in it arent participating are guilty of any crimes commited so i think they should all be arrested, also countries in europe dont have guidlines on what the government can do to contain citizens, or they are very easily bipassable rules.

 

My god,

 

Award for the most misinformed person in this Forum goes to cagedcredo, Jesus Christ, France has never had a 'COMMUNIST' government. They had a left wing government which is the equivalent of the american Democrat party.

 

I am sooo glad there are folk like you in these forums it makes everyone else see that they are in comparison a genius. LOL your comments are comedy of the highest order.

[Agen]

He gave me a laugh tho, here have the spoon dummy award for being the most ignoarant wrong person ever lol

[CagedCrado]

You just dont see through the propaganda you moron, when there is no constitution the government can do whatever they want. Like in the UK you absolutly can not say that tony blaire is an idiot or you will be arrested or fined. You cant even be homeless in england without getting fined. You also have to realize everything the US does is propaganda and that the other countries are nothing like the US. In other countries the governments can like it or not do whatever you want, and any laws there are against the government or restrict it can be abolished in a day. Even the mighty constitution of the US can be bipassed, look how long the word under god has been in the pledge. almost 50 years or more.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

You just dont see through the propaganda you moron, when there is no constitution the government can do whatever they want. Like in the UK you absolutly can not say that tony blaire is an idiot or you will be arrested or fined. You cant even be homeless in england without getting fined. You also have to realize everything the US does is propaganda and that the other countries are nothing like the US. In other countries the governments can like it or not do whatever you want, and any laws there are against the government or restrict it can be abolished in a day. Even the mighty constitution of the US can be bipassed, look how long the word under god has been in the pledge. almost 50 years or more.

 

So the U.S.A. will become like the UK if the constitution would crash and burn?And you seem to like the UK. So in other words,the constitution is just propogranda to change the U.S. into something like the U.K.?

[CagedCrado]

The constitution isnt progaganda but is false security for the government taking over. I would rather have the country be like nazi germany.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

The constitution isnt progaganda but is false security for the government taking over. I would rather have the country be like nazi germany.

 

Didnt Nazi do torture? God...that is SO wrong...wont even comment.Damnit,I just did..

[CagedCrado]

Nazis did something called the hollocost, they killed about 10 million people that were civilians alone, most of them jews. The united states put japanese people in death camps, the USSR exiled <insery every ethnic group in the former USSR> to siberia. Every country good or bad has killed exiled or tortured people, especially during ww2.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

You just dont see through the propaganda you moron, when there is no constitution the government can do whatever they want. Like in the UK you absolutly can not say that tony blaire is an idiot or you will be arrested or fined. You cant even be homeless in england without getting fined. You also have to realize everything the US does is propaganda and that the other countries are nothing like the US. In other countries the governments can like it or not do whatever you want, and any laws there are against the government or restrict it can be abolished in a day. Even the mighty constitution of the US can be bipassed, look how long the word under god has been in the pledge. almost 50 years or more.

 

OK, you just gotta be trying to get a reactionwith these wild falsehoods.

 

Facts:-

 

1:- It is not illegal to criticise the prime minister, if it were the entire population would have been in jail while Maggy Thatcher was in power.

 

2:- Homelessness is not illegal and they do not get fined, How do you fine someone with no money I ask?

 

3:- I am not English anyway so my take on this is neutral.

[Lunatic Jedi]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

france was a communist country until 1990 something

 

OH... MY... GOD...

 

I think he's confusing France with Germany! :eek:

 

There you have it folks. We have positive proof, irrefutable physical evidence... that the stupid are among us.

 

France was never a communist country. It was Germany that had a communist government... sort of. The West part of the capital city of Berlin was run by the Soviets, who instated a communist government. To keep the opressed people of West Berlin from escaping, a heavily fortified wall was erected around that portion of the city by the Soviets, the infamous "Berlin Wall." Citizens of West Berlin attempted frequent escapes, but very few succeeded. In 1989, the wall was opened by East Berlin as the Soviet Union collapsed. In 1990 the wall was fully torn down.

 

I hope I cleared that up.

 

Just to summarize... FRANCE WAS NEVER A COMMUNIST COUNTRY! AAAGH!

[JrKASperov]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

Dude from holland you are an idiot, in europe the government can do whatever the hell they want with no concern, in the former USSR people were gunned down for fun, in china people still are, police brutality is necesary and they didnt manage to mace bush THEY TRIED and that surce you gave is utter suck, they only show the one very demented democrat side. you people in europe dont realize that your governments can become police states any time they want to, france was a communist country until 1990 something, and i dont recall ever hearing anything about holland, but im sure they can do whatever they want there too. You people are just lucky the government dosent annihalate those people period. If the police are brutal, there is less crime. Woudl you rather have a few people get beaten or shot or get shot yourself?

 

I am going to have SO much fun replying to this:D

 

Calling me an idiot shows your weakness in arguments.

 

The European governments cant do that, the people WILL revolt and besides, why would the government do that? Europe is the best place to live at this time...

 

Further, you are one misinformed cookie, in the former USSR people didnt get shot for fun, they got shot because they were thought to be a threat.

 

Why is a democratic side demented? Is it because it does not agree with your(shortsighted) ideas?

 

France has never been a communist country...

 

For sure, the government here can NOT in any way do what they want, or they'll get their asses kicked by the people. AND many of the policemen will NOT agree with the ways and not cooperate, in Holland, police have minds of their own too..

 

That there would be less crime if the police is brutal is nonsense, in holland there is quite little crime compared to for instance the US or France or Germany, and our police are extremely non-violent, they cannot even hit someone with a stick without being seriously questioned...

[Darth Knight]

my dad was stationed in germany he said the german police were very brutal, he said they hit this soldier in the face a couple of times becasue he was drunk, if they did that in the us they would be fired and fined and stuff

[JrKASperov]

I doubt this to be the way it sounds Darth knight, I know Germany quite well, and know that wouldnt be done unless:

1) your dad was in a riot, and accidently got seen as a rioter

2) it was some time ago before the nineties, while the Soviets ruled eastern germany...

[TheJackal]

I used to live in Germany during its seperation.

 

Most of the soldiers on the communist side were not hard core kommies. In fact many sympathized and even helped people run across the wall.

 

I did a research on the Berlin Wall last year. I used a book my parents bought while our stay in Germany and it had soo many pictures from the current press.

 

If the guards where truely fallowers of the communist ways, a lot more people would have died by fleeing the country. Often they just turned a blind eye.

 

 

The united states put japanese people in death camps,

 

Not DEATH camps, just concentration camps. They feared soo much all asian citizens because of the war against Japan. I am aware some abuse has happened, but there was no slaughter made by the military nor governement. Its impossible to cover soo many deaths without the whole public to learn of it eventually. Just look at Nazi Germany. There were rumours of it during the war and nobody was sure about it... untill the end of the war at the liberations of the camps.

[CagedCrado]

The point is many countries that have brutal laws and convictions, even if the police are not brutal the system is. IE in japan you might get a life sentence for stealing a purse, and you get no jury in most countries, parliamentary countries seem to be more brutal than truly democratic countries (difference is people actually vote in a democracy, while in a parliament it is mostly done by parties and they throw rich people of the same party int oa position.

 

also it is none of your business if jews in germany sre being systimatically slaughtered, that is germanys business, also rioting just dosent work, if somebody wanted to control france or germany of the UK they could, look at the soviets, look at the nazis, they controlled the country through millitary strength and murder, it is possible in any country under the right conditions, and really who is going to revolt when people can just shoot you if they suspect it.

 

The electoral system lets states cast their votes individually, such as more people in new york voted gore so it went to al gore, and new york is worth x amount of points, and florida is worht x amount of points and bush won, so it is saying that bush will benefit more parts of the country and not just the population centers, wich is a good thing. (FYI typically minorities are democrats because on average their salaries are lower and democrats support welfare [welfare is like stealing from the rich and giving to the poor] also more minorities/poor people live where the population is dense.) (republicans want bigger government, and give money to rich people so that they can give money to the economy and make people richer)

[TheJackal]

parliamentary countries seem to be more brutal than truly democratic countries (difference is people actually vote in a democracy, while in a parliament it is mostly done by parties and they throw rich people of the same party int oa position.

 

your concept of parliamentary countries are off. In my country, Canada, is a federal parliamentary country. Its not political parties who choose to be in power and that only rich people with power and influence that become in the leadership positions. In fact, elections are made BY the political parties. The whole country is devided up into sections (such as American elections are devided up). However, instead of voting for one man or an other, we have 4 or more different political parties to choose. All of which with different goals and views. When the vote is counted in a tally it will declare which political party has one.

 

If I remember correctly there are about 304 electoral counties. After all the voting is done all counties has chosen by vote a political partie and its representative. This representative gets sent to the Parlemential buidling in the Capitol (Ottawa).

 

There, the elected members will most likely work together since... well they are in a party (example: The Liberal Party). This party forms up and decides by itself who will be its leader and its minister of certain affairs (defense, agriculture, health, education, economy, etc).

 

The rest of the elected representative who are NOT part of the big party (example: Conservative Party, NPD and Canadian Alliance). The 2nd biggest party (today it is the Canadain Alliance) will be the "Official Opposition".

 

To pass a law a proposal on the Majorative party will be done official at the House of Commons. There a lengthy debat shall be done. The Opposition will have its say it if it for it or against it. They can delay it all the way. In other words, every law that is past is looked at and examined at carefully. Then it gets passed to the Senate (which is similar to the American Senate).

 

In other words: No soul man is placed in charge of a country such as Canada. The political parties each represent certain goals and political views. Citizens who most likely share those views will vote for them. In other words, we know for sure that the Canadian public is well represented in the government.

 

I do remember once that Bill Clinton visited Canada and said that he truely loved and admired the political system in Canada.

 

 

(its very early in the morning where I am right now and I'm very tired. If i dont make sence just tell me I'll try to fix it up)

[TheJackal]

I got to add one more thing...

 

also it is none of your business if jews in germany sre being systimatically slaughtered, that is germanys business, also rioting just dosent work, if somebody wanted to control france or germany of the UK they could, look at the soviets, look at the nazis, they controlled the country through millitary strength and murder, it is possible in any country under the right conditions, and really who is going to revolt when people can just shoot you if they suspect it.

 

The cases of Germany and Russia are ... different. You have to take inconsideration the fact that uneducation was very high back then and there was the Depression. Hitler rose to power by ELECTION. He never took control of the whole country. In Russia, during WW1 it was under the rule of Tzars, an oppresive royal family who stole the riches from its citizens. It just happens to be that the revolution that worked and did kick them off was Communist. Back then Communist was a brand new idea. Against colonisation and equal rights. Lenin had the right ideas. However nobody knew with time it would get corrupted. I strongly recommend you read : "Animal Farm" by Goerge Orwell. You can really understand a lot better why the people let themself take this sort of change.

 

Back to Germany. It was in a great depression. Poor education. The deutschmark (old monetary system) was worthless. They had to use a wheelbarrow filled with money to purchase a single loaf of bread. Why was the country so poor? The Versaille Treaty (look it up yourself).

 

When a politicly minded man with great carisma promised the citizens of Germany wealth and the removal of the Versaille Treaty they jumped to it. He won by elections. Very few knew about this views againts the Jewish before he was elected to power. Then Hitler slowly took power.

 

You have to take in consideration the people's history. No a days, it is impossible for an "evil" regime to take power in North America, Europe and Asia unless they are voted. Any massing of a military is agains the law.

 

In under develloped countries like in Africa and some in South America, this can be a grave problem. Somalia was under huge political turmoil for years.

[Gummo.nz]

Originally posted by JrKASperov

I'm not just Dutch, I am a Zeeuw(thats somebody who lives in a certain part of Holland called Zeeland). I bet you boys cant pronounce that! Except for padanime and k_star:p

 

And I do not fear rednecks like him, let them come at me, they will only prove there more wrong if they do...

 

I am from New Zealand, does that name originate from Zeeland? or is there a place called Zealand in europe?

[Jedi_Monk]

First of all, here's another first-hand account of the Oregon protest along with some very vivid photos. The guy who wrote it also seems to be a Star Wars fan. Here's the link:

http://portland.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=17932&group=webcast

 

Second, here's a study on the dangers of rubber bullets. While you're reading this article, just remember that there were small children and elderly people in the area that was being fired upon by these things: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/24/health/main510084.shtml

And last, but certainly not least, here's an open letter from the father of the peppersprayed baby.

. Police quickly moved up behind us and a moment or two later sprayed pepper spray into the crowd from the NE corner of the intersection. the crowd ran toward us to escape the spray. We asked the oficer closest to us how we should exit the intersection. He pointed and said to exit to the NE, into the spraying police opposite him. as the crowd pressed toward us I yelled to him to let us through (south on 2nd) because we had three small children. He looked at me, and drew out his can from his hip and sprayed directly at me. I was at an angle to him and the spray hit my right eye and our three year-old who I was holding in my right arm. In the same motion he turned the can on my wife who was holding our 10 month old baby and doused both of their heads entirely from a distance of less than 3 feet. my six year old daughter was holding my left hand and was not hit directly. We ended up on the sidewalk a few feet down alder with fellow protesters holding my screaming children and and pouring water on our eyes....

 

...The children were examined for rhespritory problems and chemical burns. Luckily all were only suffering "normal" pepper spray reactions that have no treatment but to wait. The Pediatrician kept us a little longer so that she could call poison control to check for other recomended procedures as she had never in her career seen an infant pepper spray victim.

 

On the way to the E.R. my three year old said that those guys back there were trying to get us and said we should call the police.

Here's a link to the entire open letter: http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=18010&group=webcast

 

[Lunatic Jedi]

Oh my god.

 

That is just horrible.