State of ProMod beta 3

[Toonces]

You know, that's actually a pretty good idea CoreyGH. Set it so there is two bots running when nobody is on the server, and once a real person joins kick one of the bots, and when a second player joins, just kick the other bot. Might encourage more people to join

[Doctor Shaft]

Oh yeah, I should thank you as well about doing this mod. Like Rage before you with JK2++, you have my sincerest appreciation and following. You've done and are doing unbelievable work.

 

And back to my whining and nagging. I'm guessing with all the other important things being worked on, I guess who have decided not to, or can't really do anything about, the following things.

 

1.)Momentum besides when jumping. Will it have more of an effect, i.e all that weird stupid blocking stuff I constantly post about.

 

2.) Force rage and protect. Any tweaks, csc bonuses there? I guess rage doesn't need anything, you can already swing like a demon. Protect......... it's both an impractical power and almost lame power. Against guns, this power is useless as stun baton. AGainst a lightsaber, it's both super annoying and sometimes super effective.

 

3.) Tell me what your new force power is now!!!!!!! Oh yeah, if you don't tell me, will it be like really useful, something that adds to gameplay, might even be almost a neccesity, or is like 'force hand wave".

 

Thanks again Artifex, you got some appreciating from some of us. We value your work.

[Darth Kaan]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

 

well artifex knows about this, but for your benefit:-

 

ALL the specials are spinnable when playing promod beta 2, and thats from the initial install. I could even run around 'during' the yellow finisher, spin the blue lunge and turn red specials. Admittedy this was intermittent and can not be reproduced on demand but none the less it happened frequently. This simply didnt happen in beta 1.

 

 

Hmmm, okay. I guess I am just lucky then. I, along with the group of 20 who frequent my brothers private server play at least two hours of Promod a day in Duel, FFA, and CTF type games and none of us have EVER experienced spinning Red or Blue specials.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

 

 

Hmmm, okay. I guess I am just lucky then. I, along with the group of 20 who frequent my brothers private server play at least two hours of Promod a day in Duel, FFA, and CTF type games and none of us have EVER experienced spinning Red or Blue specials.

 

Yeah well theres nothing out of teh ordinary here, if it can happen to me it can certainly potentially happen to others so if i found a bug and now artifex has fixed it, then cool!

[ArtifeX]

Hey, wow. The forum's back up.

 

I'm going to respond to some of the above posts in the morning, but I just gotta spill the beans on an addition to beta 3 that I just finished: the new RGB saber code.

 

No, it's not tchouky's code. This has been written from scratch.

 

The basic idea is that all sabers still have a white core, but they have two outer glows, both of which are customizeable. You can fully adjust both of those colors any way you like. The kicker is that you can do this with an in-game ui in the player setup menu that uses the usual lightsaber graphic as a real-time representation of the colors you're working with.

 

I'll post a pic or two in just a bit.

 

*edit* Here's a couple of (large) pics of the ingame saber and the setup screen.

 

 

 

 

You guys have no idea how hard this was to do. I'm going to bed. Right after a big glass of scotch! (Dalmour, single malt = yummy)

[Deetox187]

Wow that sounds awesome, but did you make a new core to go with the sabers? the default core sucks and is totally innacurate to the movies.

[ArtifeX]

Here's a bit more subtle set:

 

http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/white_blue.jpg

 

http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/white_blue_setup.jpg

[Deetox187]

Well i guess that answers my question about the core, no biggie i can replace it myself.

 

Looks really really good, nice work and enjoy the scotch lol.

[thehomicidalegg]

hehe pretty sabres... that'll get more ppl to dl this

[acdcfanbill]

just a note on that second pictures Artifex, but it looks to me like you have the inner color set to blue and the outer color set to white, perhaps this is correct, but its sounds backwards to me, perhaps u could clairfy..

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by acdcfanbill

just a note on that second pictures Artifex, but it looks to me like you have the inner color set to blue and the outer color set to white, perhaps this is correct, but its sounds backwards to me, perhaps u could clairfy..

 

Actually, you're correct. The outer glow is white, the inner glow is blue, and the core is (as always) white. Just thought I'd put that in as another example.

 

Nice thing about having the colors set up like this is that the core will always be visible no matter what someone sets their colors to.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Deetox187

Well i guess that answers my question about the core, no biggie i can replace it myself.

 

Looks really really good, nice work and enjoy the scotch lol.

 

I've been thinking of altering the saber art to more closely match the movies. If you want, post some pics here of what you think the saber should look like and I'll modify the current art to see how it looks.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by CoreyGH

Is there any kind of cap on CSC bonuses? I'm not saying one way or the other that there needs to be, I'm just curious since the bonus meters are finite and you can max out the attack bonus meter just by running forward with strong stance. So, if I'm using Red stance (+5) and I swing and hit your saber (+5) and you're using blue (+5 for trumping you) and I'm running forward (+5) does all this stop somewhere or do I get the complete +20 bonus?

 

There is no cap on the bonuses. The meter is just an approximation of your current bonus. As it stands now, each "tick" is worth 1 bonus point. That will be changing in beta 3 to being worth 2 points each to allow for higher perceivable values.

 

Can you give us an idea of how much the bonus is for falling? Like how much would it be for falling from the maximum height of a level 3 force jump?

 

There's a limit of +40 currently, I believe. Have to check to be sure.

 

You mention that the +10 trumping bonus is "significant" What exactly do these numbers relate to? Better yet, since combat strength is based on aim, if I have a +5 bonus, how many degrees off center can my aim be while still giving me the same combat strength number that I'd get if I had perfect aim and no +5 bonus?

 

It's not a linear scale. Bonus points are more significant as your aim improves. So, if you keep your csc directly aimed at someone, then:

 

+10 = 25 degrees

+5 = ~18 degrees

 

As you turn away from them, each point of bonus becomes less and less significant. Using this system ensures that someone with lousy aim isn't going to suddenly strike a much better prepared opponent just because he stumbled into some bonus by accident.

 

Bonuses are ususally the determining factor between two players who are highly skilled, but mean less for the under-skilled. This eases up those new to the game also.

 

(As I type this, I keep thinking of better ways to ask what is kind of the same question)

 

In the Beta 2 strategy guide there's a colored chart that shows what happens when 2 sabers collide; and the 2 chart axis are based on attacker and defender CS respectively. Both axis stop at 100

 

If I have a large CS bonus, does it only increase the degree range in which I have to aim to reach a score of 100, or can I pass 100 with good enough aim? In effect, If we're both aiming perfectly and our sabers hit, and I have a +15 bonus (for whatever reason) do we get a saber bounce/lock cause our CSs are equal or do I gain an advantage for my bounus? (that's not to say that an increased target size isn't enough of a bonus)

 

Man, just asking this question has given me a better understanding of what's going on with saber combat in promod.

 

Yes, your score can go well above 100 with bonuses included. There is a limit ( that +40 i mentioned above, though it may change ).

 

COMPLETELY UNRELATED REQUEST TO FOLLOW. . .

Can we set the bot-minimum-players on your server to 2? Sometimes I join the server when there's no one there in hopes that it will prompt others to show up. If I had a bot to smack around with my 733t pr0m0d skiz-nilz I'd be able to wait around a lot longer and not get bored as quick.

 

I'll definitely set that up when i get home.

 

:EDIT:

By the way, thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions AND code this mod at the same time.

 

-Soylent Green

 

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

...And back to my whining and nagging. I'm guessing with all the other important things being worked on, I guess who have decided not to, or can't really do anything about, the following things.

 

1.)Momentum besides when jumping. Will it have more of an effect, i.e all that weird stupid blocking stuff I constantly post about.

I'm seriously considering adding momentum as another aspect to deal with. I haven't plotted out all the details, but it'll allow you to use your swings and movement direction to alter your opponent's velocity if his defenses are weak enough.

2.) Force rage and protect. Any tweaks, csc bonuses there? I guess rage doesn't need anything, you can already swing like a demon. Protect......... it's both an impractical power and almost lame power. Against guns, this power is useless as stun baton. AGainst a lightsaber, it's both super annoying and sometimes super effective.

I agree with protect being pretty useless against a gunner unless you've already got high health and shields. I'm not doing anything to it directly in Beta 3, but it shouldn't be a problem anymore, either.

3.) Tell me what your new force power is now!!!!!!! Oh yeah, if you don't tell me, will it be like really useful, something that adds to gameplay, might even be almost a neccesity, or is like 'force hand wave".

Sorry. Keeping that one under my hat for now. You'll get to see it in a couple of weeks. Patience! I can say it'll get used a ton. Probably more than Push/Pull, but less than absorb/drain.

[lost8_again]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

The problem with just listening for a change in pain sound is that, unless you've memorized all the pain sounds, then you'll never know how many "quarters" of health you knocked off of them. I agree that you'd have roughly the same problem if you used the sounds for damage-done feedback, but then at least the learning curve would be shorter because your knowledge would get reinforced every time you landed a swing--no guesswork involved.

 

 

I hadn't thought about this. This is a very good point. I'm in the process of putting together a ProMod Map Pack full of well designed community maps. With the above problem in mind, I should probably do the same for models/skins as well.

 

 

I'm a big fan of visual feedback. Guess it's my background in UI design . With ProMod getting so complex (good thing IMO), the visual feedback is becoming more important than ever to teaching people how to play. For instance, I could just put the Bonus system in place without the Bonus Meters, but I think everyone will agree that the meters are super helpful in learning how that system works. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the better players start turning it off with the console command I provided once they've mastered it. I'll try to keep the "battlesuit" feel to a minimum.

 

This is something that should've been dealt with by lucasarts(sorry artifex, but thank you)it is very annoying when you see about 20 swings that you KNOW were properly landed by you and STILL lose the match due to lack of signals of pain or fatigue:(

On some maps you see a visual representation of the shields being affected when attacked. Why can't the color of the shield signal change per the amount of damage dealt?

With this you pretty much know where you stand(or maybe something more subtle as to not give away the slight element of surprise)like a red shield signal when players health is beneath say...35. In JK1 this was far better than it is in JK2(?)Anyway I'm just tired of timing beautiful swings and landing them only to take away 1hp(???)I know I know promod eliminates this but it should have been dealt with by Raven and not left up to the community to have to deal with.

[DanVan]

Do any of you guys play on european servers (preferably uk)?

 

I love promod, I tried vanilla again last night and absolutely hated every minute of its lameness.

 

However, I'm finiding it a real struggle to find local servers with human players. I now have to read a book while sitting in a server, hoping someone will join

 

Even more worrying, most players I bump into have no idea what promod is, they "just downloaded it - what does it do" <sigh>, it seems that Promod's popularity is low (at least in europe).

 

Someone, please tell me I am imagining this, that suddenly everyone will play it when it leaves beta or that there is a hidden server of joy, full of low ping promod lovers near me.

 

Has anyone any ideas why not many people are playing promod, and how we might increase the number of people playing?

 

Without promod, I really can't really imagine playing JKII much more...

 

Cheers

DanVan

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DanVan

Do any of you guys play on european servers (preferably uk)?

 

I love promod, I tried vanilla again last night and absolutely hated every minute of its lameness.

 

However, I'm finiding it a real struggle to find local servers with human players. I now have to read a book while sitting in a server, hoping someone will join

 

Even more worrying, most players I bump into have no idea what promod is, they "just downloaded it - what does it do" <sigh>, it seems that Promod's popularity is low (at least in europe).

 

Someone, please tell me I am imagining this, that suddenly everyone will play it when it leaves beta or that there is a hidden server of joy, full of low ping promod lovers near me.

 

Has anyone any ideas why not many people are playing promod, and how we might increase the number of people playing?

 

Without promod, I really can't really imagine playing JKII much more...

 

Cheers

DanVan

 

The major problem is, as you said, that very few people know what ProMod does/is. There were tons of people playing Beta 1 because of all the press it got at jediknighii.net, jk2files.com, jedi-outcast.com and moddb.com. Unfortunately, jediknightii.net was having news update problems when Beta 2 was released, and they never managed to post any news about it. That hurt the mod big time.

 

If you'd like to see more people in the servers, then just try to pass the word as much as possible. Most of the regular ProMod players have established groups that they tend to play with on a regular basis. It might be a good idea to start a new thread asking for UK promod players to make themselves known, and tell what servers they play on and when.

 

I've been speaking with the admins of several large tournaments, and http://www.ngi.it is having a ~5000 person tournament the weekend of oct. 25th. I'm hoping...no, I will have Beta 3 ready to go by then. They've already said that they're going to set up their next major tournament to use ProMod. Following that, I'm sure that it'll be getting some major press. Hopefully that will up the number of players out there.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by lost8_again

...

On some maps you see a visual representation of the shields being affected when attacked. Why can't the color of the shield signal change per the amount of damage dealt?

With this you pretty much know where you stand(or maybe something more subtle as to not give away the slight element of surprise)like a red shield signal when players health is beneath say...35.

 

Hmm. you raise an interesting idea here. Changing the shader on the shield already happens based on the strength of the shield, but it's not very apparent. maybe exaggerating this would help.

 

Maybe changing the normal crosshair color to be Light Green when locked on an enemy, then have it fade from light green to yellow to orange to red based on current enemy health would be a good way of relating that information.

 

Both of these are very doable. I'll think about it.

[lost8_again]

(thank you)

I'm not the type to throw out an idea and not feel obligated to help in some way. I got a little bit of coding skill and need to get involved in a game project(hinthint)If I knew where to start with this code I'M SURE i could come to the table with somethin:)

In any case I've been following your work to some degree and think its the most promising of the work being with this game(you da man)With the saber damage I think its important to know where you stand(I would like to do a manual block, hit/combo counter, special move power-up gauge, etc.)especially when you land hits successively

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

Hmm. you raise an interesting idea here. Changing the shader on the shield already happens based on the strength of the shield, but it's not very apparent. maybe exaggerating this would help.

 

Maybe changing the normal crosshair color to be Light Green when locked on an enemy, then have it fade from light green to yellow to orange to red based on current enemy health would be a good way of relating that information.

 

Both of these are very doable. I'll think about it.

[Deetox187]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

I've been thinking of altering the saber art to more closely match the movies. If you want, post some pics here of what you think the saber should look like and I'll modify the current art to see how it looks.

 

Ok heres a few pics to give you an idea, i'll try to find more later if i can. Basically the edges of the core should be straight and the tip rounded off.

 

http://www.imagesjournal.com/2002/reviews/starwars/pic5.jpg

 

http://i.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101020429/gallery/images/gallery_2.jpg

 

http://galactic-voyage.com/images/Episode%20II/Yoda%20vs%20Dooku.jpg

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Deetox187

 

Ok heres a few pics to give you an idea, i'll try to find more later if i can. Basically the edges of the core should be straight and the tip rounded off.

 

definitely get me as many of those as possible. Also, if you can find some from episode 1 and the other for comparison that'd be awesome. I'd just like to see how they changed.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by lost8_again

...With the saber damage I think its important to know where you stand(I would like to do a manual block, hit/combo counter, special move power-up gauge, etc.)especially when you land hits successively

 

I'm rather violently opposed to a manual block button. If you're like me, you've got every key on the left hand side of the keyboard and every control on your mouse bound to something already. I sure as hell don't want to have another press-and-hold button to worry with. Imagine trying to move backward+left while crouching and holding down some manual blocking key. Which fingers are you planning on using for that? Pinky's crouching, ring finger's moving left, middle's moving back, index is hovering over the strafe right key, and thumb's on the spacebar for jump. That leaves your right hand, which is on the mouse. I'll tell you right now that press-and-hold functions on the mouse generally screw with your aim. That's just way too many buttons for too few fingers.

 

Also, a press-and-hold button like that would get abused very quickly by scripters. They'd very quickly script something that turned on blocking all the time unless they were attacking. All you'd need to do would be to bind something like:

 

bind x "-block;wait;+attack;wait;+block;"

 

Then you're back to where you started with 1.04: you're invulnerable when not swinging your saber, or facing away from your opponent (or the 1.04 saber clipping bug rears its head).

 

 

The special move power up gauge is similar to the current bonus meters. I'll be doing something with them in Beta 3 which should make things interesting.

[lost8_again]

SOB your right(LOLOLOLOL)

although I beg to differ with total invulnerability when not swinging I find that you'll still get hit(I tried that...)the only defense I find(if you can call it that)is timing a swing to meet at either the say, first 2 frames(whoa)of the opponents swing or the last 2-3 frames of that swing(???)anyway, it works(almost). I will say that standing idle can be a better defense for SOME attacks(diagonal slashes)

PS

for a complete reference on the way blocking, auto or manual should be done, study Street Fighter 2+.

 

 

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

I'm rather violently opposed to a manual block button. If you're like me, you've got every key on the left hand side of the keyboard and every control on your mouse bound to something already. I sure as hell don't want to have another press-and-hold button to worry with. Imagine trying to move backward+left while crouching and holding down some manual blocking key. Which fingers are you planning on using for that? Pinky's crouching, ring finger's moving left, middle's moving back, index is hovering over the strafe right key, and thumb's on the spacebar for jump. That leaves your right hand, which is on the mouse. I'll tell you right now that press-and-hold functions on the mouse generally screw with your aim. That's just way too many buttons for too few fingers.

 

Also, a press-and-hold button like that would get abused very quickly by scripters. They'd very quickly script something that turned on blocking all the time unless they were attacking. All you'd need to do would be to bind something like:

 

bind x "-block;wait;+attack;wait;+block;"

 

Then you're back to where you started with 1.04: you're invulnerable when not swinging your saber, or facing away from your opponent (or the 1.04 saber clipping bug rears its head).

 

 

The special move power up gauge is similar to the current bonus meters. I'll be doing something with them in Beta 3 which should make things interesting.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by lost8_again

SOB your right(LOLOLOLOL)

although I beg to differ with total invulnerability when not swinging I find that you'll still get hit(I tried that...)the only defense I find(if you can call it that)is timing a swing to meet at either the say, first 2 frames(whoa)of the opponents swing or the last 2-3 frames of that swing(???)anyway, it works(almost). I will say that standing idle can be a better defense for SOME attacks(diagonal slashes)

PS

for a complete reference on the way blocking, auto or manual should be done, study Street Fighter 2+.

 

The blocking of 1.04 is really screwy. It defies description until you pore through the source code.

 

Not sure that SF2 would be the best example of blocking for a 3d shooter. Problem is that you need to be able to block and move at the same time. SF2 forced you to stay still.

[Xzzy]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Not sure that SF2 would be the best example of blocking for a 3d shooter. Problem is that you need to be able to block and move at the same time. SF2 forced you to stay still.

 

This is why the subject of "blocking" in this game requires not thinking in terms of actually stopping a blade, but completely avoiding it.

 

Conscious blocking just won't work. Swings are too fast, too frequent, and the dynamics of a situation change too fast for actual block commands to be effective. Players in this game move around several times more than traditional sword fighters would, and do it with greater agility and speed as well.

 

In other words players already have the tools available to avoid damage. In stock jk2 this is the only measure of player skills.. who can avoid everyone else the best.

 

In my perfect world it seems like the game would benefit from FEWER blocks, because few things are more frustrating than creeping up on two or three combatants, launching your attack, then spending the next 5 seconds with your saber flying around as everybody riccochets off everyone else. If you don't know what I mean, find any no force server on ffa_bespin. Watch the melee mess that inevitably happens in the center of the map.. it's almost ALWAYS going to be a frustrating chaos of saber flashes as people bounce off each other, with almost no actual attacks going on (unless someone dives into the fray with a DFA).

 

I like promod a lot, but with the enhanced blocking system granted via CSC, the situation in large scale melees is even worse.. you almost never kill anyone intentionally, the only way they die is if they walk into your saber after it gets parried.

 

If nimble feet were treated as the best defense one could have, the issue of a blocking key would be nonexistant. From what I understand of medieval swordplay, most of fighting did NOT involve swords banging together and making pretty sparks. Swords were hideously expensive, and hitting your edge against someone else's sword was a really good way to ruin the edge. Most of sword combat revolved around just plain not getting hit.. parries were usually acts of desperation.

 

Does it make sense to do that in a game? Ie, is it fun? I dunno for sure. It seems like the groundwork is already there for promoting a nimble-foot defense and it works well for a skilled player. So I guess the question is to decide whether more blocks would be a good thing, or less blocks would be a good thing.