Promod Fans Please Read

[FatalStrike]

finally someone other then Artifex and I that doesn't sound like the same people that brought us 1.03 (you know who you are!).

 

Stop fearing strong attacks, learn to counter them and you won't have a problem anymore.

 

Fact is none of us know what players will do when a more dealy offense is introduced to the ProMod Defense. We can't base our assumptions on what happened in 1.02 because 1.02 couldn't block anything!!

 

I will yield on the back wards running thing, you guys has made much better arguments then me for keeping it.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

 

4. If the DFA is not to return to the ability to spin, then it needs to be strengthend slightly. Someone that is low on shields and manna that manages to block a well timed DFA should at least be knocked down and not able to back out.

 

 

I love everything you said except this qoute above. You can make it strong enough to cause the gorund to shake and it won't matter because a 1 day gamer can avoid it.

 

Thanks for sharing your ideas!

[Darth Kaan]

True enough. Point well taken.

[taboo]

Another idea might be to allow the DFA to turn while in the air, but to lessen the power of the strike as you turn away from directly ahead. For instance, if you launched a DFA, and your opponent dodges to your left 45-degrees, and you turn to follow him, then you'll lose some of the inertia of the swing, and thus some of the CSC bonus and damage associated with the DFA. It'd have to be a pretty significant amount. A 90-degree turn would have to render the move nearly useless.

 

Great idea. Coupled with knockback/knockdown if it connects, it might bring the moves cost-benefit back into whack. It could be a very nice compromise between the needs of duelists and ffa'ers.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by taboo

 

Great idea. Coupled with knockback/knockdown if it connects, it might bring the moves cost-benefit back into whack. It could be a very nice compromise between the needs of duelists and ffa'ers.

 

Wow I'm not used to people agreeing on forums...

 

*touches the ground*

 

Well hell hasn't froozen over......

[zerowingzero]

K a few points:

 

Fatal: Backpedal speed needs to be slower than forward runing. Why? Jk2 is not a gun only game. In gun only games, backbedaling really doesnt matter because all damage is done long range. With jk2's saber system, you need to make up distance to get attacks. I was suprised how long it took someone who would hold down backpedal and heal in PROMOD, not 1.04, with the bonuses it would make saber fights really goddamn annoying. Factor in saber throw and kick and you got yourself the worst weapon to use. If you don't belive me, set out 20 min and i'll use that strat, you probably won't finish me without useing a gun or posibly speed.

 

 

Spining DFA: more defence breaking, knockdowns would be really cool but there is a problem with that: Knockdowns do nothing

 

Knockdowns: Tap jump as soon as you fall down and your up. Too slow? just push that dfa that's coming to you. Right now, i can never knockdown someone when i need to, at least while not jumping around like a fool. I suggest enter diff getup times for knockdowns or make them more frequent. Which brings me to another point:

 

Pulldowns: If someone force jumps with their back to me, i think it would be right if i pulled them quickly close-up, they would come back AND fall down. It's only logical

 

Also some other stuff:

Increase blue damage a bit, maybe 5, it takes way to long to use the counter system on the fly, maybe you could show me a demo or something, it's harder to do then it is to explain.

 

If you decide to make the DFA spin, limit the degrees it can. Maybe 45?

OR

Make dfa's ability to spin stop when it hits the ground.

 

Also, let suicidebomb DFA's not cancel out after a time, it seems like a waste.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by zerowingzero

K a few points:

 

Fatal: Backpedal speed needs to be slower than forward runing. Why? Jk2 is not a gun only game. In gun only games, backbedaling really doesnt matter because all damage is done long range. With jk2's saber system, you need to make up distance to get attacks. I was suprised how long it took someone who would hold down backpedal and heal in PROMOD, not 1.04, with the bonuses it would make saber fights really goddamn annoying. Factor in saber throw and kick and you got yourself the worst weapon to use. If you don't belive me, set out 20 min and i'll use that strat, you probably won't finish me without useing a gun or posibly speed.

 

Yeah I gave up on the back up speed thing. I posted that I yielded on this point in one of my previous posts in this thread.

 

 

Originally posted by zerowingzero

 

Pulldowns: If someone force jumps with their back to me, i think it would be right if i pulled them quickly close-up, they would come back AND fall down. It's only logical

 

I agree 100%.

 

Originally posted by zerowingzero

Also some other stuff:

Increase blue damage a bit, maybe 5, it takes way to long to use the counter system on the fly, maybe you could show me a demo or something, it's harder to do then it is to explain.

 

I agree blue has a reach disadvantage and this could justify a small power increase.

 

Originally posted by zerowingzero

If you decide to make the DFA spin, limit the degrees it can. Maybe 45?

OR

Make dfa's ability to spin stop when it hits the ground.

 

Hmmm I disagree. I say let the puppy spin but, make a hit points arc for it.

Straight hit (about 10% center) would be full strength,

15 degrees farther right/left - Heavy hit and break points

30 degrees farther - a yellow stance hit and break points

40 degrees after that a blue hit and break points

anything past that or while in the ground after landing would result incidental hit (5 hp no block break)

 

Let the thing turn on the ground if its harmless

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by FatalStrike

 

Hmmm I disagree. I say let the puppy spin but, make a hit points arc for it.

Straight hit (about 10% center) would be full strength,

15 degrees farther right/left - Heavy hit and break points

30 degrees farther - a yellow stance hit and break points

40 degrees after that a blue hit and break points

anything past that or while in the ground after landing would result incidental hit (5 hp no block break)

 

Let the thing turn on the ground if its harmless

 

I disagree. It's not the advantage i'm worried about it is the less than perfect counter block system. In theroy, during the yellow finisher recovery time they are helpless, however some hits DO Get parried. In theroy, useing lightning/drain will leave you vernerable, but still some hits do not go through. Leting it spin might give the dfa a unnatural boost in defence, be simply faceing in the direction of the counterattack.

I need to exparament with this some more, but if it isnt the case i have no problem with it.

[Doctor Shaft]

That's why I suggested in my post that they also be given some kind of csc value. Walking foward will decrease your defense. Glad someone else noticed that force drain and, well, force anything is very safe to use. their animations still block. Yellow finisher, blue lunge, sometimes even red dfa if you stand too far away from them and then charge foward all give the user some kind of defense. I'm all for these moves being very usable, but I'm not for them having defense added to them.

 

If it were possible to give them csc values, it would be great. Then you could give them like a minus 15 csc, something that would ensure that even the crappiest of blue stance swings would injure the opponent should they go into those animations.

 

Give backstab it's spin and it's power. Sure, I'd be happy if i could control my stab these days, but I'm also being punished if I land a backstab now as well. No, I do not walk backwards. But to entertain myself, I try to land one of those flashy moves, just to see. When I do some how land the hit, it gets blocked (GOOD THING), but sometimes I hit, but the damage I trade is ridiculous (BAD THING). Sure, people will initially start spamming backstab if they know that it has the potential to do serious damage, but if you could assign a huge csc defense penalty to these moves, we can watch them happily use their moves all they want, and then appropriately make sardines.

 

Heck, just like the saber throw idea giving you a double damage penalty, why not give getting hit in the back, using a back stab, and saber throw a double damge penalty?

 

Also, if dfa is going to spin, give us back controllable blue lunge too. It's blockable, and if lightstance is always going to be this low damaging poke stance, might as well it back the one offensive weapon it had back. If people thoroughly reject that, then give back the blue lunge in the air. I don't know, I could care less that someone said that blue lunge is a 'SPECIAL'. Glad you ordained a move that is nothing more than a powerful uppercut. If you get rid or alleviate some of it's uber block animations, then spamming it will be dangerous, pending the person knows what he's doing. Even with the animations, there are multiple methods of getting around it.

 

I like the pull behind the back idea as well. Bring the knockdowns back in some form. Maybe not when you're standing in front of me and we're fighting. But how about even if we have a csc clash, and I happen to defend well and win. It would ben ice if I could get really close, and if I happen to get a good csc on the opponent before he I either ducks or aims his csc well enough, then I can knock him down. This would add a little to the atmosphere. I mean, they can already get up pretty fast as is.

 

If that lightsaber is made more lethal, i.e it gets a great deal of it's offensive 1.02 capabilities back, make lightstance not 5 but like 10 points stronger, heck, make it as strong as yellow, I mean it doesn't have nearly as much offesnive clash power, or range. Trade range and offense for speed and defense. Just give it the same amount of power. Who cares if we all go "but where's the incentive to use yellow then"? Well, it has practically the same speed, and if it's 1.02 style, you'll be quite deadly. Blue stance will remain a short range counter system, only much more reliable. right now, it is not the most popular, yellow is. this isn't a bad thing. but it is also the least used stance, and not just because it takes time to master either. Even if you do 'master' it, the rewards are quite small.

 

Great, civil, intelligent discussion.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

 

Great, civil, intelligent discussion.

 

Isn't is GREAT

 

By the way good post, you and ZWZ made excellent posts about CSC values. These must be fixed for added Offense to be possible.

 

I don't know about blue being as strong as yellow but I wouldn't mind testing a stronger blue stance.

 

 

Final thought:

The only way to stop noobs from ruining any great game is by not letting them play, so don't let them shape gaming ideas.

[zerowingzero]

WTF?! A discussion with Fatal and no flames?! H4X!

[Rad Blackrose]

No flames because I haven't posted yet.

 

j/k

 

Excellent post all across the board, I'd say.

[ArtifeX]

Guys, i think you're underestimating Blue stance. I've been using it almost exclusively in 1v1 situations for some time now just to test its balance, and I have to say that I've won the lions share of those encounters.

 

The real power behind the stance is Blue's ability to defend to a degree while attacking. All of Blue's swing arcs are short and directly in front of you (excluding spins). That means that your saber is always between you and your foe if you're aiming somewhere close to them. That makes it much more difficult for enemy swings to bypass your saber and hit your body directly.

 

Most of the ProMod games are running FFA and CTF right now. Try a duel gametype or private duel and give blue a shot. It really is deadly when used under the right conditions.

 

The blue lunge isn't going to be rotateable because in the animation both feet are firmly planted on the ground. I'm only considering the DFA because half of the animation is in the air. As soon as you hit the ground you won't be able to turn any more.

 

Couple of new developments

The in-game server browser for Beta 3 now has a ProMod filter up and running. This'll be a huge help for mod newbies and those that don't like using qtracker or ASE.

 

On Push/Pull: if you get Push/Pulled from behind at close range by level 2 or 3 Push/Pull, it's going to knock you down.

[Walwi Makno]

I haven't played much online lately, because I preferred lightsabers to glowsticks. This mod is great! My friends and I played it at a LAN party and we all thought it was tremendous improvement to the game.

 

I agree with the suggestions to make the DFA and backstab spin. As long as there's less damage the more you turn. I also like the idea of inertia with swings (especially red stance and DFA). More damage or CSC values with chained hits would be nice too. Thank you so much for adding a knockdown factor to Push/Pull. I agree that in 1.03 that it was too easy to do, but it sounds like you've fixed it good.

 

Artifex, keep up the good work, and how about dropping us some hints about that new neutral force power...

[Doctor Shaft]

I'm sure you have dominated with blue stance lately Artifex, however my main issue is just how quick and efficient blue stance is. Right now, yellow stance and red stance can procure quick kills, however blue stance cannot. Now, while you may be of the opinion that we don't need every stance to be the quick killer, I don't know.

 

Just to alleviate anyone's suspicions, I am not a 'blue stance user'. I use it, but it is not my meat and potatoes of moevement. I actually try to rely heavily on heavy, but of course need to use medium to keep up. I actually think that is better, being forced to use normal swings as opposed to heavy blows. But when the opening is right, the heavy blows come out.

 

However, when faced with a good blue stance user, I'd prefer that he were able to off me more quickly. I feel that this would not only make me more happy because I enjoy being schooled fast and furiously by anyone, not just someone who enjoys using blue stance, but also it could promote the other players who come into the game charging with yellow and force them to "calm down". Right now, blue stance gets the job done, but I fell like it doens't get it's point across fast enough. Some people can combo blue stance excellently, and kill quickly. Others, like myself, don't like to combo. I just like to block and get in one hit. It's like ingrained in my body and mind.

 

Perhaps blue matching yellow in damage is a little much. Actually, I don't feel it is. This would in effect slow the game down. Blue stance is relatively easy to block. In its countering though, it's tough to avoid. This would force people to think more carefully, bringing that tension you feel when you see the movies. Anakin taking those wide swings at Dooku, but the whole time you just know that Dooku's style is going to eventually just spread Anakin to thin and waste him. I am a serious dork.

 

I'm also going to say it again, but I would love if you would make those parries, deflects, and knockways more pronounced. Restricting movement and momentum of the opponent. So if I parry, deflect, whatever, the opponent doesn't just watch his saber leap, he finds he loses control of his direction, perhaps jostling his crosshairs a bit. Just ideas though, probably not practical ones.

[thehomicidalegg]

you can give the dfa a HUGE defensive penalty so that even spinning it around would help against a half decent attack

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by thehomicidalegg

you can give the dfa a HUGE defensive penalty so that even spinning it around would help against a half decent attack

 

A red DFA should not be able to block at all. There is no reason for blocking when your saber is in the gorund.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

I'm sure you have dominated with blue stance lately Artifex, however my main issue is just how quick and efficient blue stance is. Right now, yellow stance and red stance can procure quick kills, however blue stance cannot. Now, while you may be of the opinion that we don't need every stance to be the quick killer, I don't know.

...

 

Blue's meant to be used as a whittling style. It's not meant to take someone down in 2 seconds, though it can if you hit the 6-swing combo right. It's difficult to do, as it should be.

 

You generally use it against an overly-aggressive opponent to protect yourself until you can find an opening.

 

I'm also going to say it again, but I would love if you would make those parries, deflects, and knockways more pronounced. Restricting movement and momentum of the opponent. So if I parry, deflect, whatever, the opponent doesn't just watch his saber leap, he finds he loses control of his direction, perhaps jostling his crosshairs a bit. Just ideas though, probably not practical ones.

 

I'm thinking about adding Inertia as a completely new dimension to combat. I'm still hammering out the details, so I won't spill anything here just yet.

[thehomicidalegg]

i mentioned that cuz i think cjais it was who said that many other specials, like yellow dfa and lunge block certain attacks when they shouldnt... if they cant block them then all the better.

[mikus_aurelius]

Artifex mentioned yellow spins and possible solutions. I thought i'd throw my opinion out there. I think a damage/csc bonus is a better solution than speeding up yellow spins. Two reasons for this:

 

1. The yellow spins look powerful, go do one in game, particularly the spin to the right looks like it has tons of momentum behind it. Hitting with that spin (when it ever happens) feels very satisfying, though the damage is the same.

 

2. More impostantly, options. If you want to do a spin thats fast enough to minimize your risk, you already have such a move. blue spins. Variety is the key to interesting tactics. Making yellow spin more like a blue spin only limits options, and i'm never in favor of that.

 

Anyway, what do others think? This is an important topic to me, as i find spins fun, and it would be nice if they became viable.

 

P.S. I have to back artifex up on the power of blue stance, it really wreaks havoc on yellow when used properly.

[AV4T4R]

Artifex, or someone who is working on PROMOD.

 

I'm from ITalian community called NGI, please i would like to talk with u in private!

 

My Icq is : 35433605

 

Contact me

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by AV4T4R

Artifex,

 

I'm from ITalian community called NGI, please i would like to talk with u in private!

 

Contact me

 

Uh - oh

 

ProMod got too much attention and now the mafia is moving to take it over. Artifex don't wear a wire no matter what the feds tell you!!

 

***packs a suitcase and leaves town***

 

 

 

 

Just kidding please don't think this was a flame, I was justing adding some humor.

[NanashiKnight]

I have a problem...everytime i try to load Promod I just get a blank white screen. Id LOVE some help here lol.

[lilJedi]

questions since i am new....what was the saber damage scale in 1.02? what was it in 1.03 and what was it in 1.04?

[ArtifeX]

Damages in 1.02: Light: 30/ Medium: 60/ Strong: 100

Damages in 1.03-1.04: Light: 20-30/ Medium: 30/ Strong: 40-60

 

ProMod Damages: Light: 20-30/ Medium: 60/ Strong: 90