A first look at ProMod 3.0

[Doctor Shaft]

there's no point in putting a fourth level of force powers. Granted, if we look at the whole system as being based on points, then force powers should take a whole buttload, and guns not so much.

 

But remember, the point is to remove the possibility of a style of play that really has no competition. The high speed gun fights of old, unless you put in some totally new complicated fighting system in between all of it, you can't really beat the Quake 3 style of play. People will say it's not Quake 3, but let's face it, it's Quake on crack with Star Wars-esque guns. Artifex put a higher value on those guns because we know from experience that those weapons are extremely versatile, some of those guns work well in all situations of combat.

 

Also, less points on the force powers means that a pure, complete jedi can exist to fight the awesome gun power. If a level 4 gun gets less ammo consumption, AND more power, then I better have the ability to have a slew of force powers at my disposal to counter.

 

My only concern is that with the powers as they are, they are kind of ineffective against gunners. I already mentioned my concerns previously about certain powers. I still think stuff like grip and lightning are seriously useless when it comes down to fighting guns, and while I don't want to be running around with a 'force gun', i certainly wish those powers were more versatile, like stunning, slowing a target down, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing all the force powers have some sort of twist. Promod mind trick has one. i don't want the twist to be an extra level though. Just something that makes force powers more part of the game. Whatever, it's good as it is. We'll see.

[ArtifeX]

I'm sure there will be some work to do with the balance of the new system once it's released. Some of the Force Powers/Weapon Skills will probably need a boost/minus. Currently I'm looking at Grip, Push/Pull, Flechette and the Demp for some adjusting (yes, I want to make the Demp not suck).

 

Update:

I'm ironing out the remaining bugs, and looking at how I'm going to implement the jetpack and the new force power. I'm pretty confident that I can pull them both off.

 

With adding both of those, I'd say 2 weeks for a public release. The new force power will be especially sticky, as the current number of force powers is so heavily integrated into so many places in the code. Surprisingly, I think the jetpack will be really easy to code. Now I just need to find a modeller...

[Lathain Valtiel]

Wait, last I checked the DEMP 2's secondary can't be blocked... And has splash damage with a fairly nice radius.. I say it does NOT suck, but eh...

 

First, ZWZ, I knew that already, but the logic goes, why is there a mastery level above the former counterparts for guns, yet not for Forces? That's my ONLY hitch with this. In fact, I can see a creative way of how to use a 4th Level mastery of Sabers going, after all, aren;t THEY weapons too?

 

Here's a nice example.. I remember hearing Arti here say that if and when he does a 2 saber style, it will be designed for pure offense. Well then, if there was a 4th Force level, why not make it so that this specialized offemsive style gets in the hands of people who raise say, Saber Attack to 4? I daresay that makes sense, a specialization in Attack getting you a, surprise, purely offensive style.

 

Same goes with Arti's Lightstaff idea, but for Saber Defense.

 

I think it's reasonable for Sabers at least, considering they are weapons just like the Guns...

[FatalStrike]

The Demp 2

 

- Its primary fire is slow, easy to dodge, and weak.

 

- Secondary Fires is instant hit with a huge splash, but is weak relative to the time it takes to fully charge

 

- This weapon is rare, since very few maps have it available.

 

 

 

If you wanted to make it better, make the secondary fire result in a greater knock back when fully charged. Increase it rate of fire in Primary. However these changes willnot mean much since its so rare.

[Toonces]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Now I just need to find a modeller...

 

I replied to your inquery via PM ArtifeX, I'm not sure if you got it or not

[Doctor Shaft]

Push/Pull and Grip eh?

 

Oh yeah, I could agree with Fatalstrike's idea, although that would lend to some major kiddie spam "haha, i knocked you all down again!!!" Perhaps make the final charge eat great deals of energy, i don't know.

 

In terms of push/pull, right now it's obviously almost impossible to knock down unless you have a higher level of push/pull. But how often is that going to happen? Not much.

 

Anyway, it would be good if the following would happen, pending the person isn't crouching, and you have equal levels of the power.

 

1.)Person's force pool is at 25% or less, equals knockdown. Or maybe like 15%, although I like it when I have to be very careful about what I do.

 

2.)If a person has back turned, close range, knockdown (I assume that would be too complicated to code accuratel).

 

3.)Person gets jump, close range knockdown.

 

4.) I don't know if you actually changed much in terms of the saber combat mechanics besides the trump system. But what about the possibility that during csc match ups, ie when a saber clash comes and the csc check goes in your favor, and you knock the person back or whatever, allow a knockdown their as well, or at least the possibility.

 

5.) If you are being gripped, and say the person succesfully gets in like two full seconds, or three, then if they decide push at the end, knockdown.

 

6.) For the light side users, a person uses the darkside powers, you absorb that stuff, you get a small window to take the energy you earned to knockdown, regardless if they're crouching or not. So you'd actually counter rather than just stand there. Or you could just stand there... standing there is cool.

 

7.) Using push/pull, in order to put some danger into using a more dangerous power, should leave you, saber AND force power wise, defenseless for a second or two. You get a huge csc penalty -- i.e. you're helpless -- and you can't just jump or speed yourself away. Oh, and you're knockdowns all have to occur with both feet on the ground, no launching yourself in the air and pushing everyone off their feet.

 

Of course, this will lend to people getting all push/pull happy virtually every swing. Something clever would have to be done to make a person pay for taking that chance. I have no imagination

 

Grip is a hard one. I'm not concerned about damage. It does good damage if you manage to hold it long enough on someone. It would be nice if you could get rid of the ability to fire weapons while gripped. Maybe it won't make much sense to people, but that's like a freebie right there. "oh, i'm gripped, that just makes it easier to shoot you". Also, it is completely useless escept at level 3 when you can move them off a ledge. Even then, it's mostly a suicide drop tool, or a ctf suicide drop tool, nothing more.

 

If you were to increase the damage that grip does, maybe you could give grip a kind of lock on thing, like the rocket launcher. Right now, it's basically press the button and wait, and then people take like 2 damage and end up hurting you more. If it did more damage off the bat, you try to lock on, but the lock can be busted by getting hit, blocking another lightsaber attack, using another force power of your own, including force jump, having a push or pull being used on you, etc. etc. etc. It would be hard to get the lock, but if you got it, you could do something pretty annoying.

 

If not that, then just do what JK2++ did. At level 3 you were able to move you opponent as fast as you could fling your mouse. Some people were able to keep you from getting a succesful push or pull quite well, some people would fling you around, then jump in the air and drop you. It worked to a degree, but wasn't extremely effective, just annoying.

 

And the new force power should be Force Beg for Mercy. This way, when someone has me near death, I can hear my model scream and cry in agony before it's destroyed. ahahahahahah... no.

 

Oh yeah, and when your server finally goes back up with the offical 3.0 release, please put dismemberment on. I just gotta see the torsos, the bottoms of legs (which i most frequently get), and arms come off.

[Mex]

Grip is sooo annoying, some stupid child comes on, "look at this!" *drops down hole* "ahahahhahahahhahahahaha! LOLOL" .... Haha, not...

[FatalStrike]

as for push pull, you all do realize that in 1.02 you could not be knocked down by push/pull if you stood still correct?

 

In 1.02 people anticipate your pull and/or push and stop for a sec and attack you while you recover. I really don't understand the use of "Pro" in "ProMod" with so many people having noobish worries. Honestly people if you can't dispatch a spammer with ease, you shouln't have your name associated with the 3 letters P-R-O.

 

Spamming is the concern of a noob. Good players shouldn't give a rats ass about a spammers since the conern of a good player is winning and not "making it real" or having it "look cool" A spammer = easy target so please lets not worry about that crap.

 

Also I would it be possible to up the animation speed of a back stab? I have noticed that falling in ProMod happens less often then sprouting wings, and don't see the harm in my being able to use a BS when some noob attemps to go around me. I could simply strafe turn BAM! You could NOT ass fight due to the deadly saber and the no ass blocking. Seriously a quick BS is a great and difficult to execute attack against annoying circle around you fighters. Problem is the BS is so slow that you couldn't catch a a one legged cat with it.

 

Lets put the Pro into ProMod and make this more then a simple saber swing Mod. Return the special moves but eliminate one hit kills. That way we all have wonderful attacks, but none of those lucky kills that pissed off duelers.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Flanders

Grip is sooo annoying, some stupid child comes on, "look at this!" *drops down hole* "ahahahhahahahhahahahaha! LOLOL" .... Haha, not...

 

Be careful your statement has put you on a "noob watch"

 

I don't know of any good players that have trouble braking out of grip unless they have 0 force remaining.

[Mex]

I was doing an example Mr.Ithinkiknowitall unless you are brain damaged and think otherwise, I have the common sence to use absorb, but some other people.... Do not...

 

Example : Bespin map, On the pad, grip and push, = Goldmine for idiots,

 

Counter absorb, : Go and saber the gripping idiot while he is still trying to counter your absorb

 

And I think protection should make the grip do 0 damage.

 

And I also think, Mind trick should be changed! Once I have finished my dinner, I shall be back P.S I am not a noob

[Doctor Shaft]

Change mind trick? To what? It's a mind trick.

 

It's fine as in Promod. It's difficult for the person to see you. When you swing or attack, the trick is over. It's great. You need an equal level of force sight to catch the person.

 

And, since everyone likes guns, it'll be useful for those who don't have enough points to use other powers.

[Mex]

I think it should perswade another player to think he is another player (or bot) and then when they hit it or use force, it disappears

 

Or well in otherwords, a temporary illusion

[Syfo-Dyas]

Since this is turning into a debate thread about ProMod and guns, I thought I'd try and keep the State of ProMod3 active with stuff that would probably be a little off-topic in this thread.

 

I posted a question there which you can check out by clicking here .

[Rad Blackrose]

Flanders = Idiot. Enough said.

 

If there is one thing I would like to see altered in grip, it would be the ability to do damage via throwing people into walls, ceilings, floors, etc. I mean come on, we have the bastard lifted in the air already. Why not make him regret it?

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Push/Pull and Grip eh?

 

Oh yeah, I could agree with Fatalstrike's idea, although that would lend to some major kiddie spam "haha, i knocked you all down again!!!" Perhaps make the final charge eat great deals of energy, i don't know.

 

In terms of push/pull, right now it's obviously almost impossible to knock down unless you have a higher level of push/pull. But how often is that going to happen? Not much.

 

Anyway, it would be good if the following would happen, pending the person isn't crouching, and you have equal levels of the power.

...

 

I'm really wary of doing too much to TK attacks at one time. Push and Pull are arguably the most useful force powers right now, even with their inability to knock someone down of equal power level. Just by making them knock an opponent down when close and within the target's rear-facing 45-degrees will make many people start using them a lot more. Once 3.0 is out there, I'll see how that affects things and make adjustments as necessary.

 

I did turn dismemberment on in Beta 2 by default, but only set the server variable to "1", which hardly ever results in a dismember. It actually needs to be set to "100" to happen every time you get killed from what I hear. I also set the default client side variable to "1", but people's jk2mpconfig.cfg file will probably set this to "0", so they'll have to enable it manually to see the effect.

[Mex]

Rad Blackrose = stupid idiot nuff said....

 

And are you going to think about my idea??

 

Mind trick = Temporary illusion?

[Doctor Shaft]

I believe you do need to set it to 100 to get it all the time. I usually put in some outrageous number like 300 or something, works all the time, looks wonderful.

 

You're right about tk, as much as I wish it would knockdown at some point, for now it's probably best left as is.

[thehomicidalegg]

from 100-300 its the level of dismember i believe.... 100 only cuts of arms while 300 allows everything to b cut of i think

[taboo]

Looks very promising Artifex. As per usual, the devil is in the details so I imagine there will be some adjustments to be made along the way but whoa Nelly, it looks damn good.

 

Will you be beefing up the DFA at all? I'm not a big fan of the 1.02 DFA but in its current incarnation it seems pretty useless.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by taboo

Looks very promising Artifex. As per usual, the devil is in the details so I imagine there will be some adjustments to be made along the way but whoa Nelly, it looks damn good.

 

Will you be beefing up the DFA at all? I'm not a big fan of the 1.02 DFA but in its current incarnation it seems pretty useless.

 

The DFA is a sticky subject. Some people still seeth at the thought of the DFA becoming too useful once again. When it comes down to it, most saber fighting should be done on the ground, with aerial attacks thrown in only in the rare circumstances where they're useful. I think the special moves in general need a slight, and I do mean slight beefing up. Once I get some things that I'm currently working on ironed out, then I'll see about adjusting them.

[FatalStrike]

What make special attacks cheap?

 

Lets start with everyone’s favorite the DFA, red stance.

 

Problems with the Red Stance DFA was obvious, its was buggy and too effective. It was a crushing attack that took out low to medium skilled players with ease. However to go along with its power it had a bug the toe kill. If you stepped on a buried saber, BAM, you died. That is idiotic and frankly more then slightly annoying.

 

The DFA was “fixed” by Raven with a complete nerf job. Instead of addressing it problems they decided to avoid having to actually fix its buggy coding by making it a silly straight arrow move that is completely without use in high level competition. On top of that they gave it a ridiculous recover time so as to prevent over use. It is my opinion that Raven took the easy way out in addressing this; perhaps they didn’t have programmers that had enough available time to lend to this area. Nerfing it was quick and easy.

 

My suggestions are simple, allow the DFA to spin, but do not allow it to spin once it has landed. If there is a way to stop the toe kill, that would be great, but stopping it from spinning once it landed would make avoiding a motionless saber incredibly easy. Also I would weaken it. If you want less people to use it, remove its one hit kill ability. This way this does in fact become a finisher, since to use it as an opening move would be unwise. I suggest giving it the attack strength of a single Yellow stance hit. It already has a huge attack advantage since it is harder then many attacks to avoid, so its penalty should be that it is the weakest of all heavy stance hits.

 

My solution would – stop its over use, since missing would leave you motionless and in ProMod; Standing still = death. It would eliminate over use since it would be too weak to allow you to use it over and over again in FFA. Landing a hit would not guarantee a kill but sitting still in an FFA battle zone would kill you. It would also give us another viable attack option.

 

Stay tuned for my Back Stab Rant coming soon

[FatalStrike]

Back Stab Rant as promised!

 

What made the BS the cheapest of all moves in JKII history? Force Pull and Uber blocking.

 

Force Pull resulting in so many knockdowns coupled with the no bounce off effect of 1.03 made BS the ultimate killer. Many people blamed the fact that it could spin, but I ask you, how would that have mattered if you didn’t fall down?

 

Also how would you use a BS if you couldn’t block so many hits? Do you think that you could ass fight in ProMod? No you would get cut in half, as all of us you play ProMod know – if your enemy gets behind you, you die.

 

So I say allow the back swing to spin, if it doesn’t the animation speed is to slow to actually hit someone. We have already established that you can’t @ss fight, you can’t pull people down, so why not?

 

Many ProMod players attempt to move around you, and a BS would be a perfect counter for those that come to close when they attempt this. It would be difficult to pull off fast enough so that you don’t get your self killed, and have no (read: Zero, Nada, uh uh, nil, never) spam ability.

 

Once again we would have another attack without the spam. A very hard to pull off move that one done correctly would result in good damage, but the risk would be very high indeed.

 

/rant

 

Also please note that it is important that ALL special moves result in a bounce back effect so they do not end up hitting 2 or more times.

 

THE END

[ArtifeX]

Specials with knockback that disallowed multiple hits would cause the specials to do very little damage, especially the DFA. You almost always hit near the beginning of the animation with the DFA, where the damage is very small. If you added knockback to that hit, that would push your target out of range of the rest of the swing, and have him end up with maybe 30-40 points of damage, tops.

 

The only time I'm going to consider using any knockback effect is when two sabers collide. One player would have to be using a swing that overpowered the defender's block. Such as Strong swing vs. Blue defense.

 

Just have to wait and see if I can fit it in.

[FatalStrike]

BS must have a knock back or its one hit and bye bye.

 

However I see your point with the DFA.

[Doctor Shaft]

I'm all for the dangerous revival of special moves. I had said it over and over many times myself that the backstab was never a problem in 1.03. Some people, who think the 'balance' of the game was seriously messed up by having a backstab move do so much damage, and perhaps it was odd that 90% of the swings were turned into wiffle bat attacks and then the backstab could do tremendous stuff. But it wasn't the backstab that ruined 1.03, it was the force pull issue, and the incredibly over-the-top blocking system. Some people, now playing 1.04, have gotten good at playing with the low damage, random blocking sabers. Credit is given to them where credit is due, I personally couldn't stand how the system worked, and while I certainly did not suck, my way of thinking and seeing the game did not match what was actually going with the game.

 

Promod does not have random or over the top blocking, and matches more closely with what I see and think while playing. It also means, as Fatalstrike said, that a powerful backstab is not dangerous or over the top at all. Remember, a blue BS still takes time to animate. The person has to be precisely lined up to get it to activate, and you can still very easily land a shot into their back. Right now, it's utterly worthless. Seriously, back stab actually hurts you more than it does the opponent, and that's just for trying it out. So far, after testing the move, I've landed the hit about six times, good hits. The damage i did was... tada... 30!!! Meanwhile, while I'm going through this whole long animation sequence, looking all cool, sticking my saber through their body, and what not, they proceed to hit my two times in yellow stance and kill me. I'm glad that yellow stance killed me quickly, because I can't stand the general public view that unless we are firing a gun, everything should take several hits to kill us, but it peeves me that I went through all that trouble timing my opponents approach, lining up the attack, and then landing it, only to realize that I should never have tried the attack in the first place. There's never a good reason to use it.

 

Also, even though I did hit, like Fatalstrike said, there is no knockback, so I not only hit, but I then I just stood there. It was like I had turned my lightsaber off and started typing "hehe, let's see how fast you can kill me". The blocking in Promod is good, in fact, better than good. I used to have trouble ensuring that I would get a block, but after practicing, I can now often ensure myself that I can block a technique. Sometimes, I don't even really run that much, I run in, but then start walking, I like to crowd the person, and the blocking matches my aiming ability. A powerful backstab, i.e one that would do damage like a red stance swing, heck i would go for even higher than that, would be nice. In terms of letting it spin, I fear that would allow someone to literally do a spinning top thing with their backstab out, effectively making the move uncounterable. It would be one of the safest sabering moves in the game. I would like if we could do high damage backstabs, but also if the move had enough delay in it to make a player pay for his mistake, dearly.

 

For the DFA, having it not do a one hit kill would ge silly looking. You went through all of that effort, only to bear no fruit. Personally, I think the DFA was a silly move ot make to begin with. Making it spin in the air also is bad, because it just causes people to jump all around with it. I'm not afraid of the DFA, in any case, but it also just looks and feels ridiculous compared to the overall saber combat. Rather than make it spin, etc, since it does look like it's a kind of force motivated jump, rather than a realistic one, why not just speed up it's trajectory. Make the lunge of the attack come out faster. I don't know, even shorten the jump length, or the time it takes to get the swing out, but leave in all the recovery time, etc.

 

I have tons of thoughts spewing in my head, bear with me. If saber combat did allow a person to knock a person off balance in confrotation, like I the idea I had been putting out before with momentum, and such, then the DFA as is would be a good and useable move. Knock person off balance in a block, the opponent goes through his block animation, but he is slowed down and effectively stunned, only to watch as the DFA lands on him. That would be good, but it seems Promod will not be able to have that kind of stunning, so this idea is kind of flat.

 

Sorry Fatal, I am always a supporter of dangerous lightsabers, but I just can't think of how to implement the DFA and make it useful without basically reverting back to the old style. It's not impossible to beat, but the majority of Promod players would probably reel back and reject the game.