Snipers

[Crazy_dog no.3]

CorranSec- Jedi are "infantry" too, as in u don't control Jedi's in Tanks. It would make more realism sence to make Jedi victims to sniper too.

[Sithmaster_821]

Sniper limit would be too complecated. I believe that slow reload, movement and high cost will do the trick.

Agreed

 

One hit kill is bad. Think that they should have a bonus vs troopers, but no more than like say strikes or DD's.

 

The high evade is just as, or maybe more so, overpowered as cloaking

 

yes, now THIS group of AAM's is the sacrifice group, so this SECOND group can come up and kill the AC's that have already used their rare, almost spell-like attack

Jedi are "infantry" too

I was under the assumption that jedi are jedi. I could be wrong

[darthfergie]

Jedi are infantry. They have no armor, so they are technicly weaker then standard infantry in that regard...they just have more HP, and have melee and can convert...but they are really a class of infantry, because they are neither cavalry, airborne cavalry, nor armored cavalry...they fit right into the infantry classification even though they have melee capabilities.

 

BTW, who actually used the convert speciality for Jedi much? I know I didn't it was too much of a pain to cast since in AoK it was on autocast for a Priest...just click on an enemy and instead of running up to it to kill it, the priest would convert it. Much easier and quicker system...thus making the Jedi very ineffecient anyways...sorry...just a side note there...

 

[edit]I retract my earlier statement about Jedi having no armor...Jedi Knights and Masters do in GB (pretty stupid tho considering the force is their "armor" and they have no real armor in most cases)[/edit]

[CorranSec]

No, people. Jedi are jedi. They are their own unit class. Thus, strike mechs are not good against jedi, and bounty hunters are not good against troopers. Well, they're not designed to be, anyway.

 

And people! Even if they are in the current game, we can change that for GB 2! Nobody seems to be aware of the fact that we are not actually in a real living SW world, and we do have the power to change things.

 

Jedi will murder snipers because:

a) It's good for gameplay

b) I want them to.

You can't make lots of snipers! That's why they aren't gods and aren't overpowered.

Anti-sniper detector mechs are:

a) mechs

b) mechs that are detectors

c) mechs that are detectors that you bring along to kill snipers, because mechs are good against snipers.

Thus, I would call them anti-sniper detector mechs. They're not a specific unit class. They're just any detector mechs that you bring along to protect your infantry against snipers.

Light mechs are NOT gone, because snipers don't have an ability to 'shoot through their canopies.' Do you know why? Because I said so.

 

See? We can do whatever we want!

 

Here is the tally of sniper goodness:

1) stealth

2) long range for a trooper

3) built late-middle game

4) Good against infantry (large bonus, not good against much/anything else).

5) costs a lot

6) only have 10 at a time

7) And, okay, I see your point. Fast load time, but not as much damage.

 

Luke's dad: They are cloaked because I want them to be cloaked. Why have this 'evasion' thing instead of true cloak? It takes away the gameplay and fun values, thus, cloaking is better.

People. nobody seems to have understood my last post.

[Sithmaster_821]

Slow reload time and high attack and no stealth and no limit.

Jedi are infantry. They have no armor, so they are technicly weaker then standard infantry in that regard...they just have more HP, and have melee and can convert...but they are really a class of infantry, because they are neither cavalry, airborne cavalry, nor armored cavalry...they fit right into the infantry classification even though they have melee capabilities.

Try using strike mechs, or dd's, against jedi, and get back to me. In fact, mounties, which dies to troopers, are the early jedi counter

[Darth Windu]

With the Sniper idea, i like it, but to get its specs you have to look at realism first. This would dictate that the Sniper has-

1. Little/No Armour

2. Long Range/LOS

3. Long Reload time

4. Be expensive

5. Long build time

6. Medium speed

7. High attack power

8. Excellent vs troopers/workers/medic, low vs jedi, no damage to mechs, ships, air and heavy weapons

 

I think that this would also work well in gameplay balance, although cloaking like jedi could be an option to look at.

 

Failing this, why not make the Sniper a UU for the Rebels or another mobile, trooper-based civ?

[CorranSec]

Sith- Why??

 

Windu- Er... I think I have looked at realism first. And why do we have to look at it first anyway?

Okay. About your stats:

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. I'd prefer the short reload time and lower damage, but it really doesn't make all that much difference

4. Yes

5. Not THAT long, but yes

6. What exactly is 'medium speed'?

7. Look at 3

8. It should still do some damage to ground units apart from troopers. You can't have a unit that can do no damage whatsoever. But yes, the damage will be pretty low.

9. Cloaking is an essential!

10. I think that different versions of the Sniper should be available to several different civs. Failing that, though, the Sniper could be the same for all of the civs that possess it- this is because it is a 'mercenary' type of unit, like a bounty hunter.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Jedi are infantry because the term infantry desribes any soldier who does not use generally does not use vehicles (exept for long-distance travel and the like). As the Jedi temple makes Jedi who are not in tanks or ships, they would be defined as infantry.

In the same way medics, bounties and berserkers define as infantry.

[Darth Windu]

"Jedi are infantry" - Wrong. Infantry refers to the combat soldiers of an armed force, generally an army. Infantry can refer to airborne, armoured, light etc troops. However the term does not include such positions as 'bounty hunter', medics etc, and in this case, Jedi. The jedi are a class by themselves. When was the last time you saw a stormtrooper use the force or reflect a laser back at a rebel?

 

With the sniper thing, again i say look at realism to dictate gameplay. Sniper's (good ones anyway) will kill enemy soldiers with one hit. However their rifles are almost always bolt-action (as opposed to the fully automatic assault rifle), and also have to search for targets through a scope, track, and then finally fire.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Stealth=overpowered.

 

Jedi is not infantry at least not regular one.

 

darthfergie-use the ''C'' key to convert. much faster

 

Corran-to answer the question you asked sith: They are not so good vs jedi.

[Kryllith]

The reason I suggested snipers moving quickly is because a lot of people wanted them not to have stealth. Personally, I'd prefer they have the stealth function and give them slower speed as a result (sneaking). As for it causing problems with anti-stealth units, I'd say it depends on what type of anti-stealth units were available... (assuming GB2 here).

 

Kryllith

[Sithmaster_821]

The only way it would be not overpowered was if every unit was anti-stealth, which kinda negates the bonus.

[CorranSec]

Crazy dog..... listen to what I've been saying. In terms of GB 2, a GAME, in STAR WARS, I am making fictional snipers bad against fictional Jedi.

 

Why is stealth overpowered? If it's slow, has a slow reload time, is only good against troopers, and there can't be many, stealth works great.

Stealth is one of the most important aspects of any sniping unit. If we do use realism and the generally accepted visions of 'snipers,' they're always hiding somewhere, in deep cover, and sneak around everywhere. It's a simple matter in the SW universe to convert this to actually possessing a cloaking device. Or some such.

 

Hopefully in GB 2 there will be plenty more stealth units, the sniper being just one of them. Thus, there will be more detector units. Thus, snipers will not be overpowered.

 

The stealth is the thing that makes the snipers fun and viable. The limit is the thing that makes the snipers balanced and not overwhelming.

 

Picture this- without the limit, a huge force of snipers could do a damned lot of damage (just like a huge force of anything). Considering that snipers are a unit designed to go against the core units of the game (troopers), we don't want them to be in masses. Even underpowered masses.

[Sithmaster_821]

Stealth makes them overpowered because, even with your limit, they can be massed more effectively than masters and used more purposefully than gungan frigates. Insane range and stealth amount to a very strong geurrila unit, capable of picking off a couple of units and then fading before the enemy knows what happened.

[darthfergie]

Originally posted by CorranSec

3. I'd prefer the short reload time and lower damage, but it really doesn't make all that much difference

 

WTF?

ONE SHOT ONE KILL...the dmg needs to be enormous and reload needs to be incredibly crappy.

 

Crazy dog..... listen to what I've been saying. In terms of GB 2, a GAME, in STAR WARS, I am making fictional snipers bad against fictional Jedi.

I can see that. Long distant shot...lots of time to block...in GB it would be impossible, but with a low amount of civs I can see blocking shots being possible:p (just another bit of extra gameplay that will be sacrificed if you take too much time and memory on too many civs)

 

Picture this- without the limit, a huge force of snipers could do a damned lot of damage (just like a huge force of anything). Considering that snipers are a unit designed to go against the core units of the game (troopers), we don't want them to be in masses. Even underpowered masses.

 

wow...what have I been saying all along?

If you make a powerful unit like this, you arn't gonna put a seperate pop limit on it...sorry. That's stupid. What you do is you make it less powerful. Look at the sniper on RA2. It has no stealth, one hit kills on all infantry including Tanyas and they have no pop. limit. They can be made in mass numbers, but why? They cost a ton to train experts like that and a tank rush would tear you to shreds, but then most people didn't wait for tank rushes...they just sent them into the area right outside somebody's base and picked off their infantry...but it would be much worse in GB...the workers will most likely be susceptable to the sniper's fire, but in RA2 the harvesters can eat up the snipers and make you feel real stupid...

[simwiz2]

1 shot kills but long reload is a microing hell - it encourages outrageously effective hit-and-runs. Think about using the AC. You tell them to attack ground at a spot and then what? You run them away! So rather than telling a unit to attack and moving onto another part of the battle, the sniper-user would have to be running snipers back and forth (or be using the snipers at less than maximum potential), and the opponent must keep telling his sniper counter units to attack, stop attacking (so they don't run out too far and die), attack again, etc. Sure this is a worst-case scenario and assumes at least one side has nothing better to do than micro. However, this happening even rarely would be a very negative effect on gameplay.

[CorranSec]

Sith- Snipers can't be massed more effectively than the GB1 masters, seeing as you can have hordes of them (with enough money), and they are damned good against a damned lot of things.

GB1 gungan frigates are a different case, because they're sea units, have stealth from the very beginning, and aren't designed for the same purpose as the snipers.

 

Fergie-

The damage doesn't need to be enormous against everything. It's just a programming thing- if a sniper hits a trooper, it dies. It's like grenadiers having only 1 damage, but being quite good against mechs.

But I see simwiz's point, and so, we have low-damage faster-reload snipers.

What is this 'lots of time to block'? Are you talking about Jedi blocking shots? Let's not start on that again. And snipers wouldn't be attacking Jedi anyway.

I'm sure there were cases in RA2 of people using massed numbers of snipers to great effect, especially if they had backup (to counter the tank rushes).

My snipers would be an irritant. They would sit around your base and pick off your infantry (and maybe workers), and you'd have to trundle out some kind of detector to find them, and they'd run away. But any focussed defense- mobilising a bunch of mechs, a squadron of fighters swooping down to pick them off- would kill the snipers.

Having a pop cap does indeed make the sniper less powerful, as you can't mass it like you can others.

[darthfergie]

Fergie-

The damage doesn't need to be enormous against everything. It's just a programming thing- if a sniper hits a trooper, it dies. It's like grenadiers having only 1 damage, but being quite good against mechs.

 

sorry if you misconstrued my remarks...they weren't all that clear now that I look back at them, but I ment against infantry

 

But I see simwiz's point, and so, we have low-damage faster-reload snipers.

 

...um...what point is that? why would snipers ever do low dmg? it's like making a new repeater trooper...just a clone of another unit.

 

What is this 'lots of time to block'? Are you talking about Jedi blocking shots? Let's not start on that again. And snipers wouldn't be attacking Jedi anyway.

 

a long distance shot takes a while to get there, no? And Jedi blocking shots. Just another level of uniqueness that could be added to GB 2 if they didn't have to waste their graphical power on 15 civs

 

I'm sure there were cases in RA2 of people using massed numbers of snipers to great effect, especially if they had backup (to counter the tank rushes).

 

mostly no. Most of the time, few snipers are made and more focus is given to other more vital parts. Allthough snipers are sometimes used to good effect, but not regularly

 

My snipers would be an irritant. They would sit around your base and pick off your infantry (and maybe workers), and you'd have to trundle out some kind of detector to find them, and they'd run away. But any focussed defense- mobilising a bunch of mechs, a squadron of fighters swooping down to pick them off- would kill the snipers.

 

that's what most people used them for...although it didn't work well against some russians when they would focus on the tank warfare part.

 

Having a pop cap does indeed make the sniper less powerful, as you can't mass it like you can others.

 

yes, but it's also annoying and stupid to put one it there. If they amass a bunch, let them amass them at their perril. They will die when the other side uses a tank rush.

[Kryllith]

Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

The only way it would be not overpowered was if every unit was anti-stealth, which kinda negates the bonus.

Not really, just make fighters anti-stealth. They could find and eradicate snipers without fear of retaliation. Ground units wouldn't be so lucky. Or, if you're worried about fighters taking out starfighters if given anti-stealth, then why not generate 2 (or even 3) levels of stealth. Certain units (scouts, for example) would be able to see higher level stealth, while others (fighters) might see lower level stealth. Then just give snipers lower level stealth and jedi higher level stealth...

 

Kryllith

[Sithmaster_821]

1 shot kills but long reload is a microing hell - it encourages outrageously effective hit-and-runs. Think about using the AC. You tell them to attack ground at a spot and then what? You run them away! So rather than telling a unit to attack and moving onto another part of the battle, the sniper-user would have to be running snipers back and forth (or be using the snipers at less than maximum potential), and the opponent must keep telling his sniper counter units to attack, stop attacking (so they don't run out too far and die), attack again, etc. Sure this is a worst-case scenario and assumes at least one side has nothing better to do than micro. However, this happening even rarely would be a very negative effect on gameplay.

Having stealth just compounds what simwiz said

 

Kryllith-Multiple stealth levels is bad and fighters with anti-stealth would make them over-powered, especially if you wanted other stealth units other than the sniper. And it forces the player to concentrate on a unit line exclusively, without any other alternatives, just to kill 10 measely units. No limit, no stealth, no 1 hit kill

[Darth Windu]

Why not give sniper's stealth, but only when they have stopped moving? This would mean that the sniper would be visible to all units when firing (think Jedi starfighter) and also when moving.

[pbguy1211]

what the hell would be the point of a sniper in RM? In a scenario maybe, but it's pointless in an RM game. To take out one trooper? What's the point???

[Sithmaster_821]

I thought it was an early answer to trooper rushes (i.e. you dont have to build any more buildings once in t3 cause most people have troop center) and a land counter trooper for the mech weak civs

[Kryllith]

Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

Having stealth just compounds what simwiz said

 

Kryllith-Multiple stealth levels is bad and fighters with anti-stealth would make them over-powered, especially if you wanted other stealth units other than the sniper. And it forces the player to concentrate on a unit line exclusively, without any other alternatives, just to kill 10 measely units. No limit, no stealth, no 1 hit kill

What's wrong with multiple stealth levels? They would be good for units that say use mindtricks for stealth (Jedi) vs those that use hiding for stealth. Difference being that one has to rely on natural surroundings while the other is stealthed even if you're looking right at them. Things that might pick up the latter may not pick of the formers, vice versa, or both. Thus the fighter pilot might be able to see the sniper, but not see (or simply ignore) the Jedi.

 

Besides, I'm not suggesting that the fighter be the only unit that can detect snipers, just that it would be an effective counter. Heck, as far as I'd concerned, I'm much rather see scouts get a significant boost to their scanning abilities. People seem to ignore them in the later techs. If you're worried about fighters being over powered by having stealth-detection, then instead of giving them detection just crank up the los of the scouts equal to or beyond that of the snipers, use them to scout them out, then send in fighters/mechs/whatever to deal with them.

 

As for 1 hit kills. I don't mind them depending on the target. A number of units can already 1 hit kill certain mobs (advanced fighters vs. troopers for example). Course, if the target is decently armoured, then we could alter the damage accordingly. Maybe a sniper would 1 hit kill a zero-to-lightly armoured troop, but would require 2 for a medium or heavily armoured troop.

 

Kryllith

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Originally posted by Kryllith

What's wrong with multiple stealth levels?

 

 

 

Too complicated. It forces the player to memorise which units have more stealth than others. And other fairly obvios reasons.

 

 

CorranSec- Lets make an imaginary scenario were a game dev team is making a WW2 FPS. They think; Let's graphically replace the grenades with water baloons! It wouldn't make gameplay different! After all, it's only graphics!

 

Yeah, it wouldn't make gameplay changes, but for a WW2 FPS it just doesn't feel right. And niether does it when in a SW RTS snipers are ineffective against non-vehicle Jedi but are against non-vehicle infantry!