CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I don't think so. How would that improve the game? And if you mean that they shouldn't have campaigns, I disagree. I think that the NR and YV at least should have a campaign, and I'd be quite pleased if the Hutt Cartel and the Smugglers Union did too. Of course, that's only 4 EU campaigns, and there will probably be 6 or 8 canon campaigns, so canon will still be more prominent. But I don't think EU should be downgraded simply because they're EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 not downgraded...just that LA puts cannon more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 But why, oh why should they do that when it should be possible to have them equally important? And what exactly do you mean by 'important'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 They should concentrate on making and balancing the cannon civs because they are the main civs in most SW games which they should be more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I say no to that. We don't want to get a game with some perfectly balanced canon civs but a handful of absolutely terrible EU civs simply because Luke's dad doesn't think EU deserves attention. There will be more canon civs, and more canon campaigns, but they won't be better. All civs and campaigns should be equally great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 You didn't get what i meant! Canon civs should be made first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Ahh... I'm trying to eat lunch here! But every time I sit down, the computer goes 'bing'! Crazy hyper-posting canadians.... 'They should concentrate on making and balancing the cannon civs' 'Canon civs should be made first!' Big difference between those. But the latter doesn't seem to impact that much on gameplay, so I'll go along with that. I'm going to ignore the 'bing' now. I hope you all miss me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Ya mean canadian/south-vietnamese! HA! Gotcha there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Well, you never told me about the South Vietnamese part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I never said to anyone in these forums I was south vietnamese and the only (if there is another which I doubt) SW south vietnamese fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Oh no. We've done it again. Another thread destroyed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Well I want to say a little more all the same. The Wookiees are and always will be much more important than any entirely EU civ. You must remember that Star Wars is a movie above all else. Minor Star Wars fans may not know of EU, and whereas you say the inclusion of an EU civ might inspire them to read EU, I think the inclusion of an EU civ will turn them off actually buying the game. They just aren't recognisable as Star Wars, and this could have a bad effect on sales. People expect Star Wars (which is a movie) and they get Star Wars EU (which is not popular, no matter how you feel about it). If it isn't important enough to be in the movies, it isn't important enough to be in the game of the movies. If you agree you can stop reading my post now because I'm going to begin explaining why I believe EU is NOT Star Wars especially for Corran, which I'll admit is a little off-topic but still relevent to this discussion. Now I accept that you can enjoy EU, by all means go right ahead, but to insist that it exists in the same universe as the movies is wrong. As a good example I will use the concept of the Force. George Lucas created the Force as a combination of many of the world's religions. Yoda tells us it is omni-present, that is it exists in everything. Life creates it, but it still exists within the rocks, the earth, an X-Wing, everywhere. Nothing can exist without the Force, because nothing is without the Force. This is a similar notion to many religious beliefs, and was something that George Lucas especially wanted to emphasise. An energy-field that emenates everything. With a basic understanding of that notion, there are at least two things I know of in EU that go against this, perhaps due to a basic mis-understanding of the Force on the part of the authors. Firstly, in the much revered Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn. The ysalamiri (sp?) featured in these novels exist outside the Force. Not only that, they create a field a few feet around them in which the Force also does not exist. So a person holding a ysalamiri is immune to a Jedi's powers. These creatures go against the very way the Force works. It is mystical energy field that exists everywhere, even through the vaccuum of space. It's a shame Zahn got this wrong, because otherwise the books are fairly entertaining. Secondly, and I'll admit I don't know as much about this one as I haven't read any NJO stuff, but apparently the Yuzzhan Vong (sp again) are also immune to Force powers in a similar way to the ysalamiri (although they don't radiate an equally Force-devoid sphere around them). Again this is due to a basic mis-understanding of the very concept of the Force. Now I'm under the impression that these two works are amongst the best the EU has to offer. But since their representation of the Force is wrong, we can only assume they are NOT Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by CorranSec Luke's dad: But what if we can fit in all the prominent movie civs (ie the ones in GB1) as well as all the important EU ones? There's no need to reduce them to minor civs! OK, I can live with this "all major civs and the most prominent EU civs" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Vostok-That's not a very good example. GL said that the force is the thing that binds everything but he never said that there was no-exceptions to that rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Well maybe my understanding of "everything" and "everywhere" are different to yours, but I'm pretty sure that means no exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Ooh. *rubs hands together and grins evilly* An EU debate. Fans of the movies and the movies alone will get the movies in their entirety. Nobody is proposing a solely-EU GB2. Don't overreact. They don't have to even touch the 5 or so EU civs, although it's too their loss if they do. But most people are not fans of the movies and the movies alone, especially when it's a game. You've played Jedi Outcast, have you not, Vostok? Did you like it? Then let me give you a little food for thought. JO is heavily based on EU. Kyle Katarn works for the New Republic, based on Coruscant. Wow! EU! He meets with Mon Mothma. I know she's in the movies, but in the game she is an important leader of the New Republic. Wow! EU! And guess what? JO is one of the most popular SW games ever made. *listens for public outcry about it being EU.* Wow! Nothing! It also partially contradicts stuff about the force. The force in non-living things? The force in crystals? Hell, this is crazy. But do people care? Sure, they whine. Sure, there's a little "Didn't you think the JO storyline was pretty crazy?" But the same people saying that are also saying "Didn't you think JO was a great game nonetheless?" Oh, and guess what else was in JO? Holocrons and ysalimiri. Damn, isn't JO just horrible? And here's another great example. Ever heard of the game "Shadows of the Empire?" That's right, a game entirely based on an EU book- called Shadows of the Empire, astoundingly. Sure, it's old, and it definitely isn't as popular as JO. But it's a Star Wars game. Oh dear. I'm sure Mr. Zahn is smacking himself in the head, thinking "Oh no! I've contradicted Vostok's sense of what the Force is!" Why is it, then, that the Thrawn trilogy is probably the most popular piece of EU around and is generally considered SW fact? And... well... Lucas himself isn't all that sure what the force is. In the original trilogy: The force is all around us. It's a mystical energy. And so on, and so forth. I'm sure you could give me the exact lines. In Episode I: Midiclorians. Or however you spell it. Maybe the Yuuzhan Vong and ysalimiri just don't have midiclorians. But wait- there's already a good explanation for the ysalimiri, and it's even in the books! Yes, that's right. Over a period of time, the ysalimiri evolved their 'force bubble' to protect themselves from the force-hunting methods of the vronskyrs (sp?). And as for the Vong. Well, the Vong are completely alien. They go against everyone's accepted beliefs of what goes on in SW. And do you know what? That's what they're designed to do. When all the original authors got together, they wanted something completely new. And look- they've got it. I consider most things that have the SW logo on the front and that were published by an acknowledged SW EU author (ie, not just some guy off the street) Star Wars. Even those kiddy "Young Jedi Knights" books. Even those insane "Dark Empire" comics. But I'm not forcing you to read them or like them. You may hate and despise all forms of EU. But I'm asking you to include the 5 most important and recognised EU civilisations in a game. Yes, that's right... it's a game. Don't worry yourself so much. Don't be a fundamentalist zealot. It's a game. (I don't think fundamentalist was the right word there....) Whoa, now I'm tired out. Oh, good! Nobody else to rebut. *collapses* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I'm not saying things that are EU are not entertaining. Yes, I did like playing Jedi Outcast, but I totally thought the storyline was rubbish. In fact I never finished the game. When playing multi-player, I never took a Ysalamiri and only used those Force powers I had seen in the movies (I have strong beliefs). But at least the extra Force powers in JO weren't as bad as the extra Force powers in Jedi Knight II. Dark Jedi got to use "Force shoot-a-red-ball-of-instant-death". What I'm saying is it's a valid form of entertainment, but not true Star Wars. When you say the words "Star Wars" you should be talking about the movies, but when you say "Star Wars Expanded Universe" you mean a different thing. They are not the same, they are very different, and combining them should be done with great caution. Also: I strongly disagree with your statement that most people that like the movies like EU. You have no proof for this save your opinion. Even on this board, many are not fans of EU, and I'd say amongst people who care enough to post on Star Wars forums there would be a higher percentage of EU fans when compared to the population as a whole. The presence of midiclorians only indicates one's ability to use the Force, not the presence of the Force itself. The Force does exist in non-living things (like rocks and X-Wings), although there is no such thing as "concentrated" Force, such as in a crystal. Though theoretically crystals that give people the ability to use the Force could exist, if they somehow raise your midiclorian levels as opposed to just "giving you the Force", which you already have but can't use. Zahn is not contradicting my sense of the Force, he's contradicting George Lucas' sense of the Force. The Thrawn Trilogy is only considered Star Wars fact by those who love EU. I prefer the term "Star Wars Purist" to fundamentalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Ah! Damn it! I wrote up a really long response and then *expletive* LucasForums says "you have too many smilies," and makes me write it again. Okay, here's the basic gist: You never cease to amaze me, Vostok. You'll go down in history as one of the premier SW purists of all time. 'Strong' to most people doesn't mean "I'm-not-going-to-even-if-it-kills-me (or-my-game-character)." Honestly, I'm concerned here. Haven't you heard of the word 'fun'? Can't you just put aside your beliefs and play a damned good game? If EU is a valid form of entertainment, why are you against it being in another valied form of entertainment- a game? And I've also found some more examples of EU. Take a look through the GB1 databank. See what's there? The Jedi Academy. Mara Jade (who also features in the Empire campaign). The New Republic. And so on. Also: I said 'Most people are not fans of the movies and the movies alone, especially when it's a game.' This means that most people are willing to forgo their purism and play a fun, good game which happens to have fun, good EU in it. Still, it's one of the most prominent contradictions in the movies. Yoda and Ben: "The force is in everything. Jedi can tap into it. Et cetera." People in Episode I: "Oh. Well, nope. It's just these little organisms. Nup, nothin' special. Just tiny little bacteria that give you magical powers." ***** (I don't think I can use any more ewoks) JO didn't mention midiclorians. Do you hate it even more? ***** Has Lucas publicly critisised Zahn? No. Have you? Yes. ***** Out of all EU, the Thrawn trilogy is considered the most believably SW. It's just a fact. ***** Yeah, but fundamentalist sounds better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Corran, I do enjoy these little banters. Honestly, I'm concerned here. Haven't you heard of the word 'fun'? Can't you just put aside your beliefs and play a damned good game? Yes I can, and obviously have to to play SWGB and like it enough to post on these boards. But can't you see that another way to have fun (at least for me) is to give yourself a challenge by imposing limits on yourself, and in my case the limits I impose are to play totally using canonical concepts. I've done it with GB too. Only play using canon units, and see if you are strategic enough to beat a computer who is using all the non-canon stuff. You can do it with Empire, Rebels, Trade Fed, Confed, and Republic. Although for Empire and Trade Fed it's pretty hard because you don't have very good anti-air. And yes, I find it to be very fun. Take a look through the GB1 databank. See what's there? The Jedi Academy. Mara Jade (who also features in the Empire campaign). The New Republic. And so on. I never said anywhere that GB1 was entirely canon. Yoda and Ben: "The force is in everything. Jedi can tap into it. Et cetera." People in Episode I: "Oh. Well, nope. It's just these little organisms. Nup, nothin' special. Just tiny little bacteria that give you magical powers." No, you don't understand midiclorians. The Force is in everything, not just midiclorians. However, it is midiclorians that help to make a Jedi powerful. He/she still has the same amount of "Force" in them as a non-Force user, but they have more midiclorians. But midiclorians alone do not give a Jedi their powers. Midiclorians tell them the will of the Force, and they in turn are better able to understand and use the Force. So the "tiny little bacteria" (which they are not) don't give you magical powers, they help you understand the magical energy-field, which you can manipulate (not through the use of midiclorians) to have magical powers. JO didn't mention midiclorians. Do you hate it even more? Well Attack of the Clones didn't mention them either. It just didn't come up. That isn't to say they don't exist. Ever think it just wasn't appropriate for Kyle Katarn to say "Oh, by the way Jan, I have more midiclorians than you." Has Lucas publicly critisised Zahn? No. Have you? Yes. That's because Lucas understands that the EU is not part of Star Wars. In a recent StarWars.com article, it was said that George Lucas considers Boba Fett to be dead. But he didn't criticise whoever made him come alive, did he? Just because he doesn't criticise it doesn't mean he agrees. Out of all EU, the Thrawn trilogy is considered the most believably SW. It's just a fact. Well I believe it's definitely considered the most entertaining. That doesn't mean "most believably SW". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 That particular case of fun never occured to me. And it doesn't seem possible. What about workers? Having new and not previously seen civs appeals far more to my sense of fun. It's always been a hope of mine to be able to have air battles between the New Republic and the Yuuzhan Vong, the Smugglers' Union and the Imperial Remnant, and so on. It's not that I don't like canon, it's just that GB1 kinda put me off them a bit. I'm sure that GB2 will do a fantastic job. And I think it's important to consider the case of 'limits.' I think that unnecessarilyimposing limits on a game is generally a bad thing. The more the merrier, the bigger the better, the more civs the better a game is. I know that other games (eg. the Crafts) have taken a different approach, but seeing as GB has quite a few civs, it's only reasonable to expand. It seems obvious that the wider the range of civs/units/whatever, the wider the range of customers. Let's be inclusive, and allow EU in the game. You said that GB1 was based on the SW movies. I was proving you wrong. I'm just saying that it's highly contradictory. There was no mention in the original trilogy, and it's not just a case of it 'not coming up.' You'd think that Yoda or Ben would vaguely mention what it is that allows Luke to feel the force. "The Force is in everything. The rocks. The trees. The ship. [edit] But only those with midiclorians can truly hear it. [/edit]" That, or something like that, is all you need to link it all together. But it didn't happen. Thus, it's contradictory. I have heard about the Boba Fett thing, and I am aware that the Boba Fett EU is generally quite contradictory. But am I planning to have a Boba Fett campaign in GB2? No. By the same token, I am attempting to avoid anything that goes against the movies. I know you'll probably say something about the Vong- but see my earlier post. If the Thrawn trilogy is entertaining, wouldn't it be great to use it as source material for GB2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 And it doesn't seem possible. What about workers? Well All the civs I mention have the workers in the movies. Granted they named the Trade Fed one incorrectly in GB, and the Empire's worker wasn't explicitely working for the Empire, and the Republic one is the waitress droid from Dex's Diner, but they still all appeared in the movies. And I think it's important to consider the case of 'limits.' I think that unnecessarilyimposing limits on a game is generally a bad thing. The more the merrier, the bigger the better, the more civs the better a game is. Okay, fair enough. I suppose if GB2 does include EU civs, I could always not play them, and if they come up in a RM, I'll just kill them first But I don't agree that the more civs the better the game. That, or something like that, is all you need to link it all together. But it didn't happen. Thus, it's contradictory. Actually it would only be contradictory if they said or implied that midiclorians didn't exist. As it is it might not be exactly consistent, but it isn't wrong. They don't mention Leia's last name or Palpatine's name (which we went through in another thread) but that doesn't mean their names didn't exist. Would you call the names Organa and Palpatine contradictory just because they aren't mentioned? And at least that isn't as not-continuous as some of the EU stuff. I suppose the scene went like this after the cut: Obi-Wan: "That boy was our last hope." Yoda: "No there is another." Obi-Wan: "Oh you mean Echuu Shen Jon? Yeah he could help." Yoda: "No not him! He won't bother to help out for a few years after Vader and the Emperor are dead." Obi-Wan: "Oh... um, you mean Mara Jade then?" Yoda: "No, she's fighting for the Dark Side. She would be easy to turn back, but no." Obi-Wan: "Oh. Corran Horn? He's a bit young, but at just the right age to begin training now that you mention it..." The scene continues for some time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Corran - just accept that an EU civ doesnt belong in a SW game. Before i got onto starwars.com, i didnt even know about EU, and if i saw the Yvang Vong, i wouldnt have even thought that they had anything to do with SW, and were just some crappy sci-fi characters i wasnt interested in (besides, they're based on Star Trek's species 8472). Civs like wookiees and Hutt's are a lot better because all Star Wars fans will recognise them, whereas not many SW fans will recognise the EU rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 There you go, Corran. Play some Star Trek games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I am not in favour of EU civs unless Hutt Cartel or at liest an "Underworld" civ and Mon Cals get priority! However I don't mind using EU to complete and balance out existing civs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Oy! if LA has time then they can make those EU civs if not then screw them! And Vostok kinda criticized The Thrawn Trilogy which I will say is the only SW books to have ever created something canon...Coruscant! Coruscant was created by Tim Zahn and it's canon now! So you can have some respect for those books! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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