Kamino Cloners CIV

[CorranSec]

Windu- I don't want to say to you what I've already said to Vostok, so just hear this.

LucasArts, and specifically Gaber and the GB1 team, don't have any problem with EU. Did you notice the large amounts of EU in GB1?

Plenty of other SW games- plenty of other popular and great SW games- recognise EU. GB2 would be good to follow their lead.

Be accepting and inclusive. The more the merrier.

Sure, most players won't recognise the EU. But did you recognise the EU in GB1? I doubt it. Do you hate GB1?

By playing, fans will learn about the EU. Is it such a terrible thing not to know everything before you start playing?

 

Vostok- I see what you mean about some things which may be taken as contradictions, but by the same token you've pointed out yourself how GB1 contains contractions. Do you hate the Rebel and Republic campaigns because of Echuu?

And please. You must admit that, all questions of whether it's true or not aside, Star Wars EU is a lot better than any Star Trek "EU" (ie books etc).

[Darth Windu]

Corran - the question isnt wether the fans will enjoy playing EU, or wether they will be informed by it. The question you must ask is "WILL THEY WANT TO PLAY IT?". I would say no.

 

Also, your argument is fundamentally flawed, there are no pure EU civs in GB1.

 

How do you know that Gaber and his team dont have a problem with EU? Maybe the hate it, but had to use it to complete some of the civs, for example the Wookies (you do of course realise they were only put in coz of chewie). Hence the evidence would seem to suggest they are only willing to include things in GB and possibly GB2 that have a basis in the Star Wars movies, and would hence rule out any pure-EU civs such as the NR, IR, Vyug Nong etc etc.

[CorranSec]

Why do you think fans won't want to play EU civs? Most normal players (ie people who aren't like Vostok) would be willing to play something that's well-made and fun. Did people want to play Jedi Outcast? Yes. Was it purely-EU? Yes. Oh dear.... but people still played it!

 

So GB1 didn't have EU civs. Perhaps the devs ran out of time, couldn't be bothered, didn't know how.... there are plenty of reasons apart from hating EU.

It's clear that Gaber and his team accept EU as fact in their games. What's in the databank? EU. Who is in the pre-mission and post-mission things (I'm not sure what to call them) for the Imperial campaign? Mara Jade- EU. Where do the Wookiees live? Kashyyyk (sp?)- EU. And that's not just 'completing the civ.' That's one of the most important things about the civ, and is the location of the Wookiee campaign.

Mmm-hmm. The devs must really hate EU.

 

Basically, just look at it this way. The EU civs will be fun, new civs to play. Is there something wrong with things that are fun and new?

This game is, after all, for entertainment. These civs increase the entertainment.

[Darth Windu]

Why do you think fans will want to play EU civs?

 

Just face the fact that EU is no where near as popular as the movies, and by adding EU civs will confuse and possibly alienate some of the target audience.

 

Besides, EU is written by writer's who seem to have little more than a primary school education and still breast feed. EU also contradicts the movies quite a bit with things like the Vyung Vang not being part of the force, even though everything is part of the force, and Boba Fett coming back and attacking Solo, EVEN THOUGH HE'S DEAD!!!!!!

 

EU isnt, and never will be, as popular as the movies. From any perspective (and i can assure you to LA marketing is the most important) EU just isnt good enough. Movie-based civs will draw a much larger crowd, and gamers will also have a lot more fun just jumping in rather than having to learn about something they probably arent even interested in.

[Darth Windu]

Why do you think fans will want to play EU civs?

 

Just face the fact that EU is no where near as popular as the movies, and by adding EU civs will confuse and possibly alienate some of the target audience.

 

Besides, EU is written by writer's who seem to have little more than a primary school education and still breast feed. EU also contradicts the movies quite a bit with things like the Vyung Vang not being part of the force, even though everything is part of the force, and Boba Fett coming back and attacking Solo, EVEN THOUGH HE'S DEAD!!!!!!

 

EU isnt, and never will be, as popular as the movies. From any perspective (and i can assure you to LA marketing is the most important) EU just isnt good enough. Movie-based civs will draw a much larger crowd, and gamers will also have a lot more fun just jumping in rather than having to learn about something they probably arent even interested in.

[CorranSec]

Why do you think fans will want to play EU civs?

 

Because they'll be fun and entertaining.

 

Just face the fact that EU is no where near as popular as the movies, and by adding EU civs will confuse and possibly alienate some of the target audience.

 

I'm sorry, but I really can't see that happening. There will be a full rundown on the background of the EU civs and so on, available for anyone who wants to see it. They'll only be alienated if they want to be alienated.

 

Besides, EU is written by writer's who seem to have little more than a primary school education and still breast feed. EU also contradicts the movies quite a bit with things like the Vyung Vang not being part of the force, even though everything is part of the force, and Boba Fett coming back and attacking Solo, EVEN THOUGH HE'S DEAD!!!!!!

 

I'd say that all of the EU authors are a lot older, a lot more intelligent and a lot more educated than the majority of us here. You're basically using the same arguments as Vostok, and I already showed their flaws.

 

EU isnt, and never will be, as popular as the movies. From any perspective (and i can assure you to LA marketing is the most important) EU just isnt good enough.

 

Why, then, is JO one of the most popular SW games?

 

Movie-based civs will draw a much larger crowd, and gamers will also have a lot more fun just jumping in rather than having to learn about something they probably arent even interested in.

 

Look at a popular RTS- AoM. A damned lot of gamers seem to have learnt about things that they get interested in after playing a game with them. And the movie civs will still be there, and people can just 'jump in!'

[Darth Windu]

AoM has a basis in real life, EU doesnt.

 

EU is also neither fun nor entertaining, it is a disease that has infected Star Wars.

 

JO is a game, we are talking about EU vs Movies. Do you think that a game similar to JO but based on, for example, Mace Windu would be more popular, i sure do.

[Sin]

I dont konw what possessed me to read the last page of this thread, where you guys have been arguing semantics about what people want in their star wars game. For one, I had no idea of the races or ideas you were mentioning from the EU, which I just looked up on google, means Expanded Universe...

I think that qualifies me as an unbiased person who would reasonably be considered the type of market that Lucas Arts would want to pick up. They know that they have all you. They could throw star wars garbage out there and everybody that regularly posts on this forum would pick it up with a smile. But to make sales, they need to pick people like me up. Take away from other strong RTS games out there, like starcraft/war3 fans.

 

I picked up GB recently for a change of pace from starcraft/war3 rts to one I haven't played before. I haven't even played age of empire, so this game is brand spankin new to me, and its good. It's really good.

 

Why? One, even though the engine is outdated by a couple of years, it's a damn good engine for an rts, like I said, it's new to me. But everybody complains it's too similar to Age of Empires.

 

Two, I liked the movies, well maybe not the new ones, but the ones from the 70's and 80's rocked. And why did people like the movies? Because they had a unique feel and style to them. GB follows that feeling rather well, and I guess adds stuff from the EU, which you guys have pointed, but I really don't care. It still maintained that Star wars feel, I guess, so it fit right on. I didn't really think twice about it.

 

As for star wars in general:

 

If you ask any girl who saw star wars, they would say they loved the movie because of harrison ford is a hottie. If you ask any guy why they liked those movies, they'd say carrie fisher chained up at the beginning of Return of the Jedi was awesome. People liked those movies because of the fun (but bad) acting and the good chemistry between the actors. The actors made those films, not Lucas's grand star wars universe. The storyline was okay, everybody must have been shocked when you found out Vadar was Luke's father. That's really about it. All the tech, the aliens, the force, all the stuff you guys are arguing about come in dead last on why those movies were good and got a large following for so long. The new movies prove that. Awful acting, no chemistry between the actors, there is no one to relate to as you are watching the new films. But there were plenty of clues to what the force is, more beautiful looking tech, robots, history of the star wars universe before the original movie...background story all the stuff you guys want in your star wars games. But no substance to drive the films. No one cared.

 

I can guarentee that the average person does not give a damn about the EU. But doesn't bother him when he sees a trandoshan (sp?) in the wookie campaigns. you know? It still has that star wars feel. But if you get too funky and add civs that have nothing to do with recognizable SW, such as the Vong? From what I understand they pop out of no where, and are apparently immune to the force? What's that about? I really don't want to read a novel to understand what the hell is going on. Nor will a game make the average rts gamer a EU fan. That won't happen.

 

 

So taking into account what a non-hardcore star wars fan is looking for in a star wars game when he's checking out the back cover in the store with all the above evidence provided above: (Remember, LA is making an RTS before they are making a star wars game. We want more than 300 players on the zone to challenge. The star wars theme should be added to make the RTS seem even more appealing)

 

 

1) Good Engine. Game play for an RTS comes above all else. Forget civs, forget tech, or storyline. Game play comes first. That means tons of new features and a balanced game. Features are more important. If it doens't have new features, I'm sure other companies will come out with RTS that do.

 

2) I want to feel like I am controlling armies and not going throught the motions of a book's story line. I want to feel like I'm making a difference in the campaigns. I've seen the movies, I know more about the star wars universe than I'll ever want to know. Let's not flood it with back story line to understand something I do not care about.

 

3) Civs. Okay, now you need to decide on the civs, how many, who, all that jazz. They make the game too. Too much EU, and it could confuse the non-experienced fans, too much of the same story lines can be boring, so there has to be a llittle bit of both. Characters from the movies should be importnat with EU Stuff backing it up. A pure EU civ may be too much at first, but I guess if the game is good, you'll learn about it. If they ahve a good background, then that's cool. Maybe one or two of those would be good. Just enough to ween a player into something new.

 

4) challenge, this game has to have more than 300 poeple on the zone to make it worth the price. They have to do something about that. I"m going to find out how many people play on the zone on average before I even consider buying a swgb2. If that means less EU in the story, that's fine with me. If that means more EU in the story, that's cool too. I"m sure they do focus groups. However, it really is the game engine and features that will sell it as an RTS to a wider market, not all the star wars stuff.

 

Phew, I said a lot, I hope that sheds some insight into your arguements.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu-No. Obi-Wan was based on Obi1 and was it that popular?No. Jedi Power battles was based on canon characters, was it popular? No.

 

If JO is popular it's because of Dark Force 2. If Dark Force 2 was not popular at all, JO would suck. If SWGB 1 is popular, SWGB2 will be unless it will not be well-made.

[CorranSec]

Windu:

"AoM has a basis in real life, EU doesnt."

So? Most people enjoy fiction more than fact.

 

"EU is also neither fun nor entertaining, it is a disease that has infected Star Wars."

That's your personal opinion, and you have no idea whether they'll be fun or entertaining in the game. But you'll probably make yourself hate them.

 

"JO is a game, we are talking about EU vs Movies. Do you think that a game similar to JO but based on, for example, Mace Windu would be more popular, i sure do."

It depends on whether it's a good game, just as Luke's dad said.

 

Sin:

Okay, so you like GB. Well, you should like GB2 even better.

IMHO, lots of EU has the 'Star Wars feel,' and is just plain old good reading. If you want to know more, just pick up a book and read it.

All of the stuff you said about 'chemistry' etc. doesn't really apply, seeing as it's a game, but I get your points about the movies.

 

1) It is going to have a good engine. Hopefully. Well, we all want one.

 

2) Everything needs some kind of storyline. In fact, story line is considered by reviewers a major point of campaigns in all RTS games. However, storyline shouldn't detract from actual gameplay. You won't be going through the motions of a book- you'll be playing a damned good game.

 

2) There won't be too much EU. There will be more canon than EU. I appreciate your accepting outlook, which is quite a relief from some other members of this forum. *glares at Windu*

 

4) The Star Wars stuff does help it sell, but hopefully a new engine and just plain old good gameplay will get plenty of players on whatever replaces the Zone.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well Corran you haven't really pointed out the flaws in my argument to my satsifaction yet.

 

Also, JO was NOT a purely EU game. It had lightsabers, stormtroopers, AT-STs, quite a few things that are in the movies. The Vong have none of this. Therefore they are a PURE-EU civ, whereas JO, while heavily based in EU, is not a pure-EU game.

 

Sin, very refreshing to read your post. I agree it is important to maintain the Star Wars "feel", which I call Star-Warsy-ness. And I strongly believe the EU does NOT do this. ESPECIALLY NJO stuff.

 

Corran, what is your argument for why EU does have Star-Warsy-ness? You've merely tried to shoot down my arguments for why it doesn't, rather than provide evidence of your own.

 

And to whoever said to give respect to Zahn for Coruscant, all he really did was provide a name. George Lucas had always had an idea of a world-wide city. In fact, the Coruscant in the books is very different to that in the movies. In the books, they need to use mirrors in orbit to get enough sunlight to the planet. But in the movies, there is a lot of nice, natural sunlight. At least, it all comes from one source, which any normal person would presume is the sun (you see it setting and so on). You could argue that the Empire's occupation clouded the atmosphere too much, but in a period of 25 years I find that hard to swallow, especially since the city has existed for thousands of years in it's current state. So thanks for the name "Coruscant", Tim, I'm sure George couldn't have done it without you.

[CorranSec]

I've pointed out the flaws to my satisfaction, and I thought we had this over with. But I'll keep going, seeing as you asked so nicely.

 

JO was about as EU as you can get. It had the New Republic (pure-EU civ) based on Coruscant, the Jedi Academy, the Imperial Remnant (pure-EU civ), cortosis and so on. Lots of EU has lightsabers, stormtroopers, AT-STs and quite a few things that are in the movies. The NJO certainly has lightsabers, and plenty of movie characters, locations and so on.

 

EU has plenty of Star-Warsy-Ness. It's got plenty of movie characters, locations and so on. It's basically a continuation of the story. What do you want me to show? The "feel?" Well, I can't exactly communicate that through a computer screen, and it's not like comparing what a movie looks like.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, we need to sort out some definitions here, and who better to do it than me:

 

PURE-EU (PEU): Anything that exists solely within the EU, is not seen or referenced in the movies, and originated entirely from a concept that was not created by George Lucas. Examples include the Yuuzhan Vong, Grand Admiral Thrawn and Darktroopers.

 

EXTRAPOLATION-EU (EEU): Concepts developed in EU but based from a concept seen or referenced in the movies, or a concept created by George Lucas. Examples include the Imperial Remnant, Aurra Sing's history and exactly what happened at the Battle of Tanaab.

 

CANON: The exact opposite of Pure-EU. Strictly, anything seen explicitely in the Star Wars movies.

 

So no, IR and NR are not PEU. They are based on the Empire and the Rebellion, which were seen in the movies. The Vong are not based on anything seen in the movies, so are PEU. The NJO as a whole is EEU, but Vong as a concept are PEU.

 

Now about Star-Warsy-Ness. The most important thing is to keep with the themes of the movies. I could write a story called "Coruscantian Pie" about four Jedi hopefuls who set out to get laid before they recieve the title of Jedi Knight. It uses characters and locations from the movies, but would you call it Star-Warsy? I certainly would not. My point is there is more to the movies than just what you see on the screen. That is Star-Warsy-ness.

[CorranSec]

And what precisely do you define as the 'themes' of the movies, Vostok? Please note that I have a "Star Wars: The Magic of Myth" book here beside me, so you'll be in for it if you make any mistakes.

 

Coruscantian Pie... heh. The NJO isn't quite like that.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well the themes of Star Wars are numerous. Amongst the important ones are the concepts of family and friendship, the ideas of fate and destiny, and plain old good vs evil. Now much of EU has similar themes, but what EU often doesn't get right, and this is what I've come to understand happens with the NJO, is that Star Wars isn't just another sci-fi. It is really a political epic that just happens to be set in space. So while it might have robots, clones and aliens, the fact that they ARE robots, clones and aliens is not important. This is not true of EU. EU tends to focus on the fine line between robots and non-robots, the moral complexity of cloning, and the weird and bizarre guises and abilities that aliens possess. The movies are not concerned with the fact that you can't hear in space, nor with the fact that you wouldn't be able to walk around in a cave on an asteroid with nothing but a breathing mask (even if that cave is the insides of a monster), nor with the fact most planets have more than one type of terrain. EU authors always feel a need to explain the science behind Star Wars, which is what most science fiction does, but that is not what is important.

[CorranSec]

Family, friendship, fate, destiny, good v. evil- In practically every EU book/series, including the NJO.

It isn't a political 'epic.' Sure, the war is based on politics, but then again, what isn't? It is a tale of high adventure, drawing heavily on two particular things: myths and westerns. But the myths and westerns aren't exactly as important for the 'star warsy-ness,' and they don't really need to be in the EU. After all, it'd just end up being the same story over and over again.

The original trilogy in particular is far from politics. Sure, Leia is an Imperial senator. But is there a single scene of the Imperial Senate? No. To all but the most hardcore fan, SW is an adventure movie, an action movie, a sci-fi movie. It's a story of princesses, laser swords, laser guns and epic battles. Politics are the undertones and the reasons, but that's not what it's all about.

Of course, there are far more political references in Episodes I and II. Sure, it's all about Palpatine gaining power in the Senate. But it's also about Darth Sidious gaining tyrannical power over all and imposing his evil will.

 

About the whole 'explanations' thing- can you really blame these people for filling in the blanks? Sure, they give names and designations to blasters. Sure, they say that the Incom T-65 X-Wing has four laser cannons with flash supressors. But that's just descriptions, which in the movies can be shown by, well, showing us the thing.

[Sin]

From my point of view, whatever is "star warsy" has to look the part. A lot of what the stuff looks like is more important than who came up with what, whether it was lucas or zahn (sp?)

 

It has to be recognizable, whether it was archeitcture or design that makes a the unit seem to fit the part. A good example is hte Empire's AT-PT It looks like an empire craft, but I'm sure it wasnt in the movies. I think Canon Star Wars, as you guys put it is very visual based. The characters are super recognizable. The ships and mechs are very recognizable and unique. I don't think the AT-PT hadn't appeared in any films, but it looks right.

 

Even things that weren't in the films like the TF bounty hunter fit the star wars universe look, very well. I actually did my homework for this post and found it was a some girl named mawhi linn. (I'm a huge TF fan in this game)

 

What I'm saying is that in GB there was just enough of the EU to make the game seem fresh. And the AT-AT was there to remind you it was SW. That balance needs to continue in any next generation SW RTS.

 

But then again I could be wrong, but I'm not trying to disappoint anybody here, but this game isn't very popular at all. Someone pointed out that becasue I liked GB, I'd like GB2, taht may not be true. People are very fickle, and I'm posting here cause I like the game, and I check on strategies, but I may be gone tomorrow. You guys that are true fans will be here.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well you sort of missed my point Corran. The important part wasn't "political epic" it was "just happens to be set in space".

 

You know I've said all that stuff about Westerns and Adventures and Romances before, so I didn't bother to repeat it.

 

But I'm glad Sin is here. Sin, you say it best when you say it "has to be recognisable". That is exactly it. That's why I don't have a problem with the NR and IR, because they are at least recognisable as Star Wars. Nor the Wookiees, because they are very recognisable. The Vong, the Chiss, the Hapans, etc are not recognisable.

[CorranSec]

They may not be recognisable. But that's the whole point of them. They add a whole dimension to the SW universe- an entirely new kind of enemy, and a lot of fun to any player used to the tactics of the "normal SW" civs.

That's the main point. It's a game above all else, and the Vong are probably the most unique civ out there. So we should include them for gameplay's sake, if nothing else.

[Admiral Vostok]

Now see that is what I don't like. Throwing something different into the mix to make it interesting. Well I found Star Wars interesting enough without the Vong, and so do millions of other people. It doesn't need something "new" especially when, according to Windu, it's just a rip-off of Star Trek in the first place.

[CorranSec]

Well, you haven't read any NJO, so you don't know whether you find them interesting or not.

 

But anyway- you may have found Star Wars interesting enough without the Vong, but have you found Galactic Battlegrounds interesting enough?

That is the point. I'm not talking about EU- I'm talking about the fact that they will be extremely interesting in the game. And I severely doubt that they're a rip-off of Star Trek.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well, yes to be honest I have found GB interesting enough. The bits I don't like about GB stem from not being in the movies (pummels, cannons), which I don't see the inclusion of Vong making any better! If I didn't like it I wouldn't bother to waste my time by coming here, would I!

[Crazy_dog no.3]

But why not just have the Rebels upgrade?!

It makes sense doesn't it:

Rebels upgrade from "small risistance group", to their Yavin state, to thier "in-betweeny"state, thier Hoth/Endor state then thier NR state.

I read that stuff u posted here and other threads, CorranSec, with NR bieng more established and all that. But they still rely on air, space superiority and infantry. It's not like they have [good] artillery or ground vehicles.

[lukeiamyourdad]

OYYYYYY!

 

STOP THIS DAMN EU VS MOVIES WAR. IT'S POINTLESS AND REDICULOUS! WE WILL NEVER AGREE ABOUT THIS!

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I think it should at least be confined to one thread. At the moment Corran and I seem to have spilled our War onto other Threads, and I apologise. Let's keep it on this thread since no one cares about a Kamino civ anyway.