Kamino Cloners CIV

[CorranSec]

Vostok:

I don't doubt your knowledge of culture, but I feel that your argument is quite flawed.

To begin with, the LoTR movie/book situation is quite different to that of SW canon/EU. To put it simply, the EU is an expansion of the story of the movies, while the LoTR movie is the book story altered for film. Thus, the LoTR game situation is quite different to what we're discussing here. But I'll rebut you nonetheless.

The primary problem with the FotR game is bad gameplay. The reviewers are generally not hardcore LoTR fans (although they might like it), and their job is to find out whether a game is good, not whether it's true to the movies/books/whatever.

But some reviewers have nonetheless looked at something else the FOTR game is designed to do: provide the books in a playable form. The major criticism is not "This game is not a game based on the movies," but instead "This game was designed to be based on the books, but it simply doesn't do them justice." So not only is the FOTR game bad in terms of gameplay, it's terrible in terms of realism.

 

I accept that your (admittedly long-winded) point does work in some instances, but it's simply not applicable to the game I'm proposing. The amount of PEU by no means amounts to a third of the actual content. The amount of EU civs is around (probably less than) half, and by my judgement there are two PEU civs and three EEU civs. Thus, your point is irrelevant.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay well maybe the reviewers didn't care about the fact it wasn't based on the movies, but several of my friends who are not huge LOTR fans (and who I feel adequately represent the majority of the gaming community) thought that it was incredibly dumb to release a game not based on the movies when the movies are the most popular form of visualising the books.

 

Anyway, if anything the LOTR example counts extra for Star Wars, because not only are the movies the popular medium, they are also the original medium, whereas the LOTR books are the original medium in the other case. To differ from the visual style of the movies as greatly as the Vong do is not a good idea, because non-EU-fans will reject the game. The NR and IR don't differ from the visuals of the movie - but therein lies the problem. They aren't visually that different from the Rebels and Empire, so why bother to include them? (Please don't copy-and-paste your argument for why they are different onto this thread, the fact remains they are similar ENOUGH. Most people think this way and majority rules).

 

Windu, how am I turning to the dark side? Please, bring me back, there is still good in me yet.

[CorranSec]

incredibly dumb to release a game not based on the movies when the movies are the most popular form of visualising the books

I'm trying to include at least 8 movie-based civs (a majority). So the game is, for the most part, based on the movies.

 

To differ from the visual style of the movies as greatly as the Vong do is not a good idea, because non-EU-fans will reject the game.

Are you saying that you would reject a game with all the movie civs you want in it simply because it has one thing you don't want? No. People who hate EU may not like it, but people who like SW will like it, and people who like games will like it.

 

The NR and IR are visually different from the Rebels and Empire. It's a simple fact. Most people who don't think this way are either

a) unaware of the truth

b) in denial of the truth

c) wrong,

and even if everyone on this forum disagreed with me, that is by no means a majority of all the gamers in the world.

[Admiral Vostok]

So you're saying the portrayal of the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic in Jedi Outcast was wrong? Because they looked exactly the same as the Empire and the Rebellion to me. Not just Jedi Outcast, but every game, book cover and comic book I've seen portrays them similarly. The are not identical. But they are similar enough.

[swphreak]

I believe the IR really began to be different from the Emp during the Thrawn Duology (Hand, Vision). It really showed how they were falling apart. Using preybirds, less resources, ect.

 

The rebs and NR are way diff. Jedi, Air (change to E-Wing and K-wing), I think new tanks. New outfit for troops. if you want the X-Wings, play the Rebels. i think E-Wings are better. They could have the XJ-Wings in place of the A-Wing, but if they dont add the Vong, then just forget abou he XJ cuz that was when they had them.

 

. . . I do believe this has gone waaay off topic. . .

[Darth Windu]

Really? I thought in Jedi Outcast you played as a Rebel member against the Empire.

 

Getting back to the point, THERE SHOULD BE NO PURE-EU CIVS IN SWGB2! I dont mind EU-heavy civs that are based on the movies (ie Wookiee's) but i object to any pure-EU civs (such as the Ying Yang, NR and IR)

 

One thing i would like to point out as well, has anyone actually figured out yet that the term 'Imperial Remnant' means they are the Imperials????????? (ie no need for 2nd civ)

[Darth Grant]

I admit it would be pretty cool to have a kamino civ but they would copy the republic with clone troopers.

 

[lukeiamyourdad]

Darth Grant-The topic is over now.

 

Windu-You played as a member of the New Republic in JO.

 

Although there are some differences, the feeling of playing with the rebs and the imps might still be the same with the NR and IR. That's the problem. You still have the feeling you're playing two other civs.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu - easy mistake to make with Jedi Outcast which just proves my point. I'm eager to hear whether Corran considers JO "wrong" because of this.

 

Also, you're messing up my clarifications of Extrapolation EU (EEU) and Pure EU (PEU). The Vong are PEU (no grounding whatsoever in the movies) whereas the IR and NR and EEU (extrapolations from movie civs).

 

Luke's Dad - exactly. It's the same feeling, so what is the point?

[CorranSec]

Vostok:

You didn't actually see that much of the New Republic. What you did see was Coruscant- a big, powerful city-world, a sharp contrast to the small bases of the Rebels.

As for the Imp Remnant: There were stormtroopers, sure, but there were also some very different units and locations.

 

I'm not here to state what I think of the way they portrayed the NR and IR in JO. I'm here to state that the NR and IR are different to the Rebels and Imps, and would be good civs in GB2.

 

Windu:

Well, you obviously ignored all of the cutscenes and basic storyline. Having no idea how the story goes is by no means an easily made mistake.

As Vostok said, the NR and IR are EEU. Why do you object to PEU, when I've showed how they would make the game better?

Sure. And the Empire is the same as the Republic because they both have the word "Galactic."

 

Luke's dad: How can you say that? You've never played as the NR and IR, and seeing as their tactics, units and strengths will be different to the Rebels and Imps, the feeling will be quite different.

[Darth Windu]

Corran - you have only showed how PEU would make GB2 a worse game. Also, why do you think Star Wars games and books have any following at all? BECAUSE OF THE MOVIES. They are the core, the heart of Star Wars. If it isnt done by Lucas, im not interested.

 

Also, i have a problem with the NR and IR because they have no basis in the movies. There is no indication whatsoever what the Empire will fall, or that the Rebels will take over. Plus the NR is just another form of the Rebels, and the IR is still the Empire, no difference.

 

Besides corran, if i can make that mistake about JO, how many others wouldve done the same? Just accept that the vast majority know the movies, but only a very small minority know EU. Remember,

 

Marketing > Gameplay > Realism

[lukeiamyourdad]

Corran-The rebs and NR will be similar once people hear that they actually are almost the same. It will be like SWGB1. No unique feeling between the civs.

 

Windu-.....Really....No indication....like the Emperor is dead...Vader is dead...the Empire lost their most important battle ever....what other indication do you need?

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu:

EEU stands for Extrapolated Expanded Universe. This means they have taken a idea or image from the Movies and built on it. This is what IR and NR are. They have taken the Empire, and extrapolated to say they become the Imperial Remnant. They have taken the Rebellion, and extrapolated to become the New Republic. The Wookiee civ is also EEU, they have taken Chewbacca and scenes from the Star Wars Holiday Special, and extrapolated to build an entire civ.

 

PEU stands for Pure Expanded Universe, which means they have no grounding in the Movies at all. Vong, Chiss, Noghri, Hapans are all PEU.

 

Corran: The still had HEAPS of Stormtroopers (not a shortage as you are claiming IR to have), TIE Fighters, Imperial Officers, AT-STs, and several other things. They new things they have were created entirely for the game (shadowtroopers, reborn), not taken from other sources like comics. So they look pretty much like theEmpire to me. And there was one level where the New Republic came in to back you up, and the troopers were dressed exactly like Rebel Troopers, and there were X-Wings flying overhead.

 

LucasArts made the game, and that's how LucasArts sees them, so since they didn't make them different I doubt they'd think they were different enough to warrant their own civs.

[swphreak]

All this PEU and EEU and whatever. I jus called the books EU cuz its not the movies.

 

Also, lukeiamyourdad has a pretty good point there. It looks like it would fall.

[CorranSec]

Windu:

I have showed how PEU would be good. You have thrown around vague and oft-irrelevant arguments.

The NR and IR have a basis in the movies. There is plenty of indication that the Empire will fall and that the Rebels will take over. This is proven in the EU. The NR is the next generation of the Rebels and the IR is the next generation of the Empire, with differences in units, tactics and attitudes.

Although it's a hard struggle, I'll refrain from insulting you about making such a mistake about JO.

I accept that the vast majority know the movies. I do not accept that the inclusion of several EEU civs and one or two PEU civs will turn the game into an absolute wreck.

 

Luke's dad:

People should never hear that the Rebels and NR are exactly the same (unless you incorrectly tell them that). They're not. The game will show this. There will be a unique feel between the civs. After all, there are unique unit sets, unit tactics, unique abilities... all the civs will greatly differ from each other.

 

Vostok:

They actually don't have HEAPS of stormtroopers. They have nowhere near the amount that the Empire had, and only use them as elite shock troops. They don't use TIE fighters any more, instead resorting to pirate-made Preybirds (among many others). They have Imperial Remnant officers. They may have AT-STs, but the stats and tactics are different.

Okay, so what you saw in JO was rather similar to the Empire. JO is one game, one source of EU, among many. What I've seen in the EU is not nearly as similar to the Empire.

That may not be how LucasArts sees them. That's just how LucasArts chose to make the game. And I'm sure you'll say something like "Oh, that proves they'd rather see the Empire than the Remnant." Well, why not see both?

[Admiral Vostok]

I think you meant Vostok instead of Windu, so...

 

They actually don't have HEAPS of stormtroopers. They have nowhere near the amount that the Empire had, and only use them as elite shock troops. They don't use TIE fighters any more, instead resorting to pirate-made Preybirds (among many others). They have Imperial Remnant officers. They may have AT-STs, but the stats and tactics are different.

Not according to JO which was what I was referring to. But my point stands. LucasArts had the opportunity to stick to the EU and make the Imperial forces have not many Stormtroopers, no TIE Fighters and different AT-STs. Instead they decided to make the Remnant look exactly like the Empire. If they don't wish to use EU where it should be used, why would they use it elsewhere? They obviously consider the IR and the GE to be similar enough to not appear different at all in JO, so why would they think they deserve a civ separate from each other? I just can't see it happening, thank the Force.

[CorranSec]

I am terribly sorry, Vostok. I never meant to call you Windu. I know you are probably deeply offended. Once again, I am sorry.

 

I have no idea why LA chose to make them the same. But the point stands that LA can accept EU- look at the New Republic in the cutscenes, the existence of cortosis, the Jedi Academy, and so on.

Why wouldn't they deserve a civ separate from each other when it can be done? I just don't understand why you wouldn't want both the IR and the Empire.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I always thought IR was pretty much the same as GE and that the NR was pretty much the same as RA, until you told me otherwise. It would appear that LucasArts thinks the same, at least in terms of military units. So I can't see why if LucasArts considers them the same, they would see the need to make them different.

 

And the fact is I agree with Sith that too many civs doesn't make a good game. I think SWGB1 got it just right.

[CorranSec]

LucasArts chose to make them similar for reasons unkown, but the reasons don't have to be "they don't like EU." You didn't know because you clearly haven't read any EU.

It would appear that the creators of the NR and IR (primarily Tim Zahn) think that they are different. So I can't see why if Tim Zahn considers them different and important, LA would see the need to make them the same (or not include them).

 

GB didn't really get it "just right." If GB got it "just right," why aren't reviewers and gamers everywhere praising its perfect number of civs?

More civs would only be bad if they were repetitive or unbalanced. The ones I'm proposing are neither, and they could be made unrepetitive and balanced even if they weren't originally. Why must you be pessimistic?

[Admiral Vostok]

Well LucasArts are the people that will be making SWGB2, not Tim Zahn, so I don't see what that has got to do with anything. And their reasons for making them look the same aren't "unknown", it is because people would rather play a Star Wars game with recognisable things from the movies that play a Star Wars game with unrecognisable things not from the movies. I know I'd rather be chopping up Stormtroopers with my lightsaber than whatever the Remnant uses in place of Stormtroopers.

 

If GB got it "just right," why aren't reviewers and gamers everywhere praising its perfect number of civs?

Which game have they done that for?

[CorranSec]

If LucasArts does make an Imperial Remnant and New Republic, it only makes sense to take input from the creator- or at least base them on the books!

It is unknown why the folks at LA kept stormies and TIEs but allowed cortosis, the Jedi Academy and the New Republic. If they could have those, they could have others. And there still could be some stormies.

 

I'm not sure which games they have done that for, but the fact is that GB wasn't praised for much at all, and especially not the civs. What evidence do you have that eight AoE-ish generic civs is the best way to go, and that LA can't manage what I'm suggesting?

[Admiral Vostok]

Woah, woah, woah. I never said I wanted AoE-ish generic civs. I want the eight existing civs to be fleshed out and given unique units sets and portrayed with different fighting styles and abilities. If we have eight unique civs that will be more than any RTS I know of. The highest number of unique civs I'm aware of is four in WC3. So I think 8 is pretty darn good. I don't think I've ever heard of a reviewer saying the game got number of civs just right, so who's to say GB1 didn't? Note I'm saying they got the number right, not the uniqueness. Let's look at the Age series. They had like 17 civs after AoC expanded AoK, and now they're down to 9 for AoM. I think 8 really is the perfect number.

[CorranSec]

Well, if you agree that GB1 didn't do the civs right, how can you say that 8 is the perfect number? Where is your proof, your examples?

 

Why should we merely retread already-tilled ground when we can and should expand? Sure, the expanded civs will be different, but people will look at it and say "Oh. Oh, wow. The newness..... the newness is astounding. They're the exact same civs!"

[Admiral Vostok]

Where is your proof that 8 isn't enough civs?

 

Did people complain when WarCraft 2 had the same civs? Did people complain when Red Alert 2 had the same civs? Did people complain when Tiberian Sun had the same civs? All these franchises are fairly successful, so that is my proof that we don't need more civs.

The Age series went from having 18 civs and 5 art sets, some of which people rarely played, to 9 civs and 3 art sets, which are all played pretty equally. The Age games have been heralded as some of the best RTS games made. That is my proof that 8 is closer to the right amount of civs for an RTS.

 

People will only really be expecting new gameplay and more variety and uniqueness amongst the existing civs, not the addition of new civs.

[CorranSec]

Where is your proof that 8 is enough civs? You have to prove something before I can disprove it.

 

Did people complain when WarCraft 2 had the same civs? Yes, and WC3 is considered much more of an improvement over 2 than 2 was over 1- because it has double the number of civs.

 

Did people complain when Red Alert 2 had the same civs? I daresay so. I haven't played Red Alert 2, but everything made by Westwood has tended to generate annoyance with the repetition.

 

The Age series went from having 18 generic civs and 5 art sets, some of which people rarely played, to 9 unique civs and 3 art sets, which are all played pretty equally. Age of Mythology is obviously the best and most successful of the Age games, and even that has 9 civs.

 

In the minds of many, new gameplay and new fun is generally linked to new units, buildings, and civs. Let me give you an example- Broken Sword III: The Sleeping Dragon. The first two Broken Sword games have been quite popular, and III's has made the switch to 3D instead of 2D graphics. Now, if the gameplay remained identical with merely a graphics change, many old followers would leave in disgust, while newcomers might also know of the first 2 and also ignore it. However, TSD has kept the spirit of the first two but added cotemporary gameplay and the contemporary interface (direct quote from the MD of the company making the game). Of course, it also has heaps of new features, new puzzles, new locations, a new storyline, and new battles.