Official SWGB 2 GB.com Thread

[CorranSec]

Fergie-

Are your general ideas relating to the model I proposed?

I seriously dislike practically every facet of your idea. What's wrong with mine?

The special skills work a lot better than your 'points.' As I said before- with the points, civs will get completely screwed up and the entire balance of the game will be disturbed. Jedi-strong Gungans? Sea-strong Rebels? Nope.

The general should indeed be present in game. He/she won't be very strong in battle (thus preventing a 'general rush' or a 'hero-reliance') but will be available from the very beginning of the game.

If my general idea is accepted, I think that Thrawn will definitely be in the game, seeing as he is probably the most prominent EU military commander. Gaber would be foolish not to include him.

 

Vostok-

You said it yourself. Pilots work best with Air (I meant fighters specifically, not capital ships etc). Prominent pilots in the movies are fighter pilots, and don't you love the movies?

It would make more sense gameplay-wise, realism-wise and fun-wise to have fighter pilots. Fighters should be among the most commonly used units in the game, and this makes them more important and better to use.

 

Did you mean you loved Fergie's idea or mine?

 

Sith:

1. Yes

2. No. They have special skills. They don't impact on the proficiencies of the civ.

3. Yes.

4. No... but it might seem weird to have a Gungan Thrawn, so that might be a decent idea.... perhaps just have "good heroes/good special skills" and "evil heroes/evil special skills?" Or we could just have a Gungan with Thrawn's powers.

5. They have balanced powers based on some of the most well-known lines of the character which are designed to reflect the character's skills and personality.

 

"Cheap?" "Expensive?" Whoever mentioned resources?

There's a kind of 'mana' which the general must have a certain amount of before using a special skill.

 

The line which the character didn't just 'say offhand' is something to work off. They are the inspiration. The skills themselves are designed to be balanced.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well how would you suggest it could work, Sith?

 

I'd like to see an actual unit on the field. It would be more like the movies, where the officers where on the battlefield, or at least back in the command center. I suppose it could work like in EE where you actually build them. Perhaps rather than have specific "skills" that they use (which I'm sure is too much like WC3 for some of you) maybe the mere presence of the character gives you bonuses to HP, costs and so on. For example:

 

Trade Federation Officer - OOM-9

"If they're down here sir, we'll find them." - Mechs get +10% LOS

"They will not stay hidden for long." - Ships get +1 range

"Open fire!" - Artillery get +5 attack against Troopers

 

And as long as OOM-9 is alive you get those bonuses. When he dies you lose them. I'm not sure whether you should be allowed to build him a second time...

[CorranSec]

I'd much prefer the specific skills. Those three you suggested sound pretty good- apart from "Open fire," which is a pretty common line.

 

The officers should be on the battlefield, but they shouldn't be rebuildable, and are selected (or custom-built) at the start of the battle.

[Admiral Vostok]

By specific skills, you mean similar to WC3's magic that heroes could use? I don't know... I prefer having civ bonuses attached to the Officer. This way you get some variation within the same civ.

 

But I agree about the not rebuildable part.

 

And I know "Open Fire" is a lame line but OOM-9 doesn't really say that much and Open Fire isn't said all that often in the movies. In fact I can't think of anyone else apart from OOM-9 who says it.

[CorranSec]

Passive bonuses detract from the fun of it. It's better to have skills (like WC3's) that can be selected during battles.

 

This may sound pretty dull, but it's not a good idea to have variations within the civ. I've said it many times before, but civs are designed to be good at certain things (eg. Gungans good at sea), and we don't want players messing around with them (eg. Gungans good at air or jedi).

 

About "Open fire"... it just seems to be a line plenty of people would say. Doesn't Veers say something like that when approaching Echo Base? Don't many of the military leaders say that at some stage?

[Admiral Vostok]

Well obviously I'm not suggesting that bonuses would be contradictory to the theme of the army. Look at my OOM-9 example. It improves Mechs, Sea and Heavy Weapons. Those are the Trade Federations strong areas.

 

And about "Open Fire!" - Here's some lines you might be getting confused with:

 

Tarkin - "You may fire when ready."

Veers - "Target! Maximum firepower!"

Tarpals - "Fiaah!" (Fire! with Gungan accent)

Emperor - "Fire at will, Commander."

Piett - "Intensify forward batteries."

Farr - "Stand by ion control... fire."

Obi-Wan - "Fire them now!" (in relation to jettisoning spare parts)

Yoda - "Concentrate all your fire on the nearest starship!"

 

That's about all I can think of.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Those quotes could be good for generals.

[Sithmaster_821]

What generals would you have for the TF other than OOM-9 and that neimodian? Or what about the Naboo? Or Confeds? Or Wookies? Or Gungans? This seems like it would only work effectively for the Rebs, Reps, and Emps

[CorranSec]

Vostok- I mean that they all mean the same thing. It'd be rather boring to have a bunch of supposedly 'different' generals, all giving an order to fire. Sure, they'll do different things, but the variety is lessened.

However, the "Focus firepower" or "Amplify firepower" ones are different to just the typical "Fire", so they could definitely be included.

And the actual effects of those OOM-9 quotes sound pretty good. I'd just like to have them as special skills, not passive bonuses. And, of course, you'd need to target them at specific units.

 

Sith- Well, here's just a few:

Trade Federation: OOM-9, Nute Gunray, and a thousand other droid commanders. Just string a bunch of letters and numbers together...

Naboo: Captain Panaka, Queen/Senator Amidala, Ric Ole.

Confederacy: Poggle the Lesser, some Super Battle Droid Commander, Sev'Rance Tann, Count Dooku.

Wookies: I don't want Wookiees in the game, but you could have Chewbacca, Attichutuk, Shoran, Lumpy.

Gungans: Jar Jar Binks, Captain Tarpals, Boss Nass, Captain Marsune.

Rebels: (Should we include the actual heroes?) Leia Organa, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Jan Dodonna, Admiral Ackbar

Imperials: Darth Vader, General Veers, Grand Moff Tarkin

Republic: Clone Commander (there's thousands, obviously), Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi.

New Republic: Crix Madine, Garm Bel Iblis, Borsk Fey'lya, Wedge Antilles, Mon Mothma. Some of these are interchangable with Rebels.

Imperial Remnant: Grand Admiral Thrawn, Captain (I forget his first name) Pellaeon, Major Tierce.

Hutt Cartel: Jabba the Hutt, Jiliac the Hutt, and some Hutts out of NJO.

Smugglers Union: Talon Karrde, Mara Jade, and... I'll have a look at some books and get back to you on this.

Yuuzhan Vong: Nom Anor, Nas Choka, Prefect Da'Gara, and I haven't read all of the NJO, so can someone else give me a few?

 

It seems like plenty to me.

[lukeiamyourdad]

That's more then enough but you need to find enough quotes and quotes that make some senses. Not like most of the things that Jar Jar says. Like for for example:

 

"Mein give up2 (when he's captured by battle droids)

 

effect-instant loss

 

you know what i mean....

[CorranSec]

But you have to admit, it's pretty in-character.

 

Okay, let me have a look.

Um. Jar Jar doesn't say many good things. But then again, I'm just looking at Episode I... does anyone know some of his lines from Ep II?

 

But Jar Jar's foolishness aside, there are plenty of lines and powers that the other generals could have. After all, they're not dull, clumsy Gungans.

[Admiral Vostok]

We might have to limit it to just "Officers" rather than political leaders and heroes (even if those heroes are Officers). This is mostly because I want to see a representation on the field, and having Jedi as Officers as well as normal people is not going to be balanced. Although this does limit some civs. Let's see:

Trade Federation: OOM-9, Nute Gunray, and a thousand other droid commanders. Just string a bunch of letters and numbers together...

The problem with just making up droids is that there is no real basis for the skills they get. And Nute is a political leader, not much good on the field.

Naboo: Captain Panaka, Queen/Senator Amidala, Ric Ole.

Agreed. Even though Amidala is a political leader, she is still good in a fight, so it's okay. Also add Captain Typho.

Gungans: Jar Jar Binks, Captain Tarpals, Boss Nass, Captain Marsune.

Maybe not Boss Nass.

Rebels: Leia Organa, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Jan Dodonna, Admiral Ackbar

Well Leia is political, but good in a fight, so yes. Luke is a Jedi, so too powerful. Yes to the rest. Also Lando Calrissian, General Rieekan, General Madine.

Imperials: Darth Vader, General Veers, Grand Moff Tarkin

No to Vader (too powerful), yes to the rest, plus Admiral Piett, Moff Jerjerrod.

Republic: Clone Commander (there's thousands, obviously), Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Republic is the main problem as the Jedi really were the military leaders, but they are too powerful. And unless we see some Clone Leaders in Ep3 they could be dull.

Confederacy: Poggle the Lesser, some Super Battle Droid Commander, Sev'Rance Tann, Count Dooku.

Confederacy also a problem. Poggle the Lesser would be too weak for a unit, Tann and Dooku too strong.

 

The rest I don't care about. I think it's a shame to get rid of some that I've said above, but they really wouldn't balance well in terms of gameplay. How could we include them? Just accept that Republic's Officers are Jedi and give Republic Officer's better survivability? Or maybe we could have weaker Officers mounted in vehicles to make them just as survivable as a Jedi Officer? It would be hard to balance I think.

[CorranSec]

Why can't we have political leaders? They don't exactly have to be fighting, you know. They just hang around at the base, in the Command center, etc as you said.

For the sake of balance, Jedi officers wouldn't be as powerful. We can edit things for the sake of balance, you know. And we can't really remove them, seeing as they're the most important characters, and everyone would love to have them in the game.

 

Trade Fed: Okay, we have OOM-9 and some other droid who said things in the film. And see above for having Gunray on the field.

 

Naboo: I don't remember Typho having many lines.

 

Gungans: Why not? Stick him on a kaadu and keep him out of trouble.

 

Rebels: I have Madine for the New Republic, and I was going to put Lando as New Rep too, but he could go with the rebs, I guess. As for Luke- Gameplay>Realism, and I'm sure everyone would love to have him.

 

Imperials: Piett and Jerjerrod didn't have many/any lines. I considered them, but they're just not important enough. Vader- Gameplay>Realism.

 

Republic: Yeah, it is a problem, but we could have at least one Clone Commander and take some lines out of Ep II. And we can have Jedi- Gameplay>Realism.

 

Confederacy: We are allowed to change things, you know. We can balance them out.

 

We can include all kinds of units by simply balancing them. Gameplay>Realism. It might seem a little weird- Luke not killing things as well as he should, Nute Gunray killing things better than he should, and so on- but it can be done for the sake of gameplay and fun.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well a simple solution would be that you have to buy your officer rather than just have him from the start. Then you could charge more for Jedi and less for non-combat guys and it would all work out.

 

Besides, it isn't often that a high-ranking officer sets down at a non-developed base. The officers should become available in TL2 or equivalent. You can then buy them, but once they die that's it.

 

Typho had plenty enough lines, more than Ric Olie and definitely better suited in an Officer role. And while Jerjerrod didn't have much to say, Piett is the only Imperial Officer in more than one movie, and he has a whole lot of lines, more than Tarkin possibly and definitely more than Veers. There are entire cults surrounding Piett. It would be a shame not to include him.

[CorranSec]

I don't really like the whole 'buying' thing. It'll make them a lot more like the heroes in WC3. And after all, everyone will get the Jedi, just because they're Jedi.

No- you pick/custom-build your officer before the game starts, and then you have do reach a certain tech level, access a certain tech tree tier, research a certain upgrade... something, and he/she/it becomes available.

The simplest solution is simply to have none of them very good at combat. They should all be balanced, and someone with Jedi powers on top of Officer powers would be too powerful. Just make up a stat set that applies to every officer (HP, damage, etc) and it'll work fine.

 

I didn't know that about Typho. Could you give me a few examples to think about?

Oh, I might've gotten Piett confused with someone else. Again, could you tell me a few of his lines?

And also, wasn't Admiral Ozzel in two movies?

[Admiral Vostok]

I still think you could balance in so that Officers are different. It would be like:

Republic - Strengths: Jedi, Officers, Troops.

Trade Federation - Weaknesses: Air, Troops, Officers.

 

Typho was the guy who was head of Senator Amidala's security. He'd probably have good defensive powers. It didn't have a lot of lines, but it was still a whole lot more than Ric Olie.

 

Ozzel was the first guy Darth Vader choked to death in The Empire Strike Back. He was not in A New Hope. "He [was] as clumsy as he is foolish." After his death Piett was promoted from Captain to Admiral. ("You are in command now, Admiral Piett.") He had heaps of lines in The Empire Strikes Back, and he was also in Return of the Jedi. You may remember this:

Piett: "Hold here."

Some-other-guy-who-only-has-a-name-in-EU: "We're not going to attack?"

Piett: "I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned. We only need to stop them from escaping."

[CorranSec]

I think it's quite foolish to have a civ strength in a unit which is supposed to be balanced (Officer) with every other Officer.

It'd probably turn out one of these ways:

"Well... I'm good at Officers... but I'm too worried about my Officer, so I'll keep him back at base." (underpowered)

"Yeah! Go the Officer! He r00lz! He is ultimate l33t death machine!" (overpowered)

"Oh no. My Officer was supposed to be good, but he died." (underpowered/stupid player)

Officers aren't very good combat units. In fact, Officers aren't supposed to be good at anything but looking cool and using their special powers.

 

However, I had an idea- each Officer also gets a number of 'points' to spend on his stats. The ready-made officers shoud have stats reflecting their character. This way, you could have some combat fun with the Officers, and players with specific combat styles (eg. close-range) can customise their Officers to be good at that style.

[Admiral Vostok]

Yeah, that's not a bad idea.

 

So you mean it would kind of be like in Jedi Outcast where you have a certain amount of Force points to buy your powers with, except in this case you can buy special abilities and combat abilities? Maybe you could even get more points each Tech Level, to improve your Officer? Yeah, I like that idea.

 

You'd also have to have the option to NOT use an Officer I think.

[CorranSec]

No, not quite like that. Every officer has three special abilities selected from three lists (Skill 1, 2 and 3). However, you spend the points on each section of the Officer's stats.

It'd work like this:

You start with, say, 20 points. Your officer has these stat categories, and the *'s indicate points put in.

Attack: ********** (10 damage)

Ranged Armour: * (1 ranged armour)

Melee Armour: ** (2 melee armour)

Health: ******* (70 health)

Range: 0 (Officer uses melee attack, eg. vibroblade or lightsaber)

 

I haven't worked out how to balance the mechanics yet (how much of a thing the point grants, how many points you get, etc) but it seems like a good system to me.

And yes, at a certain tech level/tech tree tier/research/whatever you will get more points to spend.

 

I think that not using an Officer will seriously disadvantage any player. After all, they're the main players in the campaign. And if it's just for a challenge, I say no- there are better things to do.

[Admiral Vostok]

These skills would be preset, would they not? Otherwise you could have abilities that go against the civ. Or would you have a number of Empire specific skills, for example, from which to choose?

 

I think that way of building Officers by using points to buy stats would be good.

 

Or what about if you could assign whatever unit you want to be an Officer? Once the Officer upgrade becomes available you can grant it to a Trooper, a Jedi, or any military person. Then that Trooper or Jedi or whatever gets boosted stats and some Officer skills. It might cost more to turn a Jedi into an Officer or something.

 

I'm just trying to think of a balanced way that we can stay true to the characters. Maybe Officers have no attack at all? So Jedi Officers have no lightsabers, so smaller defense. This would make all Officers more equal. Then their skills would be important.

 

Just some ideas.

[CorranSec]

The skills wouldn't be preset, but they wouldn't go against the civ either. Unless someone is stupid enough to give their Gungan officer a Jedi-boosting special skill.

You pick the skills at the start from three lists. None are civ-specific, but the preset Officers are.

And here's the main reason they won't go against the civ- because they're temporary 'spells' that are activated in-game, not passive bonuses that might turn the Gungans into a Jedi-strong civ.

Plenty of the skills won't actually improve a specific type of unit anyway- there's the area-of-effect skills, the damaging skills, the single-unit enhancing skills..... we shouldn't restrict ourselves to basic bonuses.

 

Nah... I think that reaching a certain tech level/tier would make your officer available. After all, we don't want people turning AT-ATs into officers, do we?

And it simply doesn't make sense to have a basic Stormtrooper turn into Darth Vader.

 

No, I think that those people who choose (by spending their points a certain way) should indeed be able to use their Officers in battle, and use them well. But their special skills will always be far more important than their normal stats.

[Admiral Vostok]

When I said "military person" I meant pretty much only Troopers or Jedi, since the rest are either not military units or not persons. And a stormtrooper wouldn't become Darth Vader. He would become a normal Imperial Officer. A Sith Knight upgraded would become Darth Vader like. Of course in this sense you couldn't really use known characters, so it might not be ideal.

 

To be honest, the more I think about it the less I like this idea. It would be better without officers altogether, I'm starting to think...

[CorranSec]

That really wouldn't be fun. Nope, I'm sticking to the 'reaching a certain tech level/tier would make your officer available.' It's the simplest and most effective.

 

What's wrong with Officers?

[Admiral Vostok]

Well if we have Jedi Officers that are weaker than Jedi Padawans, or politicians that are better fighters than troopers, it's going to be unrealistic. And while Gameplay>Realism, that doesn't mean we have to make it unrealistic. I'd prefer not to have it than to have it done unrealistically.

[darthfergie]

Originally posted by CorranSec

Fergie-

Are your general ideas relating to the model I proposed?

I seriously dislike practically every facet of your idea. What's wrong with mine?

The special skills work a lot better than your 'points.' As I said before- with the points, civs will get completely screwed up and the entire balance of the game will be disturbed. Jedi-strong Gungans? Sea-strong Rebels? Nope.

The general should indeed be present in game. He/she won't be very strong in battle (thus preventing a 'general rush' or a 'hero-reliance') but will be available from the very beginning of the game.

If my general idea is accepted, I think that Thrawn will definitely be in the game, seeing as he is probably the most prominent EU military commander. Gaber would be foolish not to include him.

 

1. Thrawn is a fleet commander. That was Gaber's main anti-point to Thrawn and it will probably stick. Thrawn would not fit with emphasis on starfighters, no he'd have to have a STRONG emphasis on capitol ships and whole fleets.

2. Points give tons of flexability while creating a custom general and give more reign over customization of his character durring the campaign. Just having special skills limits you a bit much for my tastes, especially if you cant pick the skills and start out with a predestined skill tree. It is much harder to make custom generals this way and is very much like a WCIII hero system, which I feel should not be this closely emulated.

 

Why argue over the text of the ability? It's a nice touch, but nothing major...nothing to focus on as a main point.

 

and I must say...generals must not be usable on the battlefield. If general solo is going on a commando mission, you are his commanding officer and giving him orders from long distance. Your persona should not be seen in game, ecept for the avatar you have selected for you custom general. In normal skirmish you may choose a general/make one and for campaigns you customize as you go along...you may choose a preset general with skills already laid out at a lower level with room for customization, or make your own, from the base skills up.

 

BTW, this Point system lets you train for specific abilities, and train in general areas such as accuracy, organization (more efficient formations), moral (anti-conversions), etc...so you can specialize or diversify...if you specialize you could really end up in the crapper with a heavily specialized general when you don't have good infantry because you focused on more mech related abilities and skills, or if you diversify you could lose out when a specialized civ plays against your medium powered units.

 

BTW, "Jedi-strong Gungans? Sea-strong Rebels?" why not? it just adds to the replayability. I mean Jedi emphasis generals would be better spent in the Empire, Rebels or Republic, but If you like gungans and can't do without Jedi...you can specialize in it...and then be whipped when you've spent too many points bringing the Jedi up to normality. And undoubtedly there is a general or two inside the Rebellion that has intrests in Sea Warefare...if you get pitted up against one online it may scare the crap out of you, but it'll teach you next time to look out for every eventuality...never count out a strategy...although most smart generals will play to their strengths. I mean if an Imperial tactician went to the Rebellion would he use his old tactics that he used in the Empire? No. The Rebellion didn't have the ships to waste on large scale battles or large patrols and a huge show of force...he would naturally play to his strengths. The rebellion didn't have many, so the hit-and-run tactics take precedence.