Thoughts on promod

[DrazMan]

I realize a lot of people didn't play beta 2 so you don't really know what I'm talking about. But am I the only one who thinks it was much better? Now with guns doing 25% more damage and the increased firing rate it turned to basically quake. I kept reading how saber vs guns would be more balanced but this went the complete opposite direction in my opinion. And with the jetpack going higher then force jump and lasting longer theres no disadvantage to being a gunner.

 

I know all the arguments.

"Well gunners don't have push/pull"

They don't need to. Soon as there pulled down they fly right back up with the JP.

 

Gunners are susceptible to sabers.

Not as much as saberers are susceptible to 2 flechettes per second.

 

Just use mind trick and protect.

So dark forcers are left out of the equation now?

 

I don't know maybe my hopes were too high after playing beta 2 so much. Anyone agree with me here or am I alone on this one?

[Rad Blackrose]

After extensively playing v3, I do have to agree with the point that dark force users definetly got the shaft versus pure gunners. Also, lightsaber combat vs pure gunners has also taken a nosedive. Push and pull are practically useless in certain situations now, and I am finding the pull-disarm to be less powerful/effective in the mod. Mind Trick is the only thing that can keep a saberist alive, and that is immediately nullified if a sentry or a probe is launched.

[Toonces]

Guys, we should probly try and keep the threads about promod contained. There are already 4 other threads for feedback on Promod 3.0

[Syfo-Dyas]

Originally posted by DrazMan

theres no disadvantage to being a gunner.

 

 

Gunners SHOULDN'T BE at a disadvantage.

 

You need to check out the OTHER side of the story in the "Promod Is..." thread! It seems that some people think that there is no disadvantage to being Sith/Jedi!!!

 

It hasn't even been out a week yet, Draz, and it's a major upgrade from version 2. I think you need to spend more time learning it and less time forming opinions about it...

[DrazMan]

Spoken like a true gunner but that's beside the point. I agree gunners shouldn't "be at a disadvantage". But they have to have disadvantages. For instance a major disadvantage of being a saberist is you can't pick up bacta or the like. "Just use heal"? Again it leaves the dark side out in the cold. Now I realize you probably think it's awesome because you're a gunner and you're rockin to the top of the charts now. But grab a saber and try to honestly tell me everything is balanced.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by DrazMan

Spoken like a true gunner but that's beside the point. I agree gunners shouldn't "be at a disadvantage". But they have to have disadvantages. For instance a major disadvantage of being a saberist is you can't pick up bacta or the like. "Just use heal"? Again it leaves the dark side out in the cold. Now I realize you probably think it's awesome because you're a gunner and you're rockin to the top of the charts now. But grab a saber and try to honestly tell me everything is balanced.

 

Darkies have drain..

 

But anyway - the fact alone that 30% say gunners have an advantage, 30% say jedi's have an advantage and 30% say the Sith have an advantage and...umm.. *thinking* ...10% say hybrids rule just shows that even if we don't have perfect balance, we're pretty close to it. (just trying to make a point, don't bother nitpicking)

 

Was there anyone complaining about saberists owning in a guns enabled 1.04 FFA? .....lol.......don't think so. Now sabers have become useful and I think that is cool considering this is a STAR WARS game and all.

 

Don't forget what Promod has done to saber only games. This is not only about gunners vs. saberists.

[Wolf Devil]

Ok, I'll start with Draz's and work my way up... er down... er.. well it depends on how you look at it!

 

Draz 1: You're right, I agree dark force powers are droppin like flies if they don't go Jedi, and even though some Sith CAN kill gunners, it's an awful lot of work. Dark rage is the only power good vs gunners and when its off, youre left open for when they respawn, or some JJ (Jedi Jerk) takes advantage of your struggle. However I do believe it IS more fun than beta 2, and less people play beta 2. And you can counter the jetpack via more pullin or jumpin after them and slashin them in the air.

 

Rad: It's not nullified if you're fast enough and know just how much a sentry/seeker needs to see of you and you can use speed.

 

Syfo: You're right, it is an improvement on beta 2. However you're wrong, gunners AND Jedi/Sith should have equal advantages, aswell as equal disadvantages, and hybrids should be the norm - with no strengths or weaknesses. And where did you hear the trash that Jedi/Sith have no disadvantages? Thats sheer crap. At the moment its Gunner > Jedi > Hybrid > Sith in my opinion.

 

Draz 2: There IS drain to compensate for heal vs a Jedi, though I'll admit in the middle of a gun game you're toast.

 

Solar: No, nobody was complaining about the guns in 1.04 cuz most (and I did only say MOST, not all) people who play 1.04 are total newbs. Yes, sabers are useful.. for the 30 seconds max you have until mind trick wears off and then you're out in the open to gunners. Yes it IS about gunners vs saberist. It's like in the 50's pretty much nowadays. The saberist are the blacks, the gunners are the whites and the hybrids are jews (for the record, I'm not a racist, this is just in comparison) . Guns and sabers and hybrids should all be equal, but most people are gunners because of the level 4 guns and jetpack. While ProMod did do wonders for fighting in saber only games, beta 2 did that, minus the trump system.

 

 

Like I said, I think it's more in favor of the gunner, and less in favor of the Sith, Jedi and hybrid being caught somewhere inbetween.

 

Does anybody else agree with my above theories?

[GrEEk_OuTcAsT]

My complain is that Push/Pull are not doing anything that great vs Gunners. You should be able to drop down any Gunner from 3 meters at least and also pull his weapon from this distance.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Wolf Devil

Solar: No, nobody was complaining about the guns in 1.04 cuz most (and I did only say MOST, not all) people who play 1.04 are total newbs. Yes, sabers are useful.. for the 30 seconds max you have until mind trick wears off and then you're out in the open to gunners. Yes it IS about gunners vs saberist. It's like in the 50's pretty much nowadays. The saberist are the blacks, the gunners are the whites and the hybrids are jews (for the record, I'm not a racist, this is just in comparison) . Guns and sabers and hybrids should all be equal, but most people are gunners because of the level 4 guns and jetpack. While ProMod did do wonders for fighting in saber only games, beta 2 did that, minus the trump system.

 

Like I said, I think it's more in favor of the gunner, and less in favor of the Sith, Jedi and hybrid being caught somewhere inbetween.

 

I won't even pretend I have a clue what you meant with the white-black-jew-allegory, lol!

 

But as I said: it's not *ONLY* about the gunners vs. saberists. That's just one facet in Promod, albeit one of the most important ones. There are a lot of saberists who really don't think this issue is even relevant, 'cause they play saber-only games.

 

As to saberfights.. I haven't heard any complaints, which is somewhat unbelievable.

 

The truth is that when things change, you need to adapt. Some people hated 1.03 'cause it nerfed guns. Still guns owned FFA's easily. In 1.04 the saber is totally uninportant (except for defence in certain situations). The...umm..damn it...I forgot

 

Anyways - I'm sure there is "The Best Strategy" in Promod too. It can't be all "paper-rock-scissors", but...

 

The point is: I don't see the any all-powerful move (like the 1.03 backstab) in Promod. Still; it doesn't mean that the game is unabalanced just because you can't beat everyone with your chosen strat.

 

Uh... I'm not making any sense today am I?

[DrazMan]

Well I saw a lot of references to base 1.04 so let me clear this up. In no way do I think 1.04 is more balanced then promod. Promod is the best mod out there, despite it's shortcomings. Basically the only major thing I see that unbalances the whole thing is the jetpack. Since gunners lost the ability to use the force, an increased rate of fire and damage is fine. But to be able to fly while filling a room with flechettes is what messes up the balance. Simply making it so they can't fire anything but the briar while they fly I think would fix a lot. After all it would be hard to fire a big gun while operating a jetpack.

[Wolf Devil]

I think there should be recoil to the current heavy ones, plus a slower rate of firing while flying. I've heard talk of a flamethrower, which sounds interesting, but from the same guy who suggested it suggested it take away jetpack fuel so flyin w/ a flamethrower (should artifex decided to implement one) would be screwed

[Toonces]

It was I who proposed the flame thrower, I just suggested that maby it uses the same fuel as the jetpack for balance, not that it HAS to be I just think a short range AOE weapon would be a nice addition for emergencies.

[Wolf Devil]

Ah, ok. Yes, you're right, it would make a nice addition and it WOULD make sense that it uses the jetpack fuel... and it could replace the damned stun baton!!!

 

AOE?

[Toonces]

AOE=Area of Effect

 

I was thinking the same thing about the stun baton, I would remove that and replace it with the flamethrower. I'm not sure if it would imbalance the class at all, but that's why I proposed using the same fuel the Jetpack uses. This could also solve the problem with Mercs starting off with minimal weapons

[Wolf Devil]

Right, and not having to depend solely on the bryar/a lucky spawn near a gun you have available to you.

 

Edit: Yay, Artifex is on

Edit 2: Poop, Art's off

[Syfo-Dyas]

Originally posted by DrazMan

Spoken like a true gunner Now I realize you probably think it's awesome because you're a gunner and you're rockin to the top of the charts now. But grab a saber and try to honestly tell me everything is balanced.

 

That's odd... I don't feel like a gunner...

 

It seems I'm being mis-quoted or misunderstood.

 

I never said that ProMod 3 was balanced... I DO think it's taking steps in the right direction. But I could have told you a while ago that Gunners would receive extra special attention simply because ProMod has been accused of being a 'Saberist dominates' Mod. So it stands to reason that ArtifeX is going to be thinking "I don't want to give the Saberists too much power, and I don't want to give the Gunners too little". Naturally he's going to err on the side of conservatism.

 

Secondly, all I was REALLY saying to you was that the Mod was new, and that it is going to take time to get used to it, and learn how to make effective use of the new system. I didn't say it was perfect. Only that you sound as if you were jumping to conclusions. Lighten up, my friend.

 

Are we not moving in the right direction? Is it possible that ProMod 4 will be an improvement over ProMod 3? This is a work in progress. Work with it and help it develop.

[Moradivh]

I think you guys are getting a little too carried away. A flamethrower? C'mon, there must be a way Art can balance the game without spending all his off-hours making new, untested features. The more you add, the more can go wrong. Besides, he's already working on 1-2 new force powers and probably doesn't need anything else on his list right now. So let's try to work with what we've got, balance that first.

 

Instead of thinking about how a flamethrower would work in promod, why not consider how to tweak Drain so that it's more effective? Idunno, maybe Art could have it deplete shields and turn that into health. I know it sounds a little stupid, but it'd certainly make Drain more useful, and who says a darksider couldn't do it? It's not like we've ever seen personell shields in the movies anyway. Or drain. So who cares as long as it helps the Sith class hold their own? In any case I'm open to other suggestions.

 

As for lightning, why not have it do extra damage to gunners as well? One could argue that Jedi (at lvl 3 force) have a natural resistance, while mercs (lvl 2 force or less) don't. I mean, lightning is already somewhat useful in saber-only combat -- it's the gunner's lvl 4 weapons that outmatch it. Doesn't it make sense that lightning have a bonus against them?

 

Also, despite the inherant edge of gunners and weakness of Sith right now, remember that player skill STILL determines the outcome of a fight 75% of the time, no matter what class you're using. If balance changes are made, they don't need to be too drastic. Remember that there's a ton of invisible attack and defense bonuses in promod that Art can play around with. Perhaps he can make gunners easier to hit while airborne.

 

Also, I wouldn't screw with the jetpack fuel. If it was any weaker I don't think it'd really feel like a jetpack. Besides, right now it's very reminiscent of Tribes, which alot of people like.

 

But if we're really going to mess with the gunner class, we should probably talk to a real gunner. I wonder if TK_Nutritious reads these threads....

[Toonces]

Well, I was simply trying to address the complaint that gunners start with minimal weapons. Nutritious may be the person to ask about guns, but it's not like I'm a noob or anything. I simply think that they could use something like that at close range for last resort use. While I'm not a coder I still understand how you can mess things up by adding stuff, I've done enough of my fair share of editing for this game to understand these things.

 

What to do about the Sith? I usually play as a Sith and I've been doing extremely well. Perhaps I'm the exception to that but I wasn't aware they had any problems. Lightning is short range now, that's not been a problem for me at all. I'll keep my eyes open to see how it may be able to be improved.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Consider this: A saberist can deflect energy energy shots and push back explosives. If a gunner can get a kill its because the saberist didn't do either, it makes logical sense that a Gunner should hold the edge on the majority of encounters, the exception being close combat, saberists have the ability to force gunners into close quarters but very few actually do it effectively.

 

Even in the films the Jedi would be an easy kill if they didn't *bother* to defend against gunners. In the films Jedi are RARE, yet everyone in this game seems to want to be a Jedi who can beat gunners with relatively little practise. This is an inherant flaw in trying to balance Guns vs Sabers. I play basejk because I don't think in terms of Guns vs Saber, I play promod for the occasional challenge because it is HARDER for a gunner to win, whether I think this a good thing or not.

 

However playing promod for a couple of days did totally screw up my flow in basejk, so if you are a gunner your challenge is double.

[Wolf Devil]

I have come up with a way to make lightning more useful against gunners, and a way in general for force users to have an extra edge vs gunners and hybrids who favor gunning:

 

 

Lightning: Why not make it so that when a gunner's shields are down, it destroys the current gun. And also, it can destroy explosives from if fired at the Sith within a certain arc, however it leaves the Sith much more open to bryar, blaster, disruptor, demp, etc

 

Level 1: Being but a single bolt, it has to be pretty dead on with the gunner(to destroy their gun) or explosive, and will only destroy their explosives from 15 degrees away from the bolt. Sith is 75% more vulnerable to other guns

 

Level 2: Level 2 gives more leway to the Sith, as it can now destroy the explosive from 30 degress off of the bolts. Sith is 50% more vulnerable to guns

 

Level 3: Should pretty much create a good shield from the gunner's explosive and can quickly drain shields and destroy their guns. Sith is 25% more vulnerable to guns

 

 

So wha ya think? Good or no?

 

 

Sensing: Throughout all the movies, and alot of the EU, the Jedi/Sith have been able to "sense" things. Why not implement it with sight?

 

Level 1: Can sense force-user 3 meters away, a gunner 6 meters away, any weapon fire (cept disruptor) from 4.5 meters away. Can only sense things if within the same amount as seeing's lvl1 sniper dodge only from behind.

 

Level 2: Can sense force-user 5 meters away, a gunner 10 meters away, any weapon fire (cept disruptor) from 7.5 meters away. Can only sense things if within the same amount as seeing's lvl2 sniper dodge, only from behind.

 

Level 3: Can sense force-user 8 meters away, a gunner 16 meters away, any weapon fire (cept disruptor) from 12 meters away. Can sense when someone has homing lock or disruptor on full charge is aimed at him. Can only sense things if within the same amount as seeing's lvl3 sniper dodge only from behind (however can feel whether or not he's being homed/close to being sniped from any direction).

 

 

Those are just some ideas I had.

I've told Art about all this, but I was wonderin what you guys would think. I think this does sorta answer your question on a way to increase Sith potential, Toonc .

[Mex]

Am I the only person who thinks that 1.04 is better than promod?

[Wolf Devil]

You better be

[ArtifeX]

These are all good comments guys. I'll be looking at balance constantly while i'm debugging my build of 3.1. The Lazarous challenge matches are tonight, so don't forget! I'll be looking at them carefully to see what, if any, changes need to be made. I've got a few on my list already.

[Hekx]

Originally posted by Flanders

Am I the only person who thinks that 1.04 is better than promod?

I'm with ya

I personally don't get ProMod, maybe one day I'll begin playing it more. But there's some fun in waving a laser stick around aimlessly until you hit something.

[TK_Nutritious]

Originally posted by Moradivh

But if we're really going to mess with the gunner class, we should probably talk to a real gunner. I wonder if TK_Nutritious reads these threads....

 

heh I do occasionally. I've only been playing promod for a couple days, but I am starting to see some of the imbalance issues you are discussing here.

 

I'm not sure if I agree that sith are as weak as most ppl think, probly the worst thing that can happen to me is getting gripped and single-shot slashed. Even after grip is turned off I'm still stuck in place just long enough for a well timed hit. Though maybe a raise in lightning damage would be appropriate.

 

Second, I wouldn't touch jetpack fuel duration: anyone at all familiar with how it worked in tribes 2 shouldn't have a problem using it here. I think the ppl that don't think it's effective enough just need to learn how to use it correctly.

 

One of the biggest problems I see in gunner vs. saber is when the gunner gets pulled/pushed to the ground. It's too easy for the gunner to escape by hitting jetpack as he gets instant altitude away from the saber. An idea I had earlier was maybe you wouldn't be able to use jetpack immediately after getting pulled, but saber damage is cut in half. So instead of escaping 5 times in a row and taking no damage, the gunner would die after it happening at least 2 times. I'm still trying to think of a good way to keep the gunner from escaping too easily yet make pulling a gunner over still a viable tactic.

 

Something I definately do want to see is a raise in riot prod damage. I mean come on, if I'm gonna stand up to a jedi's lightsaber at least make the prod kill in 2 or 3 hits

 

Oh yeah, another thing. I think of all weapons the flak gun is too powerful. Fire 2 volleys into a crowd of fighting jedi and it's all over for all of them. A way to improve this would be to keep the direct-hit damage the same for the secondary fire, but reduce the splash damage from the explosion of the shots. This would make it still powerful if you aim it right, but would also balance it a bit better to keep people from just spamming it everywhere.

 

Well that's all I can think of for now, hope this helps somewhat.