Darth_Linux Posted December 23, 2002 Share Posted December 23, 2002 One of the mappers is pretty busy getting the Arc Hammer level finished up and we would like to hear some opinions about how to handle the conveyer belt jumping puzzles in that level. Should we reproduce them exactly as in the original? Update them to be less like Super Mario Brothers? Eliminate them entirely? Turn it into a knock off of the Geonosis Factory Conveyor Belt scene from AOTC? let's hear some thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted December 23, 2002 Share Posted December 23, 2002 I say leave it alone. Puzzles are good, especially if they are inventive like the vault and the conveyor belts. However!!! There is this duck that must be made to proceed (the hardest part of the puzzle) that a ducking JO Kyle may not be able to get through. Just a heads-up-on that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfect Chaos Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 I say keep it the same exactly. However, there are a couple of things that should be fixed. In Dark Forces, if you fall, it makes you lose like 96 HP. That's really not fair So I say put some extra med kits down there or something... because newer people are definately gonna fall. Well actually, I think in JO Kyle will be able to fall farther distances with little damage. You'll also have to raise the walls a little higher that Kyle has to crouch under, as Katarn just mentioned, because in JO you can't crouch as low. In DF you could crouch and fit into an area with a z unit value of like 16 units above ground... well maybe not that low but it is very low I know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Mania Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 Map=Same Gameplay=Change for that map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Vector Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 My opinion is that you should stay as close to the original as possible - this goes for the whole of the MOD. Only implement changes to the original design if it's absolutely unavoidable. I must admit that I'm just being selfish here, to be honest I'm not really interested in anything more than a straight port - a Doom Legacy/JDoom type update would have sufficed for me, although I realise this may not coincide with your plans. The most important thing IMO is that nothing remains that reminds me of Jedi Outcast, which I don't consider a true successor to DF and JK in any way. It may seem picky, but I even consider something as minor as the status update JO bleep in your demo annoying and unwanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 JO is indeed the worse in the series for maps/textures/gameplay. Sure, it looks like the SW universe, but gets really repetitous and bland once you get to the next level pretty much... But with DF textures on cheezy-puzzle maps that have no logic as to why the heck they're there, that is what makes DF, JK, and MotS so great. We saw what you could do with the demo, so I have no worries. Back on point, leave it. Just fiddle around with the problem mentioned above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted December 25, 2002 Author Share Posted December 25, 2002 What are some of your other cheesy puzzle favorites from the first 3 games? Can you all elaborate on why you liked the cheese factor in them? This might give us some more ideas on how to capture that original DF/JK/MOTS feel and not succumb to the JO bland factor. On a side note, I would have loved to get source code for DF and just do a win32 openGL version ala zDoom or jHexen, but alas, LEC is not releasing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravensroke Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Its just my opinion, but that particular convetor belt always felt sorta static to me, I mean if its a conveyor belt, it should be doing something. That's why I would recommend changing it to something resembling the Episode II conveyor belt scene. Something with welders and things. Still an obstacle course, but something that feels like its in the 21st century instead of a 1980's arcade. Personally, I'm all for preserving the original game, but I have a feeling that IF LucasArts were doing a conveyor belt today, they would make it like Episode II, and that's what I think MOD is all about, remaking DF Like it would be made today. Just my $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 Thanks for the update explining the problem. When I said they were cheezy, I meant there was no purpose in doing such a stupid think. Level 3 had those doors that were locked, so the puzzle made sense. That isn't a spoiler all, because you'll learn in the breifing right away about the maze. Later levels, however, had some stupid puzzles of moving stuff, and we had no clue as to what it was we were riding on. Just a big giant platform with a hidden switch guarded by DTs and Gammoreans. Can't think of specific examples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 DF was an early FPS, and like other early FPSs, had very cheesy puzzles, mostly because there was no other choice. JK on the other hand, had excellent puzzles that made a LOT more sense. JO is like DF again, simply because Raven's level designers suck. I suggest you change any of those rubix cube type puzzles from DF to things more believable and more realistic. Who cares if it's not staying to the original? If people want the exact original, they should play it. I don't think this mod should just be DF with better graphics, I think you guys should aim to make it into what DF SHOULD have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salv Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 I agree with Emon here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Originally posted by Emon I think you guys should aim to make it into what DF SHOULD have been. Ummm, when I was playing the demo, I was amazed at what I saw. Don't ruin that by replacing the puzzles, please. Adding details to the level, however, is totally different in all respects. When you said EPII conveyor belt, I was confused as to what you meant. Sure, add some details to the belts, but don't put welders in, because if you remember, those welders on the Arc Hammer can get quite nasty up close... Maybe you could put some raw elements on the belt and a ore grinder that crushes the stuff. This would be on level 8, not 14. For 14, put some exo-skeletons of DTs on the belts, but this may interfere with Kyle's movements... I suggest testing a bunch of different things for the belts. Is their noise in that level? It's way too quite I think. Add machinery noises to those factory levels and the spaceport level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_One Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 I think we should work out more clearly the different options we have before us, then put it to the poll on the website next week - it's about time we got some useful feedback from that thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Originally posted by Katarn07 Don't ruin that by replacing the puzzles, please. Ruin it? That Arc Hammer puzzle was a peice of crap, how would making a better puzzle ruin it? If you want DF's ****ty puzzles, go play the original game. The story shouldn't be changed, but the puzzles should. Some of DF's puzzles where good, but a lot of them were random rubix cubes thrown into the level. With a modern engine you can create much more realistic puzzles that will contribute to the absortion factor of the environment and make it more fun to play. Back in 1994, it wasn't possible to make really good, complex and realistic puzzles like we can make now. No one had any expectations other than a rubix cube either. But it's 2002 now, the standards are much different. The DF mod team is trying to keep up with today's standards in graphics, sound, and AI, so I see no reason why not to keep up with the standard for puzzles and challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 How would you replace it? You'd have to mess with the entire architecture of the map? We don't want that! I'm not sure what was so "stupid" about this puzzle, it was really one of the better ones. You had to stop the belts to proceed, and to do that, there is a switch to do just that on the wall. Now that is a bit unrealistic I think. To make it realistic, add a worker there or something. But when putting in workers, don't make them kill you (if possible), we don't want new enemies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 You don't have to change the entire architecture of the map to change DF's silly puzzles, you never would have to. The reason it's bad is simply that it's rediculous. It was all just a random mess of conveyor belts that served no apparant purpose. To fix this, it should be redesigned into a real construction facility for the Dark Troopers. And I don't see what would be bad about adding worker NPCs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted December 31, 2002 Author Share Posted December 31, 2002 Originally posted by Emon You don't have to change the entire architecture of the map to change DF's silly puzzles, you never would have to. The reason it's bad is simply that it's rediculous. It was all just a random mess of conveyor belts that served no apparant purpose. To fix this, it should be redesigned into a real construction facility for the Dark Troopers. And I don't see what would be bad about adding worker NPCs... Great ideas Emon - I'll see that the level goes in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 By the way, there should be things like conveyor belts moving raw materials, welders and assembler things that should make various parts of the Dark Troopers in front of your eyes. With ICARUS in SP it would be pretty easy to do, just some brush entity moving commands and hide the transformation of stuff behind things like welders and presses (raw materials go in, armor comes out, etc). It'll take some more coding if you're using the MP code, but your team is, I hope, up to that challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 As long as it doesn't interfere with Kyle's movements, I have no argument. I have suggestions below. But no raw materials in 14, its a factory for the DTs. Put arms, limbs, and various parts on it. Raw phrik can be in the little hour glass containers (as seen in level 4) on the belts in level 8 and they can then fall into that one pit of gases near the end of the exterior area of the level. Once again as long as it doesn't interfere and knock me off all the time, I have no complaints. Please don't add new NPCs unless you do the JO enemy update for a 4th difficulty level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 No, the raw materials should still be there. That thing on level 4 was a processing and testing plant for that stuff, but it still needs to turn into Dark Trooper armor, which would happen on the Arc Hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Make the phrik red in 8, silver in 14??? Also, I realized that your solution of adding more detail doesn't get rid of the fact that Kyle must jump around like the Super Mario Bros, as Darth put it, to complete the level... And I don't want it to anyways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 I said they should redesign the puzzle completely so it's not so damn stupid. It's the logical thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmolatedYoda Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 now that i think about it, an episode II like assembly line would be sweet! like arms swinging back and forth, tweaking parts and stuff, some that would knock you off, perhaps into a great chasm or more belts or something? that would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by ImmolatedYoda like arms swinging back and forth, tweaking parts and stuff, some that would knock you off, perhaps into a great chasm or more belts or something? that would be cool. That is what I don't want! That level's puzzle is good as is. Adding details like arms tweaking stuff is fine, as long as it doesn't hurt me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfect Chaos Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 In my opinion, all the puzzles are fine. I find myself being a purist, but still... honestly, it isn't called a Dark Forces MOD for nothing. This isn't a TC, but still... I hate to be harsh, but if it is better puzzles you want... go look for some other mod/custom maps. If DF is to be converted into JO with better graphics, better AI, and new detail (simply detail, not new added stuff), none of this will work. In my opinion, any new such things will ruin the feel of the original game; and that's just what Darth and I and many others want this mod to accomplish, and that is to capture the original feel of Dark Forces... Also in my opinion, but I think that new textures, AI, models, new detail, etc... is completely fine with me to get me to get excited all over again about Dark Forces. I don't need all this extra junk that wasn't even in Dark Forces. PS - Please do not get offended by this post. I am stating my opinion in the best way I can without offending anyone... if you are offended I'm very sorry, but I tried not to be cruel to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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