C'jais Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by {BK}SupremePain people cloning and selling human lives on the black market, groving slaves etc. I don't think we'll get to the point of growing slaves. Clones have just the same rights as normally bred humans. If someone wanted to sell slaves, he could already do it now. It'd be tough work though, as the slave owner would have to get the clones raised from birth, which would literally take ages. Better to just grab some fresh, mature ones already grown to the right size. i think its definetly a chance considering that some people now adays actuly kidnape human beings and sell there organs to hospitals I think that's an urban myth, but I'm not completely sure. I don't think hospitals just accept organs coming in from the streets, and I guess they have to be carefully transported as well. Not to mention that they probably won't as good a prize to make up for all the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Ok sorry I'm a little late here I disagree with cloning for all reasons but here is the main one... human males were made with a penis and human females with a vagina for the specific purposes of reproducing. If we take that away then we are losing something very valuble. Even those people who are unable to have a baby because of complications then they can always adopt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{BK}SupremePain Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Even those people who are unable to have a baby because of complications then they can always adopt. yes they can adopt but the child wouldent have there DNA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast human males were made with a penis and human females with a vagina for the specific purposes of reproducing. If we take that away then we are losing something very valuble. No need to worry. I don't think people are going to give up sex any time soon. And I honestly don't think everybody could/would have their child cloned if the option was there. Think deeper about it: Would you want your child to be a hybrid between your partner and you, or a complete replica of either? I don't think most people are that egoistic when it comes down to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{BK}SupremePain Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 I think that's an urban myth, but I'm not completely sure. I don't think hospitals just accept organs coming in from the streets, and I guess they have to be carefully transported as well. Not to mention that they probably won't as good a prize to make up for all the work. i can tell you this: i know a guy that onced was on a tour bus in south amarika they stopped to look at a sight when sudenly one of the people on the tour were missing they called the police and there was a big search after him, the police later found the man in a gutter sleeping they took him to a docter and he discovered a scare on the mans tummy... someone had taken the man , taken his kidney and pitched him back up again.. the docter that ecsamended him saw that it was very professional... the people that had done it definitly knew what they were doing.... you see the people that does these kinds of things are professionals the hospitals just look the other way and dosent ask questions..... and i can tell you they definitly make a lot of money doing something like this, it may even be docters on hospitals doing it, that could explain that they realy know what they are doing and dosent cuase so much damage on the people and about the other thing i said that it could seam a bit exentrick to some people... so ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by Andy867 So, would it be so hard in the next say 50 years to study DNA strands that exceed normal muscle growth and faster foot speed, better reflexes. because all of this deals with our genetic make-up and training. True, but that's not cloning. That's genetic engineering and a different subject. And I honestly don't think everybody could/would have their child cloned if the option was there. Think deeper about it: Would you want your child to be a hybrid between your partner and you, or a complete replica of either? I don't think most people are that egoistic when it comes down to it. Very true, if they could get the technique down right, they could just combine the parent's DNA and create a new set for the baby (just like the old fashion way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 But then think about it razor, when the right genomes are chosen, they are placed into the selected DNA code strand, because most the of the original DNA has to remain in order to make-up the rest of the genetic material. So most of the person would still be a clone, just enhanced in a sense. And cloning could be considered genetic engineering since the cloned dna wont be 100% exact, its just that, genetic engineering. Anything that deals with alternations or extractions of genetic material, especially that of a clone dna strand, can be categorized as being genetic engineering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 And your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Keralys Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Most of you are missing one critical point throughout this topic. The truth is, we don't NEED cloning! It is quite possible to take stem cells - yes the exact kind needed - from a fully grown human adult. There is no requirement for cloning. (Also, since when does "rational" apply only to atheists? Newton wasn't an atheist, neither was Galileo, daVinci, or many others.) The point is, there is no need for cloning, so why do it when there are other alternatives that don't require taking a human life? Because it is murder, pure and simple. The heart is beating pretty early, and anyone who's ever seen an ultra sound recognizes life - human life - even in a fetus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Stem cells from where in the adult body? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Stem cells from where in the adult body? exactly where the hell are stem cells located in adults? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by Master_Keralys Most of you are missing one critical point throughout this topic. The truth is, we don't NEED cloning! It is quite possible to take stem cells - yes the exact kind needed - from a fully grown human adult. And where would these stem cells reside in a grown adult? But you're right of course, we don't need cloning. We don't need stem cell research to save lives, but it's still a pretty neat idea. Just as we don't really need TV's, medicine, antibiotics etc. The heart is beating pretty early, and anyone who's ever seen an ultra sound recognizes life - human life - even in a fetus. The heart is beating pretty early? It's not at all beating when we take the stem cells from the 4 celled embryo and reprogram them to another kind of cell. Y'see, there's no killing involved in stem cell cloning. No cells are going to die. No life will be murdered. Of course, abortion is another matter, but save that for the thread about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by InsaneSith exactly where the hell are stem cells located in adults? Recently discovered actually. Stem cells in adults have been found in a few places, for example, umbilical cords, and bone I believe. Apparently it's just as, if not more useful than foetal stem cells. Aborted foetuses and cloned embryos are a far more plentiful and reliable source though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I guess I remember that about the umbilical cord. But, it's a pain to get to ether source. Getting to stuff inside the bone is very painful for the patient. The umbilical cords have to be carefully removed to preserve the stem cells inside the cord. (I think the cells are inside the blood that's in the cord.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Keralys Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 The thing is, it is more convenient to destroy fetuses to harvest the stem cells. And more difficult and painful to get them from anywhere in an adult (the spine is a strong source of stem cells, too). But which do you think most people would prefer, a lot of pain, or a cure for their disease? As far as convenience goes, is it convenient to raise a child with Down's Syndrome? Is it convenient to raise children at all? Or how about people who aren't working today because they're old - should we just remove them because they're not convenient? What differentiates us from Hitler if we're willing to sacrifice others for our own convenience? What's changed in the past 50 years? If there is no absolute morality, then there is no right and wrong except what is right for each one of us. If that's the case, what's wrong with the Columbine massacre, or Hitler's genocide, for that matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Originally posted by Master_Keralys What differentiates us from Hitler if we're willing to sacrifice others for our own convenience? What's changed in the past 50 years? If there is no absolute morality, then there is no right and wrong except what is right for each one of us. If that's the case, what's wrong with the Columbine massacre, or Hitler's genocide, for that matter? There is no right and wrong. Until it's been proved, we'll have to assume there isn't any. 'Thing is, what Hitler did wasn't a benefit to individuals in any way. No good came out of it (none which could make up for the killings). Actions that hurt individuals and/or society is to be avoided. Anyone can make up their ideals of right and wrong that end up hurting society. This is what Hitler did. And his ideals were no more false than the Jew's or Christian's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalorian54 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I'm against cloning, come on it's stupid if you think about what happens to the clone, his life will be a nightmare, he'll be living in a test tube, he wont have parents that love him with the same aspect of someone who gave birth to him. he's going to be a serial killer or comit suicide. I'm betting he's going to have birth defects and be retarted or somthin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Originally posted by Master_Keralys The thing is, it is more convenient to destroy fetuses to harvest the stem cells. And more difficult and painful to get them from anywhere in an adult (the spine is a strong source of stem cells, too). But which do you think most people would prefer, a lot of pain, or a cure for their disease? Dude, donating stem cells is a voluntary act. We're not stealling fetuses to harvest stem cells. Plus, there's a safety issue with getting stem cells from adults that isn't a problem with fetuses. What differentiates us from Hitler if we're willing to sacrifice others for our own convenience? What's changed in the past 50 years? If there is no absolute morality, then there is no right and wrong except what is right for each one of us. If that's the case, what's wrong with the Columbine massacre, or Hitler's genocide, for that matter? We do it all the time. If you live in a nonthird world country, you're indirectly useing others for your personal benifit. Morality is determined by your culture, society, upbringing, religion, etc. There's no evidence of an "absolute" moral code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Keralys Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 It's not voluntary for the fetus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I'm betting he's going to have birth defects and be retarted or somthin. But that's the beauty, if you want to call it that. You will know exactly how the dna will be setup. You will be determining everything. Its like picking a computer. You will know exactly how it will look. Its not like you would be buying a Gateway E-Series Tower and get a Compaq Presario or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Originally posted by Master_Keralys It's not voluntary for the fetus. Does my finger have any say on what it does today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Keralys Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 No. But your finger isn't going to turn into an unmistakably human group of cells within the next three weeks, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 'Cause it's already a bunch of human cells. Duh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psydan Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Razor, if we let your finger try to make decisions, no matter how long we wait, it's never gonna develop any further, you could let it sit there for all of eternity, and it would never make a decision, but if you let a fetus develop, it will eventually be able to make decisions. BUT I think that cloning is wrong in its very essence, unless you can clone organs without endangering or aborting life, or if that is how people choose to reproduce (test tube babies don't seem argued about, though I see nothing wrong with the "old fashioned" way, for any evolutionists, that was the way we evolved ((by the way, I never understood, which came first male or female?)), so why not use that process?) I do see a problem with taking stem cells from developing fetuses though, if you let those cells develop into a human life, then 20 years later you killed it, it would be a criminal offence, but using it to make organs is ok?Another problem is that we haven't perfected it, if it can be perfected, and it took 276 failed attepts to make the first cloned mammal. Do we really want to take that kind of risk for a new novel way of reproducing?By the way, with cloning there is no "sperm connecting with egg", otherwise the genes would come from different parents, it is taken from a cell off of the "parent" and that person is the genetic equal to the clone. Even so, it is still a human life, so I believe that if human cloning is possible, that the clone will be fully human, with a soul and full rights as a human(for those like me who believe that people have souls).Also, a clone takes the same amount of time to develop as a normal child, so why is there a fear of clone armies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I think you have a point about devaluing human life but I disagree with how it relates to cloning. You first have to be able to clone a whole person before you can expect to be able to clone individual parts for medical purposes. As for failed attempts, they're more likely to simply result in a miscarriage or non-growth than some sort of birth defect mutant. These are all possibilities for normal human reproduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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