GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- But If we cloned people, we would no longer be unique individuals like God made us. If you raised 2 clones in 2 different households, even if they lived just down the street from eachother, they would be TOTALLY different individuals.... You're just judging a book by it's cover. It's how we think and feel that makes us the people we are. If there is a god, he must approve of a little lack of physical differentiation here and there.... after all, he does allow identical twins and triplets and so-on to occur naturally. Or are they mistakes? Biological errors in his grand scheme.... should we outcast people who look the same, or god forbid, even think the same. I don't see any good reason to have cloning, except to use it as technology to get rid of birth defects, viruses and for organ replacement/spinal regeneration, etc... I'd say that's one hell of a good reason. Don't you think wiping out previously uncurable and terminal diseases for good is worth crossing a few moral boundries for? I believe that people are given souls at the moment the sperm touches the egg, be that in the womb, a petri dish, a test tube or where ever else that do that. Is sperm touching an egg. it is the joining of two people, animals, etc in order to create another. cloning is just copying some dna. i don't see how anybody could want to create soul-less beings, or who would want to be one. Well when we finally raise a clones human being, if he turns out to be 'soul-less' as you put it, I'll let that statement slide... But, how is it exactly that you determine if they're soul-less? I'd consider 'soul' to be a person's essence. Their emotions, their way of life. As far as we know, that's all in the brain. Heck, we've even found what PART of the brain.... so if the brain's the same, the 'soul' must be there, my friend i believe that things other than dna make up the core of who a person is. things such as personality and character. yes, these things are also shaped over time, but people are born with the general outline of them. i really don't think that personality and character can be defined by amino acids, proteins, nucleotide chains, etc. there is much more to people than that. From what I know, emotions, feelings, thoughts..... they're all just chemical reactions within the brain. We've identified that as a scientific proof by observing brain-chemical alterations through emotional changes. why do we need to clone humans anyway?Have you ever heard the saying "kids are cruel"? What will the REAL children say? God made man NOT man made man. plus the world population is already a problem. Why add more of us who are LIKE us? As much as we are a terrible generation, full of misfits and evil, we have to admit that we love ourselves and eachother. We like us. In the biblical sense, yes, god DID make man. He made A man... and he made a woman. That man and woman made their children, who made their own children, who proceeded to kill eachother for no reason and be insanely incestuous... Man has does so much.... We've come so far... Thus why humanism has come about.. The belief that we've come this far without the help of some omnipotent being. We are in control. We have the power. We have imagination. We can do anything, and we will try it at least once. Instead of wasting a lot of money cloning people, the money would better be spent on research to prevent the disease and to cure it without crossing moral lines. sure a genetic match of organs would help a lot, but i just think people can do better than this. The cloning of human embryos IS for research.... we've hit a stop sign with many diseases and ailments, where we cannot progress without the help of stem cells. I'll post a little I wrote for an essay a few years back ----- Stem cells have the ability to divide for indefinite periods and to give rise to specialized cells. Stem cells are the base cells on which every cell in our body is based. When an unborn child is in the early foetal stage, it is a mass of stem cells, ready to change into the various cells needed throughout the body to be made, eg- nerve cells, muscle cells, etc. For this reason, stem cells are very rare, as most are converted in the early pregnancy stages. In adults and children, stem cells reside mainly in the bone marrow, and to a lesser degree in the blood. There are 3 types of stem cells. Totipotent – high potential – can become any cell essentially Pluripotent – medium potential – can become most cells, but not all Multipotent – low potential – a more specialized cell, with less thing it is able to become There are several important reasons why the isolation of human pluripotent stem cells is important to science and to advances in health care. At the most fundamental level, pluripotent stem cells could help us to understand the complex events that occur during human development inside the womb. A primary goal of this work would be the identification of any factors involved in the cell specialization process. Some of our most serious medical conditions, such as cancer and birth defects, are due to abnormal cell specialization and cell division. A better understanding of normal cell processes will allow doctors to try and beat these often-deadly illnesses. Pluripotent stem cells would allow testing of medical drugs to counter disease in more cell types. This would not replace testing in whole animals and testing in humans, but it is a step towards it. Only the drugs that are both safe and appear to have a beneficial effect will continue on to further testing in laboratory animals and human subjects. What many consider to be the most potential-filled application of human pluripotent stem cells is the generation of cells and tissue that could be used for "cell therapies." Many diseases and disorders result from disruption of cellular function or destruction of tissues of the body. Today, donated organs and tissues are often used to replace damaged or destroyed tissue, but unfortunately, the number of people suffering from these disorders exceeds the number of organs available for transplant by far. Pluripotent stem cells, specially controlled to develop into specialized cells, offer the possibility of a constant supply of replacement tissue and organs to treat a plethora of diseases and disabilities, including Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases, spinal cord injury, stroke, burns, heart disease, diabetes, osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis. 2 such uses are explained briefly below. -Transplant of heart muscle cells could provide new hope for patients with chronic heart disease whose hearts can no longer pump adequately. The hope is to develop heart muscle cells from human pluripotent stem cells and transplant them into the failing heart muscle in order to augment the function of the failing heart. Tests on mice and other animals have demonstrated that healthy heart muscle cells transplanted into the heart can successfully repopulate the heart tissue and work together with the host cells. -In the many individuals who suffer from Type I diabetes, the production of insulin by pancreas cells, called islet cells, is abnormally reduced. There is evidence that transplantation of either the entire pancreas or isolated islet cells could reduce the need for insulin injections. The potential for further research and development in the area of stem cell manipulation is extensive, but doctors face a moral dilemma at the same time. The primary source of stem cells for laboratory research is from aborted foetuses. The ethics of whether or not to use a terminated pregnancy for experiments is one people don’t want to face. Many people are actively against the research being carried out, due to the location where the stem cells are obtained. ------- So being able to clone human embryos for stem cells would mean we wouldnt have to use aborted foetuses anymore. I'd rather use a laboratory-created foetus for research than some baby that a mother didn't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by Anakin_Solo im going to annoy a lot of people here, and watch below as people start calling me crazy and weirdo... But i dont care! Religon told us to belive that US "man", is the creation of GOD. fair enough, But Did GOD create the Dinosaurs ? if GOD didnt create the Dinos, WHO did? evolution? freak accident? meteor hitting the earth with Alien lifeforms on it? MARS had life on it long before we did. i really belive that, and its only time thaT WILL prove me right. i have a saying, Life on Earth is not a miracle, Life on Mars is... Our PAST, and future is out there people, in SPACE. It is TOO vast to have us belive WE "GODS IMAGE" are the only living beings with intelligence. 2000 years before Jesus was born Man lived in Africa, look at the evolution of mankind, it changes, adapted, WHY? if we are perfect? why did it change? Did GOD say "oops made a mistake with this one" I belive we ARE a creation of Cloning, not of GOD but from an Alien race of men. Long time ago they could have left us here, on Earth as life was formed. maybe MARS was dying... and we came here, but our intelligence and understanding is baffling me? You can mock me all you want, but as you read this ^, sit back and think.... just think of the planets that COULD have life out there... OH cloning, didnt take us long to perfect that did it? Did aliens really land @ Roswell? are they helping man? What other inovations are going to change our lives for ever... So...where did the aliens come from? lmao @ STTCT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin_Solo Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 MARS ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by STTCT did we learn nothing from Jurassic Park??? If scientists got their hands on dinosaur dna, you honestly think a movie is going to stop them? Hell no... They'd whip them suckers up faster than you could say "I-thinky-saw-us rex"... Besides... don't you want to see what colour dinosaur skin really is? And anakin, that dying planet, run and hide on earth theory... Isn't that the basis of that shocking sci fi? what was it called.... the one where that guy got ripped apart by that twister on mars.... mission to mars was it? lol..... good times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin_Solo Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 And Gonk, we are all told that life outside EARTH is false. people laugh at you for saying things like that, and yet Water has been found on TWO moons of one of the planets? Cant member which one, might be pluto. SO i belive Life started out there, somewhere..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by Anakin_Solo if GOD didnt create the Dinos, WHO did? evolution? In a word.... yes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by Anakin_Solo And Gonk, we are all told that life outside EARTH is false. people laugh at you for saying things like that, and yet Water has been found on TWO moons of one of the planets? Cant member which one, might be pluto. SO i belive Life started out there, somewhere..... Anakin, don't get me wrong... I'm a strong believer that there's got to be something out there. It's an almost infinite universe. There's other suns with other planets, and yes, ice has been found on the moons on Jupiter. Maybe there's life out there that's been evolving for billions of years. maybe they killed themselves, maybe they've travelled this far out of their way. Maybe there's still life yet to evolve. Perhaps on a distant planet there's a primordial soup bubbling away right now. We won't know in our lifetime. We won't have the transportation capabilities to explore that far that quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin_Solo Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 so tell me Gonk, what is evolution explain it in English? is it a force? GOD? Mother Nature? or is it LIFE addapting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Evolution is life's way of saying "Somehow, you were born with this extra thingymajig........ this makes you better than them. They will die, you will flourish. But they may not die. They may stay the same. You may just go off on another tangent to them" Basically, it's like the whole saddam personality deal. Your environment determines who you are, but in this case, it takes a generation or 100 for even a minute difference to occur. Evolution is just about how all animals and plants came from a single soupy proteinal existance a few billion years ago. Evolution is all about chance, adaptation and variation. There's 2 types of evolution theory. Lamarkian evolution and Darwinian Evolution. Lamarkian evolution has almost been totally disregarded. Lamark's theory was that necessity was the fundemental base of evolution. For example, giraffes had short necks, but because they needed them to reach higher leaves, they suddenly happened a few generations down the line. Basically, evolution happens because they need other stuff was his theory. Darwin said evolution happens because by biological fluke, some giraffes are taller than others. They will eat more, and therefore survive better than the shorter ones. Then, by chance and variation, some might be slighty taller again. These ones will survive and flourish. Like pests becoming resistant to DDT or a bacteria strain becoming resistant to antibiotics.. The stronger survive and multiply. Survival of the fittest my friend... but back onto cloning.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff38 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I am sure there are already cloned humans somewhere on Earth. Who cares? I remember when test tube babies came around in the 80s. All the usual doom sayers said the same things. Loss of dignity, end of individualism strange and evil doings most certainly! Now there are over 30,000 living all over the world and nobody cares. Should we do away with them because they were not born like you? Same thing will happen with cloning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 u know i was just reading on cnn....you know those Raliegn people believe sorta wat u believe Anakin. THE RAELIAN MOVEMENT Founded: 1973, France Founder: Claude Vorilhon, who took the name Rael; his book is "The Final Message." Basic tenet: The old Hebrew phrase Elohim -- usually translated as a name for God -- should have been interpreted as a reference to non-Earthlings "from the sky." These entities are, Raelians say, responsible for the creation of life on Earth. Membership: The organization says it has some 40,000 members worldwide, with the highest concentrations in France, Canada and Japan. Outside researchers have suggested the membership may be smaller. Source: University of Virginia's New Religious Movements source from cnn... read here Clone story so...um are you from france... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Oooooh, and look out, it's coincidence central here tonight, because if you look cloesly, and rearrange some letters, you can see that "Raelians" is just an anagram of "Ar Aliens" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 oooo and 2003-1337 = 666 the world is going down in clones and nukes this year. we are doomed. I just merely wanted to say that these cloning people that claim to have cloned the first human (EVE) also believe in the alien's gave us life. But I agree with the poster who asked...and who gave the aliens life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-s/<itzo- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Cjais why do you always feel to correct other people's opinions. this is not a debate. this thread is clearly base on opinions. my opinions might not agree with yours but it makes perfect sense to me. comman man, be open minded and be a little bit of understanding here. i'm not tryin to compete with you, i'm just voicing out my views. can't you just respect my beliefs cuz nothing that you will say will change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 This ceased to be a debate when people stopped using rational thought. Talk about souls and whatnot has no place in a rational debate. If you want this to be a debate, leave your religious "facts" far out of this. Now, if you're so concerned about the overpopulation -- Abortions, birth control, condoms. I'm not correcting your opinions. I'm pointing out that it is your beliefs, your religion that hinders scientific progress which might save people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 so we should make clones...and support abortion. Let's kill off humans that are made the normal way and replace them with some clones. Excuse me but how many children out there do not have homes? How many are aborted? And you guys want some clones. Take care of the people who are already out there before you start creating new clone ones. Like I asked before...why do we need clones??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 STTCT: I AM AGAINST REPRODUCTIVE CLONING. Get it? I am not against therapeutic cloning. Huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 phew just think...if u said things so clearly as that - people will actually read your posts! ah don't take it so personally....i was refering to others that posted in this as well. I am for cloning for the whole...organ thing...is that thereputic cloning? I can see a "need" for this. But the whole....lets make another Jane Doe to replace the other Dead Jane Doe...is madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin_Solo Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Cjais some people out their will use their financial powers to BUY this service... and to be fair to them, so be it... is one Cloned human going to end my life? are we all domed to EVE? dont think so. so lets leave this alone.... Oh im from Scotland not France.... and yes i do belive we are a CLONE of aliens.... something is not.... ah forget it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 if we are clone of aliens...why do we come in all different races, colors, etc. I guess you could say the same about adam and eve...but seriously.... I believe in aliens too. But I certainly maintain the strong belief aliens did not come down here and give us life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by STTCT phew just think...if u said things so clearly as that - people will actually read your posts! I prefer to give detailed reasons for my opinions, exactly so people don't get them mixed up. I actually stated specifically that I see no point in reproductive cloning. But therapeutic cloning (stem cell cloning) is another matter. ah don't take it so personally....i was refering to others that posted in this as well. Sorry, it looked as if you were hunting me for saying I like the idea of birth control. And that I happened to like the idea of one type of cloning. I reacted when I thought you couldn't see the difference between the two. I am for cloning for the whole...organ thing...is that thereputic cloning? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-s/<itzo- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 thats not what i meant, man. please don't get it twisted. when i was talking about souls there was no religious meaning meant by it. i'm not even that religious, if you're concerned. if you carefully read what i posted i'm all for the technology part. you know to get get rid of birth defects, viruses and for organ replacement/spinal regeneration, etc... but as far as having clone of yourself that's what i oppose. its like humans are trying play as GOD which seems farfetched to me. its not our place, its tampering with natural creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by STTCT if we are clone of aliens...why do we come in all different races, colors, etc. I guess you could say the same about adam and eve...but seriously.... That there are different races of humans is clearly the result of evolution. If God made us, how come he didn't make us all in his image? Idiocy to me. UV rays are dangerous. But they also serve to create vitamin D. So, black people are black because they get a lot of UV rays where they're adapted to live, and white people are white because they don't get much. This all fits together because UV rays are both a blessing and a curse, logically we should all be black if UV rays didn't do anything good at all. Note: I do not want all blacks deported to Africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- when i was talking about souls there was no religious meaning meant by it. [...] but as far as having clone of yourself that's what i oppose. its like humans are trying play as GOD which seems farfetched to me. its not our place, its tampering with natural creation. This is contradictory. You're using the excuse that we shouldn't play Gods, while at the same time stating that there's no religious meaning meant by it. The last paragraph is not a rational argument, and even if there's no religious intent behind it (which I somehow doubt), it still has no place in a debate. And debates are per definition rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 no I wasn't upset about the b/c thing. Actually I thought you brought up a great point. Why clone people when there are so many people out there already who don't have homes. Like skitz said...its tampering with natural creation bringing back peoples long lost loved ones. I mean not to mention over-population. i mean...i know i'd feel badly very badly if someone close to me died. i mean yes..but i wouldn't want to bring them back to life ie through a clone. People die for a reason sometimes...whether it be natures way of keeping population down...or god...or just cuz...its a natural way controlling population. ah..i'm tired. I'm going to stop now. I'm probably not making sense anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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