=A= discussion nr.2: Money

[Wraith 8]

Like i said in the "=A= discussion nr.1: Abbreviation" this is also a thread of discussion.

 

This thread is about how we are going to get around with the money we earn.

 

Now Gaalgoth and I (helmet to ) have talked about this.

and i think there are some options for us.

First i want to say.. that i dont think we shouls put every last credit you earn into the PA... cause... well.. you have to have something for yourself. but ill put it in the options.

 

Option number 1:

Every credit you make will go into the Associates PA bank acount!

 

Option number 2:

50% Of every credit you make on ONE job goes into the Associates back account!

 

Option number 3:

20% Of every credit you make on ONE job goes into the Associates back account!

 

Option number 4:

Every week you donate 20% of your entire PROFIT into the Associates Bank account!

 

Option number 5:

Every month you donate 20% of your entire PROFIT into the Associates bank account!

 

Option number 6:

Every week you donate an amount of credits to the Associates bank account depending on how much you earned that week!

if you earned:

10 credits that week you donate 2

20 credits that week you donate 5

50 credits that week you donate 15

100 credits that week you donate 30

150 credits that week you donate 50

200 credits that week you donate 80

500 credits that week you donate 150

1000 credits that week you donate 300

2000 credits that week you donate 500

5000 credits that week you donate 1000

10000 credits that week you donate 2500

(remember, i made these numbers up by thinking what would be fair.)

 

I think these are the options available to us. If you think you have another one that would be better than the one i listed, please post that option.

 

On a side note, Lord Helmet has been chosen to be the bank manager of our PA! he will control it and he will keep tabs on every credit you donate and see what you can take out of it.

 

Gaalgoth? please sticky this thread

 

-Wraith 8-

[Jan Gaarni]

Whatever you people decide. I'm not known as the math wiz.

[Thew Rydur]

I said 20% a week. That way the PA would have a steady income, not just a lump some at the beiginning (or end) of the month.

[swediot=)]

just my opinon here the percentages are not fair .... because if one guy ok...... say that wraith earns 20 credits and i earn ten ..... then i would only have to give 2 credits where as wraith would have to give 4 which i think is not fair.. what do you guys think

[Jan Gaarni]

Not really, cause you have 8 Cr left, but Wraith have 16. Still twice as much as you have.

 

It is as fair as you can get it. If there was a set amount, then it would be unfair.

Ex.: While you have to give 2 Cr (20% of your own pocket), Wraith also gives 2 Cr, but that's only 10% of his pocket. You follow me so far?

Now that's unfair.

Why should you, who have less, have to pay more than the guy who has more?!?

[Lord Helmet]

Now, what I think is that...You should have 20% given a week r month gotta se hwo profits work...Then we we shall see..Thenunder certian circum stances involving a depression lol...we use the special circumstance option...where you either must temporairily pay more or less....read my sig...its true

[Mnalar]

Just my two credits fer consideration :

First I understand the need n benefit for contributions.

Which is the right method? hmmmmm.

Let us recognize that there will be primarly two different gaming styles, 1. a gamer that is dedicated to aquiring items, uber house, uber items, uber shop all thru credits. 2. Gamer that is dedicated to aquiring uber skills, n power thru combat n experience.

each gamer will have the same level of satisfaction, just different.

 

A few qustions:

How does/will the banker know how much you have made? is it the honour system ?

If so can honestly reporting your income credits so that the association can take the proper cut become a problem?

Would this method require alot of effort that may take the banker away from their gaming time?

 

Since we are talking percentages of income, it is best n more commonly know as a tax.

the idea of eg: 20 percent tax is that, yes some people will make less and therefore they have less, and yes some people will make more, and have more. but a middle ground is hoped to be stuck. However any goverment supporting this system has two problems.

1. trying to motivate low contributors to do more to contribute more.

2.chasing around and policing high levels of contributers, eg: IRS

 

My gaming style is a combination of both so I would be okies for either one.

May I suggest a method that is easy to monitor, requires low level of effort, and fair regardless of gaming style.

A membership fee to " The Association" to be paid weekly or monthly. The amount cant truely be decided untill we are in game and have an understanding of the value in a credit,

1 credit= $10

1 credit= $100 n so on.

 

What is great is how the collective of "The Assosiation" is hammering out many of the details that will allow us to be a successful community in game.

[swediot=)]

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni

Not really, cause you have 8 Cr left, but Wraith have 16. Still twice as much as you have.

 

It is as fair as you can get it. If there was a set amount, then it would be unfair.

Ex.: While you have to give 2 Cr (20% of your own pocket), Wraith also gives 2 Cr, but that's only 10% of his pocket. You follow me so far?

Now that's unfair.

Why should you, who have less, have to pay more than the guy who has more?!?

 

but i wouldnt have to pay more id have to pay the same

[Zendjir]

but i wouldnt have to pay more id have to pay the same

 

He means a higher percentage Swediot. that means the poor guy pays comparitively more than the rivh guy. That is unfair indeed.

 

However I don't think a tax system would work, you can't control it. Someone could say that the made 100 instead of the 1000 that he really made. Who could ever know that he is lying?

 

I think that an other system is needed, I might have a god idea:

 

- Everyone pays a standard weekly or monthly fee, a standard amount that even a relatively poor guy can pay.

- For every building or vehicle that the player owns he pays an amount of money per week/month.

- Every member can purchase several "PA-privileges", like extra storage room in a PA facility, monthly free pass to a PA controlled spaceport, places to build inside the PA-city, etc. For these privileges a weekly/monthly pay has to be paid.

 

What do you think of it, lemme know.

[Mnalar]

Also for consideration we might try looking at taxing the character based on their level. Someone of higher advancements usually has more means to earn more credits.

[Jan Gaarni]

but i wouldnt have to pay more id have to pay the same

Ok, slightly different scenario then.

 

The weekly taxation of the members are set to 200 Cr.

 

You have just managed to spink and save up 200 Cr the past week. This you would now have to pay to the Association.

 

Wraithy here on the otherhand has managed to make 1 000 000 Cr and pays his 200.

 

Both of you has made this out of nothing.

 

He is still left with 999 800 Cr, while you are as broke as anyone can get.

Still sounds fair?

[swediot=)]

seems fair to me because he would have wroked harder than me so he should be rewarded

[Thew Rydur]

Yeah, but maybe Wraith has more skills and can make more money. Then maybe some of Wraiths money can go to you through the PA so you can make as much as him.

[Ingrown]

I smell communism in the air...

[Ingrown]

I say we run a socialist type of system. I live in the United States, so I may not so much as you Europeans, but it seems to work for you guys.

[Mnalar]

unfortunetly we arent going to have a solution that will accomadate everyone, however this is a democratic discussion and everyone gets to be heard, and all sides will be considered.

I'm also sure that what ever the fee/tax is it will be fair and realistic. we are a few days away from the launch of SWG, so we have plenty to time to sleep on this issue as well as others.

so far I have to say I'm excited about the thought that everyone is putting into the issues, and also that the thoughts are not ego, or selfishly based.

 

Mnalar

[swediot=)]

Originally posted by Ingrown

I smell communism in the air...

 

sniff sniff COUGH COUGH

 

well atleast were having discussion here so its not a dictatorship anyway

 

but serious i dont know why but i really dont like this percentage thing

[Mnalar]

Quote: Jan Gaari

 

"You have just managed to spink and save up 200 Cr the past week. This you would now have to pay to the Association.

 

Wraithy here on the otherhand has managed to make 1 000 000 Cr and pays his 200.

 

Both of you has made this out of nothing.

 

He is still left with 999 800 Cr, while you are as broke as anyone can get.

Still sounds fair? "

 

Okies how about a 20 percent tax rate in the same situation

Wraithy would now pay 200 000 credits

The other would pay 40 credits

 

hmmmm, prolly wont be long before wraithy starts to ask why he is paying 200 000 compared to 40, and what is worse is the more he hones his skills the more he is going to pay.

[Wraith 8]

@ Mnalar: I surely hope all of you are honarble? arent you? cause then i would like you all to leave now .

 

i mean come on... im basing this whole system on trust. im putting my (game) life on all of you to protect me / help me.

so where would our PA be without that trust in its members.

 

Ofcourse Helmet cant see if you did give the percentage ot what ever we choose... but i hope i can count on everybody's hoonesty on this cant i?

 

So far i havent voted on a system. i havent even looked at the result so far. im going with what ever you guys decide.

 

 

But agree on it will yah

[Jan Gaarni]

Okies how about a 20 percent tax rate in the same situation

Wraithy would now pay 200 000 credits

The other would pay 40 credits

 

hmmmm, prolly wont be long before wraithy starts to ask why he is paying 200 000 compared to 40, and what is worse is the more he hones his skills the more he is going to pay.

I never said it was 100% fair, I said it is as fair as you can get it.

The only thing fairer than that is if noone payed.

[swediot=)]

well i guess so but to put a tax everyweek is abit extreme it should be more like verymonth and we could have a system where the more you earn the smaller percentage of your earnings you have to pay .....

 

say 1 guy ears 10 in one month and the other earns 20 the 10 dude would pay say 20% where as the 20 dude only pays 15% or something like that .... that could be an option couldnt it?

[Zendjir]

No Swediot, it would not. If we should go with a % tax, the amount should be the same for everyone. However, I'm not a very strong supporter of a % tax. Wraith says that it is all based on trust, I want a bit more assurance than that.

 

Someone mentioned basing the amount you pay on your level, that won't work....cuz there are no levels. But it would be a good solution to base the tax on your ingame "status". This status can be measured in the ways I have mentioned before, but other options are what kind of skills someone has (someone with money skills paysmore than medics) or howmuch influence they have in the PA (a mayor pays more than a simple member).

 

There are different options for taxing:

A % Tax option based on trust will be fair IF everyone follow the taxing rules strictly. It's based on trust. That would mean that every member has to keep a record of his income and be totally honest. Howmany players actually keep detailed records of their ingame info (ie. income) and are totally honest. I'm honest, but I dont keep records. So this system would be uncontrollable and often unfair.

 

A tax option based on status will be fair IF:

- The status of someone can be checked (This is possible by status indicators; Number of houses/ skills/ number of NPC's/ Etc.)

- The amounts of money your have to pay for that status is fair, so that most people will be willing to pay.

Can a status be checked? Yeah, to a certain extent; some indicators of a player may remain hidden and some kind of recordkeeping is neccesary (however, much less than the % option). The amounts that have to be paid can be decided democraticly. This option isn't perfect, but I think it's better than the % option.

 

When making a decision, think about the GAME, not real life. In real life the % tax option works perfectly...it's won't work ingame because there is no control.

[Wraith 8]

Well Helmet is our Bank manager... and he will look into the thing of who payes his tribute.

 

if you keep paying your tribute as a member.. you can use the money like a back account... ok .. we dont put interest on it ... but you can use it

[swediot=)]

Originally posted by Zendjir

No Swediot, it would not. If we should go with a % tax, the amount should be the same for everyone. However, I'm not a very strong supporter of a % tax. Wraith says that it is all based on trust, I want a bit more assurance than that.

 

 

ok i was just putting it up there as a possibility. If there were accountants in this game it would be so much easier ...... see this is why i was saying that we should all pay the same amount because then no one can be dishonest about how much they have earned if we just set an amount we could run it as a test for like 1 or 2 weeks and then balance according to how much profit everyone has left because we will probably need to do some balancing anyway i suppose just as the devs need to do balancing in the beta testing

[Zendjir]

Well Helmet is our Bank manager... and he will look into the thing of who payes his tribute.

 

Ok Lord Helmet....let us know how you want to do it. And Wraith...he doesnt decide it 100%, we are associates, not a dictatorship.