Reborn Outcast Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by munik Yeah, no sh*t. Thanks for pointing that out. Read the passage I listed, then read the post before mine which I was refering to, then re-read the post I made the first time, then, very slowly, go back and repeat the process. Now, the part where he says its a fact that it doesn't say whale in the bible, when in fact it does say whale in the bible...yeah, you know the post I'm talking about, you're probaly re-reading it right now...well, THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Fer christs sake, he said the Bible, not the Book of Jonah. Don't get all uppity and make put you back in your place again. It embarasses both of us. Now maybe you should take your own advice: Ok now I don't want to start something but.... FROM THE NIV BIBLE: (This is the verse you pointed out) Matthew 12:40 - For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So... yea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munik Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Well, I referenced the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Apparently, the Bible says whatever you want it to say, as long as you have the right version. Aside from the absurdity of going in and surviving inside the stomach of any animal, I don't even think there is a fish that has a stomach large enough to contain an adult man. So, if it's a whale, that's at least partially feasible, but if it's only a fish, unfeasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 I was referencing to the King James Version. Also, stop arguing so aggresively, guys. No reason to hate eachother over a simple disagreement on something religious. Too much of that is already in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Ivan Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais What the Bible says is irrelevant, as it cannot prove itself. God cannot be measures or observed, meaning there's no reason to believe in him. The fairy tale of Noah, while uplifting, is simply not true and can thus be discarded except as a moral reminder (which we can easily get from other, less false sources). You can't survive in a whale's stomach, no matter what the Bible tells you, making it in fact dangerous to believe, as you'll be more inclined to wait for God to come to the rescue. There's no air. There's no water. There's a very strong acid in the stomach that will immediately start to decompose and digest you. Im sorry C'jais but you obviously heard only what you wanted to hear in my little speech earlier. I explained that the Bible is a set of parables (in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN). What im trying to get at is, well, it doesnt matter if there was a whale or not, or if Jonah would have died inside. The story of Jonah is meant to teach us something! Not revel over the fact of how impossible it is. As for God not being measurable. Just because God isnt physically able to be measured does not mean God isnt there. That is a small-minded belief almost like people believing in atoms. "If I can't see it, it's not there." Ancient people mocked Democritus for believing in small particles that he called "atmos" that we now call atoms. AND WHAT DID THE PEOPLE LAUGHING AT DEMOCRITUS BELIEVE IN? In the Phlogistan theory, which is: A theory stating everything has a substance called "Phlagistos" makes the objects flammable or not. Now, i may have gone off the beaten track a little, but God doesnt have to be measurable at all to understand God's presence. God gives us something to believe in. We can't believe the government will always be there. We can't have faith in George W. Bush. But we can have faith in God so we can have some aim and direction in our lives. On a side note, all that stuff about Democritus and the Phlogistan theory is true. Go look it up, before you really think I am Crazy Ivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan Im sorry C'jais but you obviously heard only what you wanted to hear in my little speech earlier. I explained that the Bible is a set of parables (in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN). Ah - "that probably did NOT happen". Good, very good. Go tell that to every single Christian on this board, as they obviously appear ignorant to this fact. What im trying to get at is, well, it doesnt matter if there was a whale or not, or if Jonah would have died inside. The story of Jonah is meant to teach us something! Not revel over the fact of how impossible it is. And the same goes for the dreaded Genesis? I pray it does. As for God not being measurable. Just because God isnt physically able to be measured does not mean God isnt there. For all intents and purposes, it does. What cannot be measured is completely irrelevant. There's no reason to believe something exists if there's nothing to prove it does. If I waltzed around and postulated that there's a T-rex in my backyard and that everyone is really being mindcontrolled by evil, pink monkies from a far away planet, most people would likely demand some proof of that assertion. Clearly, the T-rex one would be quickly rooted out, as anyone can see it isn't there (unless it's being invisible and immaterial, of course). But the monkey one, that's tougher. There's no way to prove that we are not being mindcontrolled by monkies from Pluto, but there's also no reason to believe we are. When there's no proof, there's no reason. That is a small-minded belief almost like people believing in atoms. "If I can't see it, it's not there." FYI, atoms can be measured. Ancient people mocked Democritus for believing in small particles that he called "atmos" that we now call atoms. But the ancient people made the right conclusion, regardless of whether Democritus was right - there's no evidence to prove the assertion that everything is made up of small particles. At least, not at that time. This is really the same analogy as the one about the flat earth, and I already spent many paragraphs disproving that one. However, it's important to remember that ones laughing at him weren't any better themselves as they believed in an equally worthless theory. There was no reason to believe in any of that crap, so the most rational stance they could take at that time was to simply dismiss any sort of theory dealing with things that cannot be measured or evidenced. In short: there's absolutely no to go and make things up that cannot be empirically proven. God gives us something to believe in. Why oh why should we believe in something in the first place? I'm doing fine, and I don't believe in anything at all. On a side note, all that stuff about Democritus and the Phlogistan theory is true. Go look it up, before you really think I am Crazy Ivan. I knew the story. But it being true still does nothing for it being a very, very flawed analogy. But let it be known that you can believe in whatever you want. In fact, I find your views on the Bible extremely sympathetic. They're way more advanced, and way better, than the brutish, take-no-prisoners approach with a completely literal interpretation that's all too often found here. I like it. But you should also understand that you can never use the Bible or "God" as an argument for corrupting the school system and bending, even outright ignoring facts. We cannot risk the future of education to simple, petty beliefs, no matter which religion they come from. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Ivan Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I totally respect your truth and knowledge. I never intend to preach or make more people Christian. It's more important to lay down the facts and let people decide. I just wanted to explain in a drawn out way, that not all Christians are hypocrites and vice versa. Even Jewish people can be hypocrites! Hah.......but anyways, I don't have a problem with non-believers. Most of my friends have never stepped inside a church. A ton of celebrities thank God for awards but do nothing to show their gratitude besides shout out his name at an award ceremony. But I cannot stand Christians who use the Bible as a shield. Enough said, my fingers are numb heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 i cant believe some of the stuff that has been said on this thread!!!! it sounds like some christians are even doubting the bible, why?????? like i said to C'jais before, when u say the bible isnt true, or a part of the bible, u are reallyy calling God a liar!! WHY WOULD God SAY HE DID STUFF IF HE DIDNT!!! SOME PEOPLE DONT SEEM TO GET IT, WHY WOULD God LIE ABOUT HIMSELF, OR LET HIS PEOPLE READ A BOOK THAT ISNT TRUE!!!! look crazy ivan basically you kinda *gave Satan a point* by saying the bible or parts of the bible are not true. ok the parables Jesus told were stories he made up, like the one about the seeds, and then the one about the father and son, things like that, those were the examples! everything else happend, the whole book isnt a parable or a group of parables! So are u going to tell me there is no Elijah or Moses, or what about king David or Solomon, Samson, and Job! God goes went through normal people, like Moses, to write down all that happend so we could learn. why would God tell a huge lie? huh? doesnt sound right to me! God isnt a liar, the bible is true, and thats all need to say right now, yeah ive been sort of quiet in this thread unlike the last one, maybe i need to start preaching again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 God didn't write the Bible. Use the top of your head, man. Please don't commence any preaching or bullying to other users. And don't even start calling one of the more sympathetic Christians in here a Satanist (I know you didn't, but watch it). Do you believe the Genesis is real as well? It's a parable? Check the "History of our universe" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais God didn't write the Bible. Use the top of your head, man. Please don't commence any preaching or bullying to other users. And don't even start calling one of the more sympathetic Christians in here a Satanist (I know you didn't, but watch it). Do you believe the Genesis is real as well? It's a parable? Check the "History of our universe" thread. yeah i got lil' mad, but after playing a quick game of JKII, im over it. ok God, sorta did write it, he (or the Holy Spirit) went through the prophets and told them what to write, God didnt physically write it but he had control of what was written, and read today. Bullying...lol...i still dont get what u mean by that....God called christians to tell his word, we are to go to all areas of the world and tell it. dont tell me what to do... and dont acuse me of bullying people, hey i didnt hold a gun top anyones head, and tel them to believe in God, did I? no if they or u dont want to read what i say then dont come to the thread or just skip what i have to say. look, i agree with some of the stuff ivan said, but that part about the bible or parts of it being stories that are made up, i totally disagree with..... man dont let the devil confuse you! I dont see why God would sit there and have people wright things about him that were not true, God doesnt like lies....God doesnt do any evil, by saying parts things in the bible are not true u ARE calling God a liar, or saying he isnt real... i wont let anyone say that, God spoke to Jonah and told him to go to that city but he didnt... things happend.... in the end Jonah went to the city, by saying this is just a made up story to give us an example u are saying God didn really tell Jonah to preach his word in the city, you are saying God lied about that, God doesnt lie, name one lie God told! by saying he gave satan a point i meant that sorta screwed up what witnessing has been done because u said the bible isnt true, thats just what every athiest and non-believer wants to hear, now u have given them a reason not to turn to God, just what the devil wants, he dont want anyone to go to God, its a war, a war for our souls, the more the devil drags down with him the more he laughs at God. now they have there excuse, any non-believer who reads this thread can say "well a christian said the bible isnt true, so why should i believe it" yeah i believe in Genesis, the bible isnt here to give us a history lesson, its here to teach us, not to explain every little detail of life. look God said it and it happend, hes God he can do what he wants, if he says its right im with him. its that simple. and none of u can turn me away from God. or tell me something isnt real that i know is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Ivan Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Earlier C'jais was explaining how logic can defy the boundaries set by some things said in the bible. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't matter if Jonah could or could not live in a whale shark (I saw this video where it was a whale shark ) I was pretty much agreeing with you Luke that its meant to tell us something. I am a believer like you! The Trinity--God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are things im trying to clear up for people. When you say I am calling God a liar hurts. Mostly because I love him so. But you have to realize that the "Bible Commitee" as my CHURCH called it, decided what books would go in the bible and which ones written by the prophets wouldn't. I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days. I never meant to denounce the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan Earlier C'jais was explaining how logic can defy the boundaries set by some things said in the bible. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't matter if Jonah could or could not live in a whale shark (I saw this video where it was a whale shark ) I was pretty much agreeing with you Luke that its meant to tell us something. I am a believer like you! The Trinity--God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are things im trying to clear up for people. When you say I am calling God a liar hurts. Mostly because I love him so. But you have to realize that the "Bible Commitee" as my CHURCH called it, decided what books would go in the bible and which ones written by the prophets wouldn't. I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days. I never meant to denounce the Bible. im very sorry... ivan i didnt mean it to hurt you. it meant a lot to me for u to say this: I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days. it isnt the first time ive said this to people, i told that to C'jais a few months ago, (december i think) im just saying if u say the bible isnt true that means God lied in the bible, and so that means u did say that, if thats what u meant in the thing u said Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan (in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN). i guess maybe i took it the wrong way. what i read in the bible is what happend. thats all i need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Ok C'jais im not goin to argue anymore....the bible syas christians are not supposed to argue about the bible with other people, im leaving this thread and wont come back....because everytime i or anyone else tries to tell the word of God in any thread, C'jais is there and always tries to start something, look C'jais i dont care if u call me a bully, or if cuss or say whatever about me, (not saying u have). i dont care because im proud to receive persecution for God, Christ, and The Holy Spirit. without God, i dont know what would have happend to me today.... who knows? i have nothing else to live for exept him, i keep living because i still have work to do, i still have to tell the word of God, i have to tell that Jesus died for us, and God will forgive us, i dont want to see anyone go to Hell, but people who dont know God will find out one day, when they bow down to him and say to Christ Jesus you are the Lord. yeah that will be an amazing day when Satan bows to christ, and says you are the Lord. Just remember non-believers youve heard it here on this thread, and on many other threads. Youve also heard it on tv, the radio, on the internet, you know about God so there is no excuse not to turn to him! Its your choice, one day we will see who is right. anyone who does decide to turn to God by reading this or any other thread is free to PM me any questions they have, ill do my best to answere them. C YA later Lukeskywalker1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I'm a christian too, and I don't want to see anyone go to Hell, but C'Jais is jst trying to argue his side of the case. No need to get all huffy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadfish Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Originally posted by obi-wan13 I'm a christian too, and I don't want to see anyone go to Hell, but C'Jais is jst trying to argue his side of the case. No need to get all huffy about it. I had to come back and give credit to Obi for sticking up for C'jais. Having been in on the thread earlier I know that was not easy We should cling to our beliefs but still respect others rights to cling to theirs. Using the bible as ammuntion against a non believer is kinda vain. I believe the bible is the word of God, but if someone does not believe that then quoting it has no effect. I know you are gonna say "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17) which is true if someone is pursuing faith. As far as the parable vs reality....Jesus did use parables as analogies for christian living (read Matthew 13:10,11) Chapter 16 of Luke starts with a parable. But the story of Lazarus (not the Lazarus raised from the dead, the one at the gate of the rich man) in verse 19 is not a parable because he names the person. Lastly, for the multiple arguements like "I am god, I am right, I wrote it down so why not believe me? what is the difference? I believe one version earlier was called C'jaisism. Just to use that as example.... If something that C'jais wrote was still around thousands of years from now, hmmm... it deserves at least a look. And if somehow reading that made me feel the actual presence of C'jais, hmmm...maybe there is something to it. And if pursuing that presence led me to see many miracles, and was powerful enough to make me (and millions of others) totally change to a new way of life, how could anyone deny C'jaisism? Many would say "Oh, C'jais was just a man, a moderator on a thread about religion" and would slander him and those who believed in him. But those who did read his writings and did FEEL and get proof through personal revelation would still believe and share it with other willing listeners, and maybe...just maybe make a post about C'jaisism on a Gaming website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echuu Shen-Jon Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 I'm a true Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 I am a christian, but not out of choice. Seeing things in my life as I've grown up and watching how our world works today and what happens in it (most recently, the imposing war with Iraq), I have very strong beliefs against the existence of a God. God made this world, and he has the power to change things here. i don't believe in the fact that us good-natured people must be left to watch evil reign over us on Earth. I actually went to church for the first time in a long while back on Christmas Eve, and a part of the Vicor's end prayer really made me think. She said something like: "And we must thank you O Lord for how lucky we are in this time and place. We thank you for everything you have given us, and how lucky we are to recieve your love and kindness." And I beg the question here: Is this the same God who provided and loved the thousands of innocent people dying in third world countries right this very second? If we have a God, I don't believe he is at all merciful. Why should we just be the ones who recieve everything from God? I don't believe a word of it. Man worked, fed and brought destruction down upon himself. And when this world we live in is finally destroyed, don't blame God: we can only blame ourselves. I know it may be a diffucult concept to grasp, and a frightening one at that, but I believe and have accepted that we are all alone. There is no greater power out there to help us; it is only us. I would really like to believe that at the end of all of this, there will be someone to help us in our time of need, you don't know how much I wish that. But there is no one. That is why I don't go to church, and instead spend time with the people I love and care about. To me, that is more important than spending time praying for a miracle. Miracles don't exist; only coincidences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Originally posted by Darklighter Miracles don't exist; only coincidences. Ever seen the movie "Signs"? The last scene is pretty powerful in explaining how there are no coincidences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Ever seen the movie "Signs"? The last scene is pretty powerful in explaining how there are no coincidences. That's what I was thinking about when I said that:)Which proves my point even further...UFOs and extra terrestrials, another unproven mystery...like God, IMO. You know maybe God, and aliens and UFOs do exist, or maybe they don't. It all depends on whether you think spiritually or scientifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 No I wasnt reffering to the aliens at all. Its just that, all that stuff that was there that was used to defeat it was not coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalorian54 Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Hey Darklighter. If you don't believe in God how can you be a christian? A christian must believe the Bible, because that is what the teachings of those who founded christianity taught. you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules. like you can't be a professional hockey player and not be on a professional team. GET IT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTeddyPaul Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Originally posted by Mandolorian54 A christian must believe the Bible, because that is what the teachings of those who founded christianity taught. you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules. And who do you believe founded Christianity? Sure you can. You are just a bad one. BigTeddyPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Mandolorian read Darklighters first sentence. I am a christian, but not out of choice. Which means that he probably grew up in a Christian family, but never believed. Don't be so hard on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted March 16, 2003 Author Share Posted March 16, 2003 About Darklighter; being "technically" a Christian is more of a rule than an exeption. That's what this thread is about. Anyways, I was on my wife's grandmother's (85th) birthday yesterday. Most of the guests were religious (Pentecostalists). I sat there for 4½ hours listening to the speeches and songs and felt like vomiting. "Oh how God has blessed You and washed away your sins with blood, with blood that drowns the disbelievers and sucks them into the eternal flames of hell! May God Smite the wicked and bless thy with His benevolence. Ooh, we hear the grand song of the river of blooood that bursts through the lines of the sinful ones!" I have serious issues with religion, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Originally posted by Mandolorian54 you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules. like you can't be a professional hockey player and not be on a professional team. GET IT? Yes Mandolorian, I 'GET IT'. Like I said, I am not a christian out of choice. I come from a very religious family, and my parents have high expectations of me to follow in their footsteps in terms of religion. Despite the fact that I go against everything they believe in. It's not my fault, just the way I feel. And I know how you feel Luc, I have serious issues too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted March 16, 2003 Author Share Posted March 16, 2003 My advice to you Darklighter: Think about what you parents really want of you. What is the point of it all? What do they strive for? Disregard the formal nonsense. Disregard the pathos (dunno if that is a word, but...if it aint, "forgetaboutit") What is the ultimate goal of every Christian..no: every religious and sane person? >>> To be a GOOD person. That's it; A good person. A good person is patient, forgiving, kind, generous, altruistic. Does this mean that you should tell your parents to " **** " off? No. A good person is patient. A good person does not intentionally hurt the feelings of his loved ones. A good person takes a deep breath and sais: I respect your faith in god and experience of life, but if you trust me, you will let me form my own beliefs. What are *my* beliefs? I honestly don't know. The rational part of me wants to choose the path of technically believing in God just to be sure, but live my life the way my brain tells me to. That is the most intelligent way: accept god, but don't let His words interfere with you deeds. "Saved for certain", right? My other half wants to embrace God, Buddha, the holy triangle, (just a personal thingie I came up with ~15 years ago) the all-powerful Saddam and North Korea's president Kim Jong-il (or whatever) who scored 11 consecutive hole-in-ones when playing golf for the first time in his life. (take that Woods!) But seriously: if you don't force yourself to some stupid belief and let you mind roam free, you will come to the same conclusion as I have: religion insults my intelligence That's a tough thing to say, I know... but... brains (which God supposedly gave us) and religion can not live peacefully together. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all religious people are dumb. I mean...I cling on to religion simply for the sake of the good impact it has on me and I do not consider myself dumb on any standard. I question myself 24/7. If someone gives me a good reason to believe, I will. I *want* to believe because that would be good for me, but I simply can not force my mind to accept something that I can not rationally verify... I would intentionally lie to myself which would be ridiculous, hypocritical and useless. Just because I have been right all my life doesn't mean that I might not be wrong some day. (No, I'm not being egoistic, I'm just stating a fact) I realize that. (One of these days someone points out that I've made a typo or something and...well...that's about it. ) You should all read Cjais sig... it's more true than Cjais himself knows. Always question yourselves...dig deeper, that's the only way you'll find peace. Now if you excuse me, I'll go and get another beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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