Single Player ONLY Idea Thread for JKII expansion/sequel

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by txa1265

But why should I only have those weapons available to my enemies? And why should my enemies only have weapons available to me? I also strongly agree with the need for new weapons - not just different sci-fi variants on the same old weapon set, but somthing new. Think seismic charges from Ep2.

 

Good point. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to use a large variety of weapons...but perhaps you are better using some than others. So if you pick up a Gaffi stick, you could use it, but not very well. Or if you mess with unfamiliar explosive charges, there's a chance they might go off in your hand.

 

I'd like whatever comes next to give us lots of choice - the AT-ST option was gratifying in part since I hated driving the Tiger tank in MoHAA. I'd love side-plots - finding a prisoner like you found Lando, and having him ask for help, you could say 'sure' or 'sorry, bud, I have a galaxy to save!' or whatever.

 

Agreed. Small side-quests that you don't have to complete can add another dimension to the gameplay, and should offer up little rewards to make them worthwhile.

 

I'd like more power to choose to kill or not.

 

I totally agree. I want to see a return of a more moralistic type of gameplay, so you don't automatically have to shoot everything in sight. Jedi were supposed to revert to weapons as a last resort, and I see the Jedi Mind Trick (or Persuasion) as a force power that should be introduced practically from the outset (with initially limited ability), along with Speed and Jump, so you can run and hide if discovered. Really, I'd hate to see a return to starting another game in this series with no Force powers at all. For complete beginners, who are unfamiliar with Force use, you can simply offer them the chance to train at the Jedi Academy with the Luke-alike - and it should be an option, so those who've played previous games can get stuck right into the action.

 

I'm not so nice about my feelings on Unreal II ... better weapons wouldn't have saved it ... in much the same way Dark Forces and JK1 remain great games *despite* dated graphics, Unreal II is a very mediocre game *despite* tremendous graphics ...

 

Yeah, you're right, it's just an average shooter with a recycled plot. [stormtrooper voice] Move along...move along...[/stormtrooper voice]

[AKPiggott]

I agree with all this talk of NPCs and whether or not you can kill them. The only NPCs that were in JO were the droids and the Ugnaughts and they were all too few and far between.

 

Originally posted by txa1265

In short, if they could successfully meld those different genres in a way that was interesting to fans of each genre, that would be something ...

 

Not really. Unless you have an equal appreciation for each of those genres. I don't particuarly like flight sims, so X-Wing levels in mid-FPS would annoy me a bit. I've always believed the best way to maintain interest in a First Person Shooter is to add plenty of variety, among that a couple of good drivable vehicle sequences would be a bonus.

 

Originally posted by Emon

Changing to an unrelated story like that and calling it a sequel or expansion is not only illogical, it would be bad for business. When people see the words "Dark Forces" or "Jedi Knight" and Kyle Katarn on the box of a game, they are going to expect it to be closely related to the existing characters, story and saga.

 

Having said that, I would love to see a really good Star Wars FPS that doesn't focus on Kyle Katarn and not necessarily the same era as the Dark Forces games are set.

 

Originally posted by StormHammer

Where cut scenes are still important in Star Wars games is when showing events that are happening to others, and for showing space vessels etc., in flight. I thought the CGI ship sequences in Jedi Outcast were quite good...and CGI in general would have been better throughout. So, I guess I'm saying I would prefer to see CGI-rendered cut scenes in any future expansion or sequel.

 

I disagree. Game engines are getting to the point where in-game cutscenes more than suffice (look at NOLF2 and Mafia). They flow better with the stuff in-game and they allow more freedom for SP editing.

 

Originally posted by StormHammer

Keep the mix of gameplay styles...from the mini-games to the escort missions. Throw in a 'defend the base' level, like Unreal 2. And come up with some new and exciting stuff. I mean, in NOLF you had a couple of sniper levels, then you had to shoot down helicopters from a cable car...then fight off bad guys as you freefall to catch someone who has a parachute. These kinds of play styles can really break a game up from the monotony of running and gunning.

 

Agreed. The variety in NOLF made it such a bold and special game, I'm surprised the varying styles haven't since become industry standard.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by AKPiggott

Not really. Unless you have an equal appreciation for each of those genres. I don't particuarly like flight sims, so X-Wing levels in mid-FPS would annoy me a bit. I've always believed the best way to maintain interest in a First Person Shooter is to add plenty of variety, among that a couple of good drivable vehicle sequences would be a bonus.

 

... 'scuse me ... I've been taken a bit out of context. I said it would be 'something' ... I didn't like SotE all that much - it was an OK attempt at several game type, none were excellent. I think that FPS and RPG are somewhat blendable (not combinable, if you get the gist of my semantics), but other types are a distraction to the main course of a FPS.

 

I agree that by adding game modes as 'variety' rather than substance would maintain the interest. Again I mention the AT-ST compared to MoHAA's tank. I also think of the level on Doomgiver where you can shoot at Tie fighters - pure fluff, no purpose, yet I go there each and every time

 

Mike

[AKPiggott]

Sorry I got the wrong idea. Still, you summed it up pretty nicely.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by StormHammer

Good point. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to use a large variety of weapons...but perhaps you are better using some than others. So if you pick up a Gaffi stick, you could use it, but not very well. Or if you mess with unfamiliar explosive charges, there's a chance they might go off in your hand.

 

Very much agree, [Obscure Jazz Reference]like Ornette Coleman taking up violin![/Obscure Jazz Reference]. Seriously, I think that would be an excellent way to do things.

 

Agreed. Small side-quests that you don't have to complete can add another dimension to the gameplay, and should offer up little rewards to make them worthwhile.

 

I wonder what rewards ... ? Should it be effective skill points? Like a '+2 to hit' type of thing? So if you accomplish many side-tasks, meet an equal foe, and saber lock, you would win?

 

I totally agree. I want to see a return of a more moralistic type of gameplay, so you don't automatically have to shoot everything in sight. Jedi were supposed to revert to weapons as a last resort, and I see the Jedi Mind Trick (or Persuasion) as a force power that should be introduced practically from the outset (with initially limited ability), along with Speed and Jump, so you can run and hide if discovered. Really, I'd hate to see a return to starting another game in this series with no Force powers at all. For complete beginners, who are unfamiliar with Force use, you can simply offer them the chance to train at the Jedi Academy with the Luke-alike - and it should be an option, so those who've played previous games can get stuck right into the action.

 

Luke-alike, Ha ha ha. Hadn't heard him called that! I thought the guy did a reasonable job.

 

Anyway, I agree. Jedi Trials for all, training as an option. If you fail the trials, you go back to training

 

Yeah, you're right, it's just an average shooter with a recycled plot. [stormtrooper voice] Move along...move along...[/stormtrooper voice]

 

But the graphics ... they really are awesome on the right hardware ... I thought the snow on the JKII Demo was cool - but in Unreal ... I just hung around outside for a while, then said, oh well, I guess I have to keep playing

 

Mike

[txa1265]

I was looking at the Stratos strategy guide for JKII (someone posted it on a Mac usenet group), and saw the description of the Flechette as a shotgun. Interesting ... but to my earlier post, I wish I had is on Kejim, or at least Artus. I liked the shotgun in SoFII (I *know* it is overpowered, but I like it anyway) and how you get it early on in the game. That provides somee decent balance - you have people taking shots at you from too great a distance to pop them with the shotgun, but when you get near they're toast. The bowcaster is a necessity, I know. But I still wished for a 1-hit kill weapon before getting the saber.

 

Mike

[Jared]

I don't really know about any of the rumors or anything. I don't think there was anything wrong with JKII except for the Multiplayer. The MP was weak. The JK and MOTS mp I still play over the JKII one. And I wish you would start with your saber, instead of having to earn or get it.

[boinga1]

ahh ahh ahh! no MP discussion... j/k

[txa1265]

Originally posted by TK-421

<snip> And I wish you would start with your saber, instead of having to earn or get it.

 

Ignoring the MP stuff ...

 

The question of when you get the saber - and the gameplay prior to getting the saber - is one of those fundamental issues that splits players and kept down review scores ...

 

I personally like the first several levels, find them fun and challenging, but do wish I had something more powerful to take out stormies with. I certainly understand it in the context of the story.

 

I think that most people really want the saber right away in the next game.

 

Mike

[txa1265]

Stormhammer should be happy ... I have totally lost interest in *ever* finishing Unreal II (maybe I'll be bored someday ... nah, probably replay JKII again). So I eBay-ed my way into a copy of Deus Ex (I never played it - I borrowed a friend's CD, didn't run correctly on my laptop at the time, he left our company ... of well). Based on what I've done so far I have some thoughts about applying things to JKIIX / JKIII.

 

First, I really do like this game (I've just entered Hong Kong, if anyone cares), but know it won't be my favorite ever, nor likely crack my top 5 ... but will definitely be in my top 10. It is also clear (to me, anyway) that this game shows an evolutionary path from JK1.

 

So what would I take from this that I'd like to see in a JKII expansion / next version?

- Dialogue: even if it is functionally useless. Imagine the bar on Nar Shadda as an interactive discussion rather than a scripted pseudo-cutscene ... sure you eventually have to kill everyone and so on, but it would be nice to learn something from the patrons and the bartender.

- Carrying limits: I like guns, I love the saber, but I like the ability to have both ... just in case. But I think the idea of anyone carrying 15 weapons plus full loads of ammo plus supplies and maintaining full agility is a bit much. I don't think we need total realism, but I think that having to choose what to bring would make the game more interesting (and difficult for both players and programmers). Perhaps always having the saber and bryar, getting to choose a 'light' and 'heavy' weapon, and some mix of explosives and items like binocs. Something like Deus Ex or SoFI/II.

- Upgrades / Mods: I still want a 'shotgun' for JKII, like the one in SoFII, a 1-hit-killer. Perhaps rather than changing the weapon explicitly it could be done like weapon mods in Deus Ex. Imagine the second Kejim level having a 'power' mod for the Bryar that made it a 1-hit kill from close range? Or one that gave the E11 'accuracy'?!?

- Menus for actions: rather than Mind Trick being one-dimensional, wouldn't it be nice to have a choice - distract, confuse, get information, control, or whatever?

 

Obviously, much has been said about 'flexible plotlines' ala JK1 and Deus Ex. While I know that adds complexity exponentially, I would be happy with having the plot be responsive to my actions and the level of play. For instance, I meet Luke and say 'I think I met one on Bespin' about Reborn ... WTF, I met several even on 'Jedi' difficulty.

 

Just a few more thoughts ...

 

Mike

[txa1265]

Another Deus Ex thing I like is revisiting areas. I'm only halfway through the game, but feel I could go through UNATCO witth my eyes closed. I liked that with the Jedi Academy in JKII, but could have used more of it - like on-ship or something.

 

Mike

[txa1265]

OK, I finished Deus Ex. Very good game. Yet a few more comments ...

 

- As I got to the end it occurred to me that I'd never taken the dark path all the way to the end in JK1 ... I am just a light-sider by nature. I couldn't do what it took to pursue the dark path, I was morally opposed to it.

 

- I had a hard time deciding which ending to choose. I didn't feel morally attached to any of them, nor did I feel good or bad about the choices left behind.

 

- But it did make me *think* ... which is more than most games do. Take SoFII, for example ... no big surprise who the bad guy was, so just kill him and be done.

 

- I am starting to tire of games in which I reach my full potential as a player right before the game ends. I want to stretch out and enjoy the fruit of my labors. JKII was better than most in that regard - you get almost the whole final Yavin mission with close to full powers. Still ...

 

Mike

[Anakin]

Force Powers

Force Seeing/Sense Is a must, but as I will continue to banter on, this can be done now, if we had the SP SDK. So moving on from that.

 

Things that Jedi Outcast lacked, was atmosphere, there was never any apart from the Yavin Swamp, i could 'feel' like I was there, but the other levels like Nar Sharda, lack of NPC's and ships and other things going on made it quite wooden and boring.

 

The whole expansion of a level within a level is one that needs to be looked at, Jedi Outcast was at the end of the day to predicatable, you knew how to get one end of the level from the begining, there was no other way of getting around it, if there were mulitple paths and mulitple things like 'Jedi Business' that would be great. Dare I say it but Star Wars:Episode 1 Game did that

 

To be honest I cant see why a Jedi would ever have to carry around such a large amount of wepons just his lightsaber and his Blaster would be enough for me,.

 

Cutscenes, hard one to choose on, AK brings up some good points about the whole CGI thing and In game, but surely if there was goals within goals in the levels that were built maybe the cutscenes would work better.

 

Main things I hope they look at

The Expansion of Force Powers

Levels within levels.

and dare I say it support for editing it and SDK for SP/MP

[txa1265]

Nicely put!

 

I'm not so hard on the non-swamp levels, but share your criticism regarding lack of NPC's and other 'life on Nar Shadda' impacting the enjoyment of the level. [edit - as I've said before, I can live with Bespin being empty, as it seems they are always clearing that place out - TESB, also I think in one of the books. But having Nar Shadda as empty as it was, only occasional sky-cars, was the 2nd most rediculous thing ... only after SoFII's vacant Hong Kong ...!]

 

As for TPM, my neck still hurts thinking about that isometric view ... wait, I just fell over ... but the point about side-trips is very true.

 

I agree also with you on Force Sight - it was one of my first comments. I really want to come upon a door that should be locked - but isn't, and use my sense to 'have a bad feeling', but then also know what is waiting for me.

 

I think that the RPG/reward system from JK1 should be re-invented, along with the 'level in level' ideas. Let me get send on side-missions to free the security guards or rescue the trapped family, but then reward me for it in a real way. Deus Ex has me thinking more about this. Perhaps create a 4th level to Force Powers, and provide some 'points' system to put towards your powers based on solving side-tasks, exploring off-path areas ('secrets', or 'exploration bonus'), or something else. Not at the expense of the 'planned Force Upgrade' system in JKII, but as an addition.

 

Another thing to lose - level stats. It makes it more of a game and less of a story. I preferred SoFII's 're-arming' screens. You were at a base, and it was time to review your next mission objectives and grab some portable death (just add terrorists) Perhaps have missions land you in your 'meditation room' on ship, or somewhere in the Jedi Temple, or whatever.

 

I also agree with the weapons. Even in non-saber games, like SoFII, Deus Ex, MoHAA, RtCW, etc, etc, etc ... I always choose a few weapons and stick with them. I don't need 12 weapons on hand at all times. Give me a saber (always) Bryar (always), room for a light repeater (e.g. E11) and heavy weapon (missles, concussion), some TD's, and supplies.

 

I really want a good JKIIExp / JKIII. Even if that means waiting (not that I want to wait).

 

Mike

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Anakin

Force Powers

Cutscenes, hard one to choose on, AK brings up some good points about the whole CGI thing and In game, but surely if there was goals within goals in the levels that were built maybe the cutscenes would work better.

 

Main things I hope they look at

The Expansion of Force Powers

Levels within levels.

and dare I say it support for editing it and SDK for SP/MP

 

I have no problem with CGI cutscenes, and let me just say to those who want live action again - LET IT GO!!! Seriously, the expense is higher, and the game community philosophy has changed. I don't see it happening again. Ever.

 

That said, I would like fewer of the in-game scenes and more 'semi-scripted interactions'. Again I go back to the Nar Shadda bar scene - let me ask the questions and wander around rather than taking me out of things when I approach the bar.

 

I do hope they eventually do full support for editing. I would pay money (I'd actually be willing to spend ~$20 each) for Dark Forces and Jedi Knight1 (and MotS) re-done using the new engine and saber combat system.

 

Mike

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by txa1265

I do hope they eventually do full support for editing. I would pay money (I'd actually be willing to spend ~$20 each) for Dark Forces and Jedi Knight1 (and MotS) re-done using the new engine and saber combat system.

 

Mike

 

Why pay for them, when they are already being developed by the MOD community? Have you tried the Dark Forces mod demo yet? It rocks, IMHO. And Dark Forces 2 Enhanced is coming along nicely - they're doing some sweet work on that mod. They just need time and more support to continue development, but what they've achieved so far looks very professional.

 

 

Anyone...back to the question of cut scenes..

 

Originally posted by AKPiggott

I disagree. Game engines are getting to the point where in-game cutscenes more than suffice (look at NOLF2 and Mafia). They flow better with the stuff in-game and they allow more freedom for SP editing.

 

Yes, you do have a point. NOLF2 and Mafia's cut scenes do look very nice, with hi-res models, proper lip-synching and facial animation, and I do believe NOLF2 uses motion-capture due to the level of smooth micro-movements. However, the Q3 engine does not seem very capable in this area, although RTCW managed quite well.

 

If they are going to continue to use in-engine cut scenes, then they really need to look very seriously at motion-capture, including micro-movements, very hi-res and detailed models that actually move around fluidly (a toss of the head, shifting weight from one foot to the other, putting a hand on hip etc. ), and proper (complex and smooth) facial animation and lip-syncing. Giving characters their own individual little habits (like brushing a hand through their hair, picking their nose, or what-have-you), also brings them alive as individuals. Also, sometimes when you see a character make a gesture, it is too slow. In real life, people also make sharp, quick gestures and movements.

 

Lastly, they still need to work a great deal more on cutting between different shots, camera angles, and all the rest of it. A cut scene should feel more like a mini-movie, with things going on in the background, dynamic action and interesting composition. In short, they need a film-style director to frame shots, including close-ups of character's faces.

 

Originally posted by txa1265

Another thing to lose - level stats. It makes it more of a game and less of a story. I preferred SoFII's 're-arming' screens.

 

Yes, I'd like to see something similar to SOF - but even SOF had stats at the end of each mission. Good examples of games that managed without stats are Unreal and Half-Life. Personally, I don't think stats are really necessary these days. In Unreal, for example, a small part of what makes me want to replay it is not knowing if I found all the secret areas. Today I prefer to focus more on achieving objectives, and I couldn't care less how many headshots I got, how many enemies I killed, or how many gold pieces I managed to collect. All of those things could be implemented within the context of the game...like you overhear a conversation...

 

"Did you hear about the massacre on ??? Base? I hear they got hit by a battalion."

 

"No...it was one man."

 

Or....

 

"Someone infiltrated the base and killed a couple of guards. Thank the stars we had light losses."

 

Or...

 

"Well, they may have invaded the base...but they didn't find my secret cache of weapons..."

 

These things could also take the form of written journals, or something. That keeps you in the context of the game...and lets you know you could have done better, or that there were things you missed.

 

Originally posted by Anakin

Things that Jedi Outcast lacked, was atmosphere, there was never any apart from the Yavin Swamp, i could 'feel' like I was there, but the other levels like Nar Sharda, lack of NPC's and ships and other things going on made it quite wooden and boring.

 

Yes, I agree to an extent. It depends on the type of atmosphere they are aiming to create, though. Personally, I didn't think the Swamp was that great...because to my mind swamps are places festering with all different types of life, from buzzing insects to dangerous predators, with dark moody lighting, things slithering past your boots, and noises all around. It may be cliche, but it works for me.

 

The problem usually arises when trying to realise a true city-scape. You not only need the size and depth for the level...you need to populate it with believable characters going about their business. Baron's Hed in JK (and Katraasi space-port in MotS) remains one of my favourite levels simply because of the number of neutral NPCs going about their business. Unfortunately, they were mostly humans...and in the Star Wars universe it's simply not that realistic if all the aliens are against you.

 

If they are going to make any city-style levels in a sequel, they really do need to seriously take this on board. There should be lots of different types of aliens moving around (not simply standing still), going about their business, and you shouldn't know which are enemies and which are not just by seeing a particular type of alien. To my mind, you should only know someone is your enemy when they start firing at you...or take other action against you. Other aliens should run for cover when the shooting starts - or on the odd occasion maybe even help you.

 

I don't know how they are going to get around the limitations of some of these game engines, that do not allow large numbers of NPCs on screen at the same time. However, we all know that other game engines can manage it, and so lessons need to be learned. If poly-bumping can retain character detail with fewer polygons, and allows a greater number of characters on screen at a time, then I'm all for it. I'll be interested to see how Rebellion cope in the Judge Dredd game that's in development, because they have stated there will be a high number of NPC's making up the crowds of Mega-City One.

 

Of course, the other thing that needs to be taken on board in city scenes is the number and variety of droids...and actually seeing moving ground vehicles (land-speeders, swoop-bikes, maintenance vehicles, repulsor sleds etc). Just take a look at Tatooine in Star Wars: Special Edition. Therein lies the problem...we've all seen it on the big screen, and now we want to see it replicated on the small screen.

[Anakin]

True, cost need to be kept to a min, on an expasion as it is just to rake some more moeny in for the Devs, as well as the bundle packs and the expansion pack by them self's.

 

If I ever finish my Ansion level you will see what I would of liked to of seen in Nar Sharda and Bespin, lots of things going on and NPC's.

[Anakin]

Originally posted by StormHammer

 

Yes, I agree to an extent. It depends on the type of atmosphere they are aiming to create, though. Personally, I didn't think the Swamp was that great...because to my mind swamps are places festering with all different types of life, from buzzing insects to dangerous predators, with dark moody lighting, things slithering past your boots, and noises all around. It may be cliche, but it works for me.

 

The problem usually arises when trying to realise a true city-scape. You not only need the size and depth for the level...you need to populate it with believable characters going about their business. Baron's Hed in JK (and Katraasi space-port in MotS) remains one of my favourite levels simply because of the number of neutral NPCs going about their business. Unfortunately, they were mostly humans...and in the Star Wars universe it's simply not that realistic if all the aliens are against you.

 

If they are going to make any city-style levels in a sequel, they really do need to seriously take this on board. There should be lots of different types of aliens moving around (not simply standing still), going about their business, and you shouldn't know which are enemies and which are not just by seeing a particular type of alien. To my mind, you should only know someone is your enemy when they start firing at you...or take other action against you. Other aliens should run for cover when the shooting starts - or on the odd occasion maybe even help you.

 

I don't know how they are going to get around the limitations of some of these game engines, that do not allow large numbers of NPCs on screen at the same time. However, we all know that other game engines can manage it, and so lessons need to be learned. If poly-bumping can retain character detail with fewer polygons, and allows a greater number of characters on screen at a time, then I'm all for it. I'll be interested to see how Rebellion cope in the Judge Dredd game that's in development, because they have stated there will be a high number of NPC's making up the crowds of Mega-City One.

 

Of course, the other thing that needs to be taken on board in city scenes is the number and variety of droids...and actually seeing moving ground vehicles (land-speeders, swoop-bikes, maintenance vehicles, repulsor sleds etc). Just take a look at Tatooine in Star Wars: Special Edition. Therein lies the problem...we've all seen it on the big screen, and now we want to see it replicated on the small screen. [/b]

 

 

One day we will get it all

The lack of pushing the engine to the limits was the main problem, but at the end of the day there is only such much Mr Normal PC will take. Unlike most of us who have monsters in there PC's. A bit like mine

 

I think the whole thing just boils down to how long can Activsion make money off the game before releasing it, and how long will the community stay with out the rest of the editing tools that were promosid. Thats a different topic all together.