StormHammer Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Just thought I'd post this while it's fresh in my head - just some ideas about that level you might consider at a future date... Having just played through Ramsees Hed, there are a few issues with the level that I think could be addressed in the Mod. They are largely architectural and modelling issues. Start Point You just start next to a sheer grey wall. No door, and no other clue as to how you got to that point. If the Moldy Crow had landed to drop you off...it would have (a) alerted the Stormtroopers around the corner, (b) blown the mission. If there was a short access tunnel, a door, even an open grate in the floor, it would make a great deal more sense as to how you got there by more covert means. The Ship Now, they were obviously pretty much constrained by what they could do in terms of modelling the ship in DF, and I personally think the exterior needs a total revamp. At the very least, it needs some sloping sides...perhaps even curves in places. As for the rocket boosters at the rear, they would look a whole lot better if they were modelled properly, and if there was a gap between them and the ground, it would make it feel a lot more like a ship being held in place, rather than just a retextured block attached to the ground. Indeed, most of the exterior of that level just feels wrong. When you enter the ship, you go down in a lift - so the ship is obviously a lot deeper than the supposed ground level. I think you could really get around this by making the floor outside of the ship into some kind of retractable grating or decking (even see-through, so you can see the rest of the ship model) rather than solid concrete, and leave gaps between it and the ship. This would make sense in the context of flooring that could be retracted when the ship is ready to blast off. The solid wall at the rear of the boosters probably needs a 'blast' texture...something to show the intense heat of the rockets hitting that section of wall on a regular basis. Or even remodel it into a blast-pit where exhaust gases are sucked away. The grey walls that connect with the side of the ship seem totally out of place. If they were remodelled and retextured, you could make them appear more like giant clamps keeping the ship in place while docked. If you're not sure what I mean, check out the second level of Jedi Knight - where you have to walk on top of a large ship (then inside it). The whole ship is held in place by gigantic magnetic clamps (which seem more like walls, but aren't). As for when you reach the open bay doors of the ship...there is no obvious place for the cargo to be offloaded. If there were doors in the walls opposite the open ship doors, and maybe a crate or two standing on the ground outside the ship, it would make a lot more sense, IMHO. It would even be a nice touch to add some kind of large pipe attached to the side at the rear of the ship, to show that it is being refeuled. When you get inside the ship, and down to the first cargo hold, it seems a bit empty. Maybe you could model some lifting gear, and something to move the crates around, like a large repulser sled or something. Covert Operation? The remainder of the level seems okay - but there is a glaring inconsistency in the entire mission IMHO. If you are supposed to be attaching a tracking device to the ship in order to learn where it is going...surely that should be a more covert operation? Yet all you do in that level is shoot everything that moves. Now, if someone boarded a vessel and killed the crew, surely an alarm would be raised, and the ship impounded pending an investigation. I'm not saying it should be a 'sneak' level like that found in JO...but if there were alternative pathways (especially through the crates) you could use to get past the enemies on that level, it would make a lot more sense, IMHO. Taking that a step further, the inclusion of the 'stun' weapon from JO might be a nice addition for non-lethal take-downs. Just some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Ummm, I may be wrong, but that dark room you enter via a lift is not the ship, but a cargo hold. I thought the ship was that white cooridor and all. I may be wrong, but thats's whst I always thought. Will there be crates with the words: Rubber Ducks and/ or Glass Bombs be in it? I laughed to see that in the original. Very detailed info, I like the idea of the whole beginning. Maybe make it into a docking bay instead of a big gray cube... The Crow may or may not be identified. Remember, they landed at Ergo with no hassel.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted March 2, 2003 Author Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Katarn07 Ummm, I may be wrong, but that dark room you enter via a lift is not the ship, but a cargo hold. I thought the ship was that white cooridor and all. I may be wrong, but thats's whst I always thought. I believe you are mistaken. You only have to look to the left from the start point to see the ship's engines...and when you walk around to the open door, that's in the side of the ship. You are entering the cargo hold of the ship, not a warehouse holding facility. The white corridors are where the crew normally work, so it's bound to be clean, tidy and well-lit, hence the contrast. Trust me on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey S Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 The outside areas certainly need something to make it feel more like a spaceport. The suggestions made sounds pretty good. The plot problem I'd noticed too; it's made worse by Kyle killing off everyone on board, so how does it get to it's destination? The goals could be adjusted so the player has to download navigational information. The Crow landed at Ergo because it's a public refueling station, with no real secrets to hide asside from one ship which goes to the secret position of the Executor. Ramsees Hed is also a public place, but this area is probably purely Imperial. It might be an idea to try to make that clearer, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 thanks for the suggestions on this level. It certainly has some weak points. Perhaps we could add an objective: "Attach Tracking Device" "Avoid Detection" we can place those alarm panels all over the ship like they had on the Doomgiver and if any one sees you, or a corpse, they will go sound the alarm, you'll be caught and the mission will end in failure. how does that sound? the arcitecture ideas are a given - when we finish it should actually resemble a ship at a docking bay, not some blocks with engines painted on them next to some more blocks with a wall painted on them yes we'll keep the Rubber Duck crates too . . ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmolatedYoda Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Darth_Linux we can place those alarm panels all over the ship like they had on the Doomgiver and if any one sees you, or a corpse, they will go sound the alarm, you'll be caught and the mission will end in failure. how does that sound? noooooooooo!!!! i hated those!! i dont really care if its logical or not to kill off the entire crew, but dont put the alarm panels in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 No covert ops, please! How about the security rooms being taken out first, and then you must plant the stuff just before the ship takes off. (unless you are in the ship while planting it, detail sucks so bad, I never knew the whole thing was the ship!) My suggestions for this realism- -- Disable Imperial Security -- Plant Tracking Device -- Escape the ship before taking off (different route then how you get there!!!) The reason it must be different is that there is no way you could get back to the Crow at one point, because you fall off a ledge that takes you closer to the main portion of the ship that you can not get back onto, Or at least that's what I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antizac Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 As much as I hated the Covert OPS level in JO - in another way I really enjoyed it, as it actually required my brain to stratigize, and think in other ways, besides running and shooting. What you could do is: Easy setting: 1 or 2 alarm panel(s) near the VERY end where you place the tracking device. Medium setting: One or two alarm panels at the beginning, middle, or end with the addition of the panel(s) in the Easy setting. Hard: The same as Medium but with additional panels, at the beginning middle or end. Now does that seem unreasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_One Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 The problem with that solution is that it actually alters the gameplay of the level depending on the difficult setting. Dificulty settings should not alter gameplay - only the ease of which you complete a level. Well, that's my opinion anyway. The structure of a level should never change, regardless of difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmolatedYoda Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Originally posted by The_One The problem with that solution is that it actually alters the gameplay of the level depending on the difficult setting. Dificulty settings should not alter gameplay - only the ease of which you complete a level. Well, that's my opinion anyway. The structure of a level should never change, regardless of difficulty. i agree completely...and is it even possible to do what he said? change the structure of a map for each level of difficulty? i think it would be too much hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antizac Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I never said anything about changing architecture - just adding or subtracting alarm panels depending on the difficulty setting. Nothing too hard about that. Just simply assign the panels to the correct difficulty setting. But it's not my mod - so, do what works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewok mercenary Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I never said anything about changing architecture - just adding or subtracting alarm panels depending on the difficulty setting. Nothing too hard about that. They didn't say anything about changing architecture either. They said it would change the gameplay and structure of the level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I just realy think that to be a bad idea. I like the disabling security, or better yet--- Jan and the Intelligence has doctored up some security tapes for Kyle to replace with the tapes rolling on the cameras. He must go there, disable any alarms, and then find the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 I can't think of a way to make this level realistic without the alarm panels. Seriously. I mean who can waltz onto a ship, kill the entire crew, plant a tracking device and then leave, and absolutely no one investigates or locks down the ship?? I'll keep thinking about it, but seriously, sneaking onto a ship to plant a tracking device should be covert and difficult. Too bad the JO engine can't do the types of things the Thief engine could - then we wouldn't need panels - if an enemy saw you or a corpse they would start searching for you . . anyway, let's have some more ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted March 8, 2003 Author Share Posted March 8, 2003 It's a pity you can't remote control a droid to plant the device...then a lot of the argument would be academic. That would obviously alter the gameplay, though... The only thing I can think of is what I suggested before...provide some kind of alternative path to the objective that allows you to avoid contact with enemies - and have a stun weapon to use on those you see going for an alarm panel. Or here's a thought...considering the number of crates on the ship...what if some of them contained chemicals - and when shot, it releases a gas that simply knocks out anyone in proximity? Volatile cargo should be nothing new, and while there would be an investigation after any accidents...a vessel would be more likely to continue it's voyage once the suspect containers were removed... You're right - it's a pity it's not set up similar to Thief... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algardex Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 NO COVERT!!!!!!!! Just leave as it was in the original bad boy K style.Kill all the guards, blow things up, plant the thingie and get out. Thats what Dark forces,Jk and Jo was all about DESTRUCTION in the star wars universe. Not Covert and stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Here we go. I got it. Kyle knocks out security cameras in a cutscene and then leaves the control tower and finds the ship. Go through it, guns blazing. Get to the bridge (where the keys are) and take out the officers and do a delayed takeoff via switch, cutscene, I don't know. Also, plug in some phony tapes into the security cameras so that the control tower does not try to contact the ship. Rush to the back and stop the crew from stopping the ship and plant a tracking device on the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algardex Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Yeah something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_One Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 So long since I played this level, so this may not work at all. How about, we just add a new objective where he has to plant a big bomb and set the timer. This would blow up the base and destroy anyone who may have seen you. In the mission brief it could say "You will have to plant a detonator, thus making the whole incident look like an accident". Actually, the more I look at it, the more ridiculous it seems *Goes back to his website* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 LEC wasn't thinking at all... Well, I'd rather it be unrealistic than covert ops, cause there are no alternate routes... I mean, isn't this the "kingpin's" cargo ship we're tagging? Not Imps... Although they are delivering the cargo or something... I thought it was this "kingpin's" cause he wants to killing you for interfering with his affairs. So, the Imps couldn't do much to stop the ship if the crew is dead and the control tower is disabled. How about a cutscene of Jan leaving the Crow and actually doing some dirty work up there? I mean, I'm sure she had to do more than fly Kyle around to get so much credit.... *** "Up there" means the control tower.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey S Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 The best I can come up with is replacing the "Plant tracking device" with a "Retrieve the information" objective, perhaps planting a bomb to delay investigations. Presumably the ship had folowed the same course to Anteevy before, so it should be in the navigation databank. But there's no way the ship would go flying off after Kyle's been on his rampage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Well, here is another idea. Kyle goes on his killing spree as he takes out all the crew members and plants a tracking device near the fuselage of the cargo ship so that the ion particles mask its presence from the control tower's scanners. Kyle rides on the ship to Anteevy, where Jan can follow him easily to the place. He escapes from the ship just in time before the Imps come to get their Phrik and Rubber Ducks (what? I guess the officers get bored in the tub...) Cutscene shows Kyle and Jan near the canyon. Jan says the plan did not go to plan of avoiding decetion and planting the device, but they got there anyways. She can say that they probably have uped their security details (ala Darktroopers!) Then the mission starts. Of course, if you did that, I'd like to alter my conversation between the snowtroopers. This could work. And you can have alarms going off on the ship and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Toddy Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 What if you had an objective for Kyle to knock out a guard and steal his uniform? Then you could sneak around and not have to worry about being shot at. However, should one of the guards catch you doing something suspicious, the alarm would be sounded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey S Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Like in MOHAA? Sounds good, but it changes the gameplay of the level completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcountryman03 Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 i'm gonna have to agree with the covert idea. The going in guns ablazing approach just seems to far fetched. I mean common, its 1 level and if yu don'[t like it, play te original Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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