Gameplay Suggestions

[nomad]

I would just like to voice my desires about lightsaber play.

I play this game mainly for saber vs. saber duels, so excuse me if that's non-competitive jk

I totally want to see a nice balanced game for all involved, so I agree with many problems gunners have with the gameplay (hey, I like being a gunner every once and a while too)

Mainly, I would love to have a more complex control of the saber.

I'll probably get roasted for bringing this up... but I believe a game called "Die By The Sword" was a great advancement for melee combat games that went way too unnoticed. The problem was that everyone was consumed with playing mouse controled/Doom style games, so that most people didn't bother or had too much of a problem learning to use the "VSIM" control mode.

The "VSIM" control mode allowed you to completely control your sword arm with the numpad keys. "4" swung the weapon across your body to the left, while "6" swung it back to the right.

"9" brought your sword arm up and "1" would swing it all the way down and across to your left. Those controls coupled with the "0" key to extend your arm and the "enter" key to parry/block made an extremely diverse and well controlled individualistic combat system.

The most difficult part of the learning curve (besides learning how to operate your sword arm) was then learning to move properly without the old reliable mouse turning system. Instead "a" and "d" rotated and "q" and "e" strafed. The biggest mistake they made with that game was that these controls were optional and most gamers I knew didn't bother to use them, opting instead for the common doom/style controls. Which made the game pretty poor for most.

I'm sure Raven will not be completely re-designing the gameplay controls to this extent (if at all) but I just wanted to voice my opinion, that there is at least one person in this universe (are there others?) that desires a melee combat system with more individual control. I myself, enjoy the game of fencing, and found "Die By The Sword" 's gameplay to most closely capture the thrill of the duel.

Dare I say that this style of control would also make deflecting laser blasts a little more challenging and much more credible if done well? Yes, I suppose I do indeed dare.

 

-nomad

MTFBWY

[Matariel]

i agree with you totally nomad, kudos

though the die by the sword method isnt really feasable with a mouse-keys combo, but something similar would be really cool

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by DSbr-HaZe

I was looking forward to jk2 because I was hoping for a jk1 without the hacks and with some updated guns/force powers. The game just had too many problems and the ridiculous community of whining saberists made it pathetic.

 

the whining starwars nerds greatly outnumber us. sure, we'll play the game a lot more than them, but honestly, does that really matter to raven? a minority of "pro" gamers, half of which will warez jk3, vs a vast hoard of super nerd jedi wannabes who will all buy the game. who will raven cater to? They don't give a **** that Mr. "I wanna live out my jedi dreams in a magical 3d world" plays the game a total of three times. as long as he buys a copy.

 

imo this is one of the main reasons why jk2 sucked so much. I do really hope raven listens to us thing time around.

 

also, raven needs to ****ijng go easy on the q3 engine this time around. get some new programmers or something. I can get like 500 fps in q3 (with high detail) but 50 - 100 fps in jk2 with the lowest detail. high r_picmip and other graphic tweaks didn't help either. carmack must have been laughing at the hack job raven did with his creation.

[Matariel]

the reason why jk2 gets lower fps is that q3 models have polycounts =<1000 and the textures are all 1/4 of the size of the jk2 max texture size

not to mention all of the additions to the engine raven made, the saber combat for one, sound improvements (u think 3d sound is free?) icarus uses up some resources too

and think of the stuff u see on screen, the q3 maps are really basic on the brushes because they're not there for lookin' they're there for tha killin'! jk2 maps are waaay more complex, and about 4x as big most of the time

i'd love to see how mike gummelt reacts to your 'hack job' comment

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by contender

I remember why DSbr was so dominant, especially early on. They could strafe jump, and circle jump, everyone else was 'running' or maybe bunnyhopping the open areas. The first DSbr pickup I went to, I saw speed + rage and the strafe jump, amazingly fast. The gap had drawn closer recently as more players learned to strafe jump, but DSbr still had the advantage of lots of FPS skill.

 

ahh its refreshing to see a truthful / non-spiteful-newbie post about DSbr hehe. You don't see that very often :]

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by Matariel

the reason why jk2 gets lower fps is that q3 models have polycounts =<1000 and the textures are all 1/4 of the size of the jk2 max texture size

not to mention all of the additions to the engine raven made, the saber combat for one, sound improvements (u think 3d sound is free?) icarus uses up some resources too

and think of the stuff u see on screen, the q3 maps are really basic on the brushes because they're not there for lookin' they're there for tha killin'! jk2 maps are waaay more complex, and about 4x as big most of the time

i'd love to see how mike gummelt reacts to your 'hack job' comment

 

you're probably right about everything except the maps... there's not much of a difference at all with the maps. still, the engine was butchered pretty badly. im sure carmack's team could have done a much better job.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by Solo4114

1.) Removing strafe jump would not be a big mistake, it would be a big fix to a big bug. There is simply no reason why it should be in there and just because people have gotten used to using that particular EXPLOIT (and let's face it, that's all it is) is no reason to include it. If it's a bug, squish it.

 

buddy, strafe jumping is NOT a bug or exploit. it was INTENTIONALLY coded into the quake 3 engine. it was indeed a bug in quake 1, but quake fans liked it, thus it was intentionally coded into all the later quake games.

 

enough with this "strafe jumping IS An EXPLOIT BUG WAAH" crap. i see it way too much.

[DSbr-matt]

rofl and this is the next post.

 

Originally posted by Matariel

Raven are starting almost from scratch with this new game so:

(a) The sideways bunnyhopping probably will NOT be in the game, since it was a bug in the first place

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Do you have proof of this? Has ID publicly come forward and said "Yes, we left strafe jumping in the engine on purpose. We want to reward those who've taken the time to master it."

 

OMFG YES THEY HAVE. THIS HAS BEEN COMMON KNOWLEDGE FOR YEARS. THE REASON BEING BECAUSE QUAKE FANS LIKED IT. THIS IS A FACT. PLEASE STOP POSTING.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Please, oh please tell me I accidentally misread what I think I just saw and did not actually read posts about strafe jumping being an engine flaw or unintended glitch.

 

If I did all I have to ask is where the Hell have you people been for the last half dozen or so years?

 

Now people are whining about strafe jumping?

Strafe jumping?

 

Please go to ebworld and pre order your copy of SWG now, go, go, go, right now.

[shock ~ unnamed]

/me awaits a “Should JK3 have a scoring system or should every player who dies turn into a ghost” poll.

 

You know it’s going to happen, let’s just remove all scoring so every thing will be “fair” and “balanced” and we can all sit around Indian style and meditate and blah blah blah…

 

[DSbr-matt]

also there is absolutley no point for an integrated voice-chat system in jk3 so just stop wasting time writing about it AND DOWNLOAD THE FOLLOWING PROGRAMS:

 

roger wilco, ventrillo, teamspeak, battlecom, gamevoice AND MANY MANY MORE.

 

i am only trying to stop future useless posts, yes that means you solo.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

/me awaits a “Should JK3 have a scoring system or should every player who dies turn into a ghost” poll.

 

You know it’s going to happen, let’s just remove all scoring so every thing will be “fair” and “balanced” and we can all sit around Indian style and meditate and blah blah blah…

 

 

AHAHHAHAHAHA

[P4ulo]

"...and when strafe jumping was taken out of Q3Test, John Carmack was nearly a victim of death by e-mail. "

Yes strafe jumping was in quake 1 and ppl liked it, thats why it wasnt removed in q3, its a game, not real life physics, u could control it and disable it, and yet no one changed it cause the majority of gaming community enjoyed it, amen for that.

Thats something nice to know meaning that there s someone that actually cares about what ppl like and ppl that spend their money on a game.

[Matariel]

grrr...me not happy

 

strafe jumping may have been left in quake intentionally, but im not talking about quake, this is JEDI KNIGHT fellas, that kind of crap doesnt belong in this game. It should have been taken out long ago, i didnt even know it existed until i began posting in these forums again, and i havent seen it in action because i hate playing online because of tricks like this.

 

and gimme a break, the jk2 levels are way more complex than the baseq3 levels, just take a look for christs sake, there isnt much there!

 

and as for carmacks 'team' there were like 3 guys including carmack coding, and he did most of the engine work himself, the others were for stuff like sound coding and tools etc etc

 

and just to remind ppl, this is a GAMEPLAY SUGGESTIONS thread, ie. stuff that would be a cool feature to add to JA, this doesnt mean including old, lets just call them 'irregularities' in jump movement. Lets be creative ppl.

[makli]

Originally posted by Matariel

strafe jumping may have been left in quake intentionally, but im not talking about quake, this is JEDI KNIGHT fellas, that kind of crap doesnt belong in this game. It should have been taken out long ago, i didnt even know it existed until i began posting in these forums again, and i havent seen it in action because i hate playing online because of tricks like this.

 

Strafe jumping is as realistic as jedi knights, i m sure that more than 80 % of ppl playing online (not like u obviously) like it b/c it (as was said before) makes difference between decent players and beginners.

 

 

Originally posted by Matariel

and gimme a break, the jk2 levels are way more complex than the baseq3 levels, just take a look for christs sake, there isnt much there!

 

That s not true. Also u should notice that there are only 4 CTF maps in JK2 - ctf_ns_streets and yavin are fine, bespin is too small and its not too good map either (many chances for pull whores, no where to dodge golan shot in corridors in base) and ctf_imperial which is unplayable crap.

[leXX]

Ok people, this thread is not for discussing the pros and cons of strafe jumping, it is for Gameplay Suggestions. No more talk on that subject please. Thank you.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt

It's your opinion that class based games work yet you admit that MotS (class based) is dead and JK1 (not class based) is alive? Dude, you need to look into taking some basic common sense and logic classes lol.

 

JK is not RtcW or any other game, it's JK. Using MotS to judge the classed in the serious makes much more sense.

 

Maybe you're the one who needs the logic classes. You seem to believe the following:

 

1.) MOTS had a crappy class system.

2.) MOTS is dead.

therefore...

3.) Any class based system implemented in a game involving Jedi must be a failure.

 

Now, let's see if we can't poke a few holes in your vaunted logic, shall we?

 

I'll give you that proposition #1 is true. I'll even give you that proposition #2 is true. But you see, #3 doesn't necessarily follow from the first two. Now, if a class system similar to MOTS was implemented in a future game, that would probably suck, especially if it was applied to basic free-for-all gameplay. FFA style gameplay is NOT a world that is friendly to classes. Team games, on the other hand, are. You can have a good team made up of a number of classes (IE: medics, assault troops, scouts, defenders, whatever), where each class depends on the presence of other classes on that team.

 

I've offered you plenty of other systems that have proven that class-based games are both extremely popular and quite viable. I'm not saying that these systems should be ported over to JA or other future Star Wars games, but I'm saying that they prove that you are dead wrong in the assertion that any class based system must necessarily fail. There are ways in which a class based system could be effectively implemented in a Star Wars game, even if it isn't coded by Raven. A well-balanced, entertaining team game with classes could work quite well as an additional game mode, and I've yet to see any logical reason proposed by you that supports a contrary position.

 

As for the usefulness of voice chat in a game, matt, just because you can't see the use for it doesn't mean the post itself is useless. What the hell happened to actual level-headed debate about this stuff? It seems like when folks make a suggestion that some people don't agree with here, the immediate response is not only to attack the idea (which is fine), but the poster as well. Jesus, have some friggin' manners. If you don't like my idea, fine. But try to be civil about debating it. Moreover, you REALLY build up GREAT credibility for your argument when you simply say "That's useless. Next?" and don't bother to provide any support for the position. Plenty of games have used voice chat to good effect, and yes, TeamSpeak IS a very useful tool IN ADDITION to those abilities. I use teamspeak when playing with a group of folks in BF1942 and it's great. I'm well aware of the program. It's still helpful, especially for pub games, to have a voicechat system. It's also helpful for playing with regulars or clan members who either don't have TS, can't get it working, or don't have a microphone.

 

Now, if everyone's just gonna start jumping down peoples' throats every time ANY suggestion is made, if people are just going to say "Wait for the great list o' suggestions document to be posted, and quit posting in the meantime," maybe this thread should be closed. After all, if we're not going to entertain further discussion on the issue, why bother keeping it open, hmm??

[Jeff 42]

I thought of something else that should be fixed that I don't remember being mentioned before. In CTF the detection of when someone is touching a flag should be better, so you don't have to worry about running over a flag and not stealing it/returning it/capping the flag you're carrying, all of which happen too often and are very annoying.

[twl.Sphinx]

Yes...That is EXTREMELY irritating. Definitely fix that.

-Sphinx

[Necrosis]

Hehe, it's also EXTREMELY useful for cappers like myself. I have made TONS of caps without the enemy's even knowing I had the flag. =d

 

But yes, it should be fixed.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by Jeff 42

I thought of something else that should be fixed that I don't remember being mentioned before. In CTF the detection of when someone is touching a flag should be better, so you don't have to worry about running over a flag and not stealing it/returning it/capping the flag you're carrying, all of which happen too often and are very annoying.

 

DEFINITELY should be fixed. If you touch it, you should take it, and if you are a carrier who touches YOUR flag, you should cap, no ifs ands or buts.

 

God knows it's a pain in the ass to race all the way through tight defenses, braving untold hazards, to the point where you FINALLY leap high in the air to hopefully snag the flag and haul ass on your way home....only to realize that you DIDN'T touch the flag, as far as the game is concerned, and you have to turn around to get it. Same goes for when you race back, fending off enemies, barelying making it back alive, with only a few scant hitpoints left, again, leaping high in the air to land on your flag and capture...only to discover that you're still holding the damn flag and you somehow managed to jump THROUGH your team's flag staff.

 

(It IS nice if you're chasing a flag carrier, though, to see him whiff through that flag, allowing you to plaster him with an alt-fire from the heavy repeater -- assuming you aren't out of ammo at that point...)

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Personally I don't think this Gameplay Document is a good idea. All we know about JA multiplayer is that it will probably have some resemblance to JK2. Its probably safe to assume that since saber combat is a focus, force powers will player an even bigger role in multiplayer. So my ONLY suggestion is to fix pull/push and possible adjust it so you can't use both rage and speed at the same time. Give rage its original purpose of being offensive and it might just work.

 

Normal movement speed and the increase you gain from jump and speed could also be improved, but other than that... JUST FIX PULL/PUSH/RAGE.

[contender]

Originally posted by Necrosis

Hehe, it's also EXTREMELY useful for cappers like myself. I have made TONS of caps without the enemy's even knowing I had the flag. =d

 

But yes, it should be fixed.

 

I beleive he's referring to the flag hitbox being located around the bottom of the flag 'pole'. Which made it so you could travel through the 'flag' part, thus causing the issues with bumping up over the flag, especially on Yavin.

[twl.Sphinx]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Personally I don't think this Gameplay Document is a good idea. All we know about JA multiplayer is that it will probably have some resemblance to JK2. Its probably safe to assume that since saber combat is a focus, force powers will player an even bigger role in multiplayer. So my ONLY suggestion is to fix pull/push and possible adjust it so you can't use both rage and speed at the same time. Give rage its original purpose of being offensive and it might just work.

 

Normal movement speed and the increase you gain from jump and speed could also be improved, but other than that... JUST FIX PULL/PUSH/RAGE.

 

 

The only way to make rage offensive would be to remove self kill, and I'm sure most all here would agree that wouldn't fly. Self kill is what makes rage a defensive tool more than anything else.

They just need to make it so you can "de-rage" people easier, like make them take more damage, or at least make dets or mines hose rage automatically.

-Sphinx