Raven, Please Do Your EU Research

[HertogJan]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

My opinion on the whole topic of game continuity is as follows:

The game MUST follow the timeline. To do otherwise shows a lack of creativity. It's not hard to make up NEW characters for games and I don't think anyone really cares if Luke Skywalker doesn't make a cameo, the individual characters aren't as important as the rest of the SW universe.

-Just my thoughts.

 

 

Individual characters ARE important. You want to identify with someone right? Therefore it's great to have Skywalker around, you recognize him from the movies (the only official timeline around)!!

[Luc Solar]

*points out that 90% of people who think Star Wars is cool have never even heard of EU or the Yuushan Vong[sp?] and are not the least bit concerned about whether or not a game is faithfully following these crappy novels*

[Matariel]

amen brother!

actually, i just realised a great metaphor for this little discussion, religion! bear with me...

Lets just say that the cinema releases of Star Wars are the only canon (and religion is where the term canon came from, by the way), and therefore is the fundimental 'church' of star wars (i told you to bear with me)

then that makes the EU splinter religions with their own ideals and interpretations of the 'bible' (the movies), and they tack on more stuff to add to the 'bible'. Of course we all know that breakaway and splinter religions are the ones that cause the most trouble, so we should just leave them the hell alone.

 

Pretty trippy eh?

I'm still all for new characters or even EU characters in JA, but to follow the EU timeline or continuity is just silly, let Raven use some artistic licence

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

I just checked out this thread and saw THIS!:

 

That's just mind-numbingly ignorant! if your story was reviewed by guys like M. A. Stackpole and then published, then it would become part of the timeline. Lucasbooks makes specific reference to such "Infinities" and, although it publishes them, they have no effect on future "True" stories. EU is one of the most important part of the SW universe (both pre- and post-movie) and to dismiss it like that is just plain stoopid.

 

EU is important? HAH!

 

Let's re-kickstart the canon arguement right here!

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Blademaster_109

what is an eu search

 

Blademaster - can I respectfully ask that you type in sentences using words? This is a message-based forum, not an IRC chat area.

 

The original poster was talking about doing EU Research. EU is 'expanded universe' - check out http://www.starwars.com/eu/

 

"If your experience with Star Wars has been just the movies, you're only getting a fraction of the entire tale. Since the start, the Star Wars saga has been expanded through novels, comics, and games. Here you'll find news on the latest releases, interviews with your favorite authors and artists, and much more. "

 

That said ... I only care about sketchy accuracy personally. But hat is me ...

 

Mike

[Solbe M'ko]

EU is important.

Think about it, half the stuff that Lucas wanted in his movies was likely thrown out long before the movies were made. I think that EU in general should be upheld, not just the novels. For example, Han Solo shouldn't die and Chewbacca shouldn't be alive, etc.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

EU is important.

Think about it, half the stuff that Lucas wanted in his movies was likely thrown out long before the movies were made. I think that EU in general should be upheld, not just the novels. For example, Han Solo shouldn't die and Chewbacca shouldn't be alive, etc.

 

Yes it is ... but while it should guide decisions, it shouldn't be the focus of the story.

 

For instance, you shouldn't make a game in which you play Luke between ANH and TESB in which you repeat JK1 stuff in a Luke vein, and end up as a Jedi Master before you reach Hoth ...

 

... on the other hand I think they should stay away from a lot of the newer stuff - like the whole NJO. Just leave it alone ...

 

Mike

[Prime]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

EU is important.

Think about it, half the stuff that Lucas wanted in his movies was likely thrown out long before the movies were made. I think that EU in general should be upheld, not just the novels. For example, Han Solo shouldn't die and Chewbacca shouldn't be alive, etc.

I disagree. Lucas definitely left stuff out of the movies (a lot has been put back into the novelizations), but that stuff is not what is captured in the EU novels. The EU has been created by people other than Lucas. Lucas Licensing handles any major continuity problems.

 

IMO, since Lucas is not involved with the EU, I don't particularly care if other people deviate from it or not. It is nice to have a somewhat consistent timeline, but I don't feel that it is untouchable.

[Solbe M'ko]

I'm not just talking about the Expanded Universe Novels. I'm talking about everything Star Wars that wasn't in the movies. Consistency is important with these types of franchises. Look at BattleTech: it has lots of games and most of the stories fit into the universe. I think that you could make a game with your own creative ideas and still not have to negate certain parts of the timeline.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

I'm not just talking about the Expanded Universe Novels. I'm talking about everything Star Wars that wasn't in the movies. Consistency is important with these types of franchises. Look at BattleTech: it has lots of games and most of the stories fit into the universe. I think that you could make a game with your own creative ideas and still not have to negate certain parts of the timeline.

Good point

[Archonon]

As far as this topic goes I believe that it is all relative. I think people can believe which ever version they want to accept as the "real" one. The only thing that should be taken as completely true are the movies and possibly the novelizations of the movies since they are developed from the complete scripts which were later edited for time, etc. Everything else should be up to the individual to decide and accept as wether or not it actually occured but nothing should be forced into acceptance as what happened either before or after the movie anthology. On that note I believe that unless the game actually deals with the particular storyline developed within the EU (or events related to that storyline) the game should be able to develop whatever story/timeline it desires as long as it doesn't interfere/conflict with what was established in the movies or their novelizations.

 

Many people feel differently towards the EU. Personally there are things that I really liked such as the Solo children, Mara Jade, Thrawn and Shadows of the Empire (though I hated the fact the novelization of SotE diminished horribly the role of such a kick ass charcater as Dash Rendar) and subsequently there have been things that I absolutely hate in the EU such as the extremely repeated overuse of cloning characters, Luke going to the Dark Side and everything about the NJO. Which I'm not tring to sound as if I'm criticizing those that do like the things I do not, only stating my preference as far as the EU is concerned. As a fanfic writer myself I do recognize the importance of exapnding of the SW universe and more than anything seeing the different takes of those expansions be it by published or fanfic creations.

 

Basically I follow Lucas' point of view as far as the EU is concerned which he stated is an alternate universe to his. In that spirit I take the EU, other timelines/alternate realities such as Infinities and game stories in this fashion. Not one of them is the real continuation of Lucas' world but an interesting take on what could have happened.

[Solbe M'ko]

The non-interference thing is paramount for me.

Good comments.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

The non-interference thing is paramount for me.

Good comments.

Coming up with a non-conflicting storyline shouldn't be too limiting.

[Solbe M'ko]

Stemming from that point, an analogy to music:

If someone comes up to me and says: "Play something" it's hard to make it up right there. If someone said: "Play something in so and so key in so and so style, and use this chord pregression, it would be way easier. Creativity works best when it's surrounded by a see-through fence.

Just a thought

[ArtifeX]

On the topic of movie/EU conflicts, how about the fact that an entire novel in EU was dedicated to describing Luke and Leia's mother as some mysterious witch-cult member? That was the big one for me. I quit reading anything but NJO after that. I figure that NJO's too far in the future for them to stumble across too many whoppers like that.

[Burrie]

That series that you are referring to is probably the Black Fleet crisis. A rather good series, if you ask me, although I would've liked to see more of the Han/Leia interaction than the Luke interactions.

 

This series(and the EU because of it) often gets unnecessarily_bashed for the reason that you stated earlier. It's somewhat understandable, seeing as how folks apparantly hate the first book(especially that one particular storyline), and find out that more people hate the book, which often results in the reader not completing the series. That way, they also won't find out that the entire "Luke's mother is a follower of the Fallanassi" is all one big scam, orchestrated by Akanah.

 

To be honest, I personally would recommend that you try, finish and understand a storyline before you start bashing it.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Burrie

To be honest, I personally would recommend that you try, finish and understand a storyline before you start bashing it.

Or I could read the synopsises and back covers and decide that the NJO sounds completely foolish to me. Some EU I like, such as the Thrawn trilogy, but not the NJO.

 

I don't really buy the "finish and understand a storyline before you start bashing it" responses I often see from EU (and NJO in particular) supporters. I know that when I see a preview for a Rob Snieder movie, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like. I am certainly sure enough not to pay the price of admission. For me, the same goes for the NJO (as an EU example). Reading about the series and some of the concepts, my personal opinion is that it is not what I am looking for in a SW series by a long shot. I feel there are many aspects that contradict the movie canon (such as the no Dark Side thing). This stuff turns me off. Knowing this, I see no reason why I should purchase a book or two to see if I really would like it. Maybe I'm missing out, but I'll take my chances based on what I do know. The point is I don't think I should be prevented from saying what I don't like and why, even though I haven't read 10+ books to form that opinion.

 

That being said, I have no problem with people who support the NJO and EU in general. It's all a matter of taste. They can explain why they like it all they want, as long as I can explain why I don't.

[Burrie]

I can fully understand and see what you mean. I guess that I tend to react a bit too harshly. However, I tend to hear things like "This sucks" and "The NJO sucks, is awful, trite and all that" from fans who have absolutley no idea what they are even talking about. They immediately say that it's awful and goes against George's vision and all that. However, I've met lots of blokes who haven't even picked up a book, let alone read the back cover. In the end, they are merely jumping on the "We-hate-the-EU" bandwagon, which is something I clearly despise. Aye, I have little problem with someone disliking the EU(everyone has his own opinion after all), but if you simple hate it because everyone hates it... well, it just makes you a bit of a follower.

 

Now Prime, your example I like. You say that you've read the synopis of the NJO and simply said "This doesn't seem to be what I like, I'll go pick up something else". however, unlike some other folks, you don't bash the NJO. You simply didn't read it. That's A-OK with me, but quite frankly, it would be a bit odd if you'd suddenly start badmouthing the NJO, even though you haven't read it. Cheers for that.

 

Again, my pet peeve is that "hating the EU" became a fad a few years ago, closely following the "hating the TPM movie and JAR JAR" fad. People hate the EU for the sake of hating the it because everyone else hates it. The EU tends to get the blame for something whilst in reality, it shouldn't. For example...

 

* The earlier mentioned "This EU book says that Luke's mom is a Fallanassi. As explained, it's all a big scam.

* The Force has no Light or Dark side. A rather big misconception, because this is merely the believes of one Jedi. This does NOT mean that she is speaking the truth. Just because one Jedi Master(who seems to have slowly become mad) says that the Force is one and doesn't have a Light or Dark side doesn't necesarilly mean that she is right. Those are her beliefs, whilst most of the Jedi still believe in a Light and a Dark Side. In the end, this lil' sidetrip only sparked several interesting debates about the Force...

* Yoda's race is a whill. Now, I honestly do not understand why EU-bashers tend to blame the EU for this one, but it's pure nonsense. In no book at all has it ever been said that Yoda is a Whill. It's pure fan speculation.

 

That being said, I have no problem with people who support the NJO and EU in general. It's all a matter of taste. They can explain why they like it all they want, as long as I can explain why I don't.

 

And that's what I really like. I try to adopt this stance myself. If someone doesn't like the EU, I completely understand. Heck, I can even understand why this wouldn't be one's cup of tea. (plus, there are a few stories which also wasn't to my liking at all... the IG-88 storyline in Tales of Bounty Hunter went too far)

 

So let's agree on conflicting opinions!

[Solbe M'ko]

I second that motion!

(Starts hitting table with hand and hooting excitedly, then falls out of his chair and into a coma he has yet to recover from)

[Archonon]

As I stated before the EU is all a matter of taste and while some things might be appealing to some it won't be to others. I'ts not my intention to bash the EU, each person has their own preference as to what they think is a better story for continuing what was started in the movies as well as the events that lead up to the movies themselves. Even when it comes to the movies themselves there are plenty of prequel bashers and even original trilogy SE bashers, it's just a matter that no one story arc will ever be able to please everyone. I'm certain my or other fan-fics that change the established EU timeline wouldn't be liked by everyone, especially people who have adopted the EU as the official timeline following or preceding the movies.

 

Now that said, I wouldn't presume to bash the NJO either because that is someone else's hard work and the realization of their dream nor would I say anything against people who like this series. Personally, I can't stand the NJO, as a concept and as the individual set of events and stories that have been develoed within it. I have the NJO encyclopedia webpage where I've read all their currently available fully detailed synopsis of every NJO novel up to Remnant. So I have a fairly good general knowledge of the NJO and it's just not my taste. Again, as a SW fan-fic writer I am very supportive of both the official EU and fan-created writings wether or not I like the stories and encourage them to continue enriching the SW universe.

 

So my point as far as the original topic was concerned was that the games don't have to follow the EU timeline because the EU itself is an alternate universe to the real one as Lucas said himself. Unless you are making games which are specifically following a EU story arc or an arc related to an existing EU timeline then yes, by all means have the game follow a sense of continuity, otherwise there's pretty much complete freedom to take the post-RotJ timeline wherever they want as long as they don't contradict/interfere with anything in the movies.

[Solbe M'ko]

I'd like to agree with you that the EU is separate from the movies, but I just can't do it.

There were too many loose ends in the movies that the EU explains (or tries to) like for example (I'm only using the original trilogy for my eg.s, by the way):

 

-What were the clone wars? Who were the sith?

 

-What's a corellian?

 

-What was the republic?

 

-How come han solo wears imperial boots?

 

-Why did Jabba hate Solo so much?

 

I just think that if we left these questions unanswered, it would be a waste of a good opportunity to be creative.

 

Plus the most important question of all: Then what?

 

This debate is going to on for some time, methinks. Good thing, too.

[Burrie]

Archonon, Prime, allow me to say for a moment that you two are amongst the civilized "EU-basher"(and I'd hestitate to even call you folks that) I have yet to talk to... you did your research, it showed you didn't like it, but don't proceed to bash the EUers because of it. Cheers!

 

Now Archonon, to indeed get back to topic...

 

So my point as far as the original topic was concerned was that the games don't have to follow the EU timeline or because the EU itself is an alternate universe to the real one as Lucas said himself. Unless you are making games which are specifically following a EU story arc or an arc related to an existing EU timeline then yes, by all means have the game follow a sense of continuity, otherwise there's pretty much complete freedom to take the post-RotJ timeline wherever they want as long as they don't contradict/interfere with anything in the movies.

 

Ah, the much-vaunted and often-quoted "parallel universe" line from George Lucas... I've read so many debates in which it was brought up that it ain't even funny... although I was preparing a rather lengthy post about that little tidbit, I decided -to keep things a bit civilized- to stray away from discussing that particular quote

 

In any case, to return to the original topic at hand, my personal opinion is that the Jedi Academy game should follow the EU timeline, one way or the other. Now the last time I checked the timeline, Jedi Academy pretty much takes place during a rather quiet period, so pretty much anything can happen. Jedi Outcast managed to keep its story well within the current timeline without damaging the EU much. They can pretty much do anything at this point, and I seriously see no reason why they should hurt the timeline. Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Mysteries of the Sith and Jedi Outcast showed how you can have a compelling storyline whilst adding it to the timeline without a problem. MotS actually managed to explain what Mara was doing during the entire "Dark Empire" story arc.

 

Plus, the continuity editors(and the EU fans) can do wonders to explain any error away in the timelines.

 

The biggest problem so far is they we're creating our very own character with various pathways to choose(this same problem applies to KotOR as well). I am really wondering how the EU folks are going to handle this one. They will prolly take one outcome, create their very own padawan, declare it the official arc whilst all other outcomes will be seen as "infinities" in the official timeline. They pretty much did the same with Jedi Knight.

[Archonon]

As I mentioned, the fact of wether or not the EU is separate or not from the movies is relative. To you it isn't, to me it is because I follow what Lucas said about the EU.

 

Despite wether you like them or not the prequels answer at least some of the questions you posted. And that is the absolute true answer because they came from the source. Some questions such as the Jabba thing are explained in the original trilogy itself, if the EU has developed that Jabba has a "hatred" for Han other than because Han dumped the shipment he was smuggling for Jabba as established in Ep.4 then that I don't buy at all, whatever it may be. Remember that as much as we'd like everything answered and in a nice wrapped package that will never be the case of any story.

 

As for the all important question: Then what? Well then it's up to you to formulate for yourself what happens. As Lucas leaves it, the galaxy enters into a new golden age of peace, Luke will reestablish the Jedi as guardians of the galaxy and the Dark Side was destroyed by Anakin's sacrifice and bringing balance to the Force. That's where the story ends, there is no more.

 

But as everyone wants there to be more (myself included) form your own conclusion as to what happened. Wether it is the EU or the complete opposite that's the brilliance of SW you can make with it what you want and take from it your own unique interpretation of the story and where it goes.

 

Oh and thanks for the complement Burrie. I have felt the burn of criticism as an amateur writer myself, not because of anything particulalry wrong with my early work but because of dislike for the content of the storyline. So I am quite sensitve to the personal tastes of writers and readers alike, as I hope everyone is. If you don't like something you can say why but there is no need to say it isn't good just because it wasn't to your taste.

[Solbe M'ko]

Burrie, you're right, but even JO didn't follow exactly, there were a few problems with that game's continuity to the EU storyline (Bespin, etc.)

 

Archonon, you're right too. You can look at SW just in what you see in the movies and build from there and enjoy it just as much. The only problem with that is when you go to make a computer game series, you really only have 6 games to make, one for each episode.

 

Very good arguments all 'round, me thinks.

[Luc Solar]

The point I tried to make a while back is that very few people have ever even heard of EU. I heard about it a year ago on these forums and I've collected the little figures in the 80's and watched every Star Wars movie a gazillion times ffs! Whether or not EU or NJO is great literature is irrelevant.

 

The point is that people who like the movies are going to buy the game and they buy the game because they get to do and see stuff from the movies.

 

Try telling George Lucas that he should make a SW-movie but forget about Stormtroopers and use Yuushan Vong instead.

 

You know what he would say? Here's what:

 

George Lucas: "Vuushi Heuyong? What's that? Kung fu?"

 

I'm sure that meeting the Solo twins would be cool to all those 3 people who have a) read and b) liked the book/s in question but you have to face it: To every potential buyer that knows his EU there are a million "casual Star Wars fans" out there who will get JA when it comes out and be really pissed if they don't get to do & see the Canon-stuff.

 

Ok. Sorry for interrupting and getting slightly off topic. Carry on.