StormHammer Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Hmmm...no one seems to have really discussed what the bots in MP might be like this time around. I know it's not of much concern to those who play most of their time online...but for those of us with laggy connections, Bot matches are a necessary source of enjoyment. Now, the reason why I raise this issue is that the bots in JO had some problems - still do, as a matter of fact, and here's an example of why... BTW...Blackbow is me. Now, the problem with certain maps, notably Nar Shaddaa and Warring Factions, for example, is that the bots are pretty useless at navigating the walkways. When they hit someone coming in the opposite direction, they start bunny-hopping until they fall off. Or they make a jump too far. This is one element of MP bots that I hope we will see corrected in JA, to alleviate some of the silliness on certain maps. Either that...or I think certain maps should be tagged as not bot friendly. I mean, I don't mind seeing a bot miss the mark occasionally - that seems more realistic. But when they consistenty jump and fall (suicides), it's a bit silly, not to mention frustrating in Team FFA, when you've hit 19 kills out of 20, and within 5 minutes your down to -10 or something. Are there any other MP bot issues that people would like to see addressed in JA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer Are there any other MP bot issues that people would like to see addressed in JA? Proabably the biggest issue is that bots simply weren't tough enough. It doesn't take very long to learn how to beat them consistently. I hope they are more challenging this time around. The AI in SP was much better, and I wonder why this intelligence couldn't be ported to MP. Also, I'd like to be able to specify what weapons are available to each bot. I'd like to specify that stormtroopers can't use lightsabers, and so on. Then you could create battles that seem a little closer to the movies. To comment on what you were saying about bots and maps, bot routes need to be better in general. One thing I hated about dueling with bots was that they would fight for a bit, and then they would just run around a set pattern in the map. You basically had to chase them to get them to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 19, 2003 Author Share Posted April 19, 2003 Good points raised. Continuing on the Team FFA aspect...the thing I've also noticed is that the Bots don't really have any team-oriented intelligence. For example, you could be running toward an enemy...and you see your bot team-mate going in the opposite direction. In UT, you always have like a flanker, who follows you around and 'watches your back', and I miss this kind of thing in JO, so I hope they do a rethink on how bots should behave in team matches, including giving them specific commands so that you can work on some proper strategies. I know it will never replace having proper human team-mates online...but I think they can still give the bots better behaviour in team situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Quite true. A little coordination between units would go a long way to improving the difficulty. Maybe some of this could be moved into regular FFA as well? I know that everyone would be "out for themselves", but what if some bots teamed up on some of the higher scoring players? A little off topic, but I wish with Team FFA that skins didn't have such drastically different colours from their regular counterparts. Why have a completely blue or red stormtrooper? It takes away from the realism of the game. Surely there is a better way to distinguish between sides without the big colour differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 20, 2003 Author Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by Prime A little off topic, but I wish with Team FFA that skins didn't have such drastically different colours from their regular counterparts. Why have a completely blue or red stormtrooper? It takes away from the realism of the game. Surely there is a better way to distinguish between sides without the big colour differences. Why off topic? We're discussing bots and everything to do with them aren't we? Personally I agree with you...having your character and saber turn red or blue for either team is a little annoying at times - especially considering we get the symbol over the head business as well. It's a bit hard not to tell who you're shooting at when they've got a glowing symbol stuck to the top of their head. I'd like to be able to retain my skin and saber colour...and retain the coloured symbol. Maybe have a coloured belt or something - just a small flash of red or blue on the character up close. And maybe they should install some safety rails on the walkways - the number of suicides shown above doesn't represent all of them - because they were obviously shooting their way back up to 0 again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Well one time I was bored out of my mind and decided to fire up a botmatch... on FFA Nar Streets I focused on using weapons such as thermals and blasters (all varieties), when I came to the conclusion that I was actually getting more bored after an hour I noticed I had 300 kills and only about 20 of them were from pushing people off edges... I can say this for the bots, they may be rubbish on most maps, especially really confined ones like Raven, but on Nar Streets if i'm only getting 300 kills in an hour they must be doing something right. They are also very good at using force push to push back projectiles, in this respect their reflexes are annoyingly flawless. The main problem i've noticed is that they tend to form saber huddles of 5 or more bots which makes them very easy targets for a human player, but not once have I seen a bot launch a flechette barrage at a group of players and walk away with an easy bunch of kills. It seems they are only interested in 1 vs 1 combat, they never take the really big opportunities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truthful Liar Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 LOL @ pic. :] Q3 bots weren't particularily smart either, they just had superb accuracy and quick movements. The JK2 bots have the same kind of intelligence as well, although not particularily clever in regards to actually moving around maps which is probably due to the fact that bot routes in JK2 maps probably weren't of the best kind. If you loaded the same bots in a map like nar streets you would find most of them falling off (if you shot them). This is why you don't find many maps in Q3 that have thing ledges which is a reason to consider working on better map layouts for JK3. Hopefully, better built maps with better bot routes will solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 i for one think bots r a must for xbox if u don't have xbox live. i agree with u though the ones in jo were stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer especially considering we get the symbol over the head business as well. I remember playing a Team FFA or CTF game and someone was running behind a wall, and all I could see was the big symbol over his head. I was thinking, "oh yeah. That thing was a great idea". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iblis Reborn Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 the thing that bugged me about the bots is they never took advantage of their force power like they should all the light side used was mind trick and all the dark side used was drain lightning and grip (in really predictable ways like was said already) using push and pull and jump and kick would really help with the realism when i play against them they are always running away too they just run their route and hit me when im in the way and thats it your not a target your an obstacle to get passed it seems well thats what i can think about now but im sure theres more they arent horrible or anything but there is lots of room for improvement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer Why off topic? We're discussing bots and everything to do with them aren't we? Personally I agree with you...having your character and saber turn red or blue for either team is a little annoying at times - especially considering we get the symbol over the head business as well. It's a bit hard not to tell who you're shooting at when they've got a glowing symbol stuck to the top of their head. I'd like to be able to retain my skin and saber colour...and retain the coloured symbol. Maybe have a coloured belt or something - just a small flash of red or blue on the character up close. And maybe they should install some safety rails on the walkways - the number of suicides shown above doesn't represent all of them - because they were obviously shooting their way back up to 0 again... try playing a FF team match. or trying to see who is on your team ccross the map. the icon isn't enough. the saber helps because it is bright. but thing is when its going fast and furious, its very hard to tell who is friend or foe. every little bit of color helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneWingedAngel Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Normally the reason that bots seem to run in the same ways and patterns, is because every time a map is made, you have to tell the bots what to do. Bots always have to think logically, so they always go for the shortest way, or the easiest way, never the way with the least people. There's not much else that they can do... I'd much rather be playing with these bots than playing Pong against their "bot". I don't really care what they do with the bots, because they accomplish their purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 20, 2003 Author Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I remember playing a Team FFA or CTF game and someone was running behind a wall, and all I could see was the big symbol over his head. I was thinking, "oh yeah. That thing was a great idea". Hmmm...yes I can see your point there. It doesn't really allow you to hide from view. Originally posted by Iblis Reborn the thing that bugged me about the bots is they never took advantage of their force power like they should all the light side used was mind trick and all the dark side used was drain lightning and grip (in really predictable ways like was said already) using push and pull and jump and kick would really help with the realism Yes, I've noticed that too. They could do a better job of mixing and matching Force powers for each bot character, and ensure they use the full range at their disposal. Originally posted by Rumor try playing a FF team match. or trying to see who is on your team ccross the map. the icon isn't enough. the saber helps because it is bright. but thing is when its going fast and furious, its very hard to tell who is friend or foe. every little bit of color helps I find it hard to tell up close when you've got 5 or 6 bots going at it with lightning flying everywhere. But that's just me. I do take your point about distinguishing team-mates at distance. It's somewhat alleviated if you can get your hands on the disruptor rifle and zoom in - it's the only really effective long range weapon anyway, apart from the rocket launcher (as long as they don't see the rockets coming). I think this is another good reason for bringing back the overhead map to the game - so you can see at a glance where your team-mates are positioned. Even a pair of binoculars would help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor try playing a FF team match. or trying to see who is on your team ccross the map. the icon isn't enough. the saber helps because it is bright. but thing is when its going fast and furious, its very hard to tell who is friend or foe. every little bit of color helps Can't you identify them by putting the targeter over them? This should bring up who they are. I can't remember if this is really the case, so maybe someone can confirm this. If not, perhaps have it turn red for one team and blue for the other, and then their name just above. To me, the big icon just looks silly and distracting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 20, 2003 Author Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Can't you identify them by putting the targeter over them? This should bring up who they are. Yep...it does. The crosshair also turns green or red depending on whether they are friend or foe - but when there's a group of them together, it's hard to single one out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 i agree with Iblis Reborn if u. if they fell they wouldn't use force jump or ne thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 I tried fighting bots a few times. All they do is run backwards. A few blue lunges or kicks and they're dead...*if* you're able to catch those chickens, that is Some bots seem to have pretty good aim, though... Desann and Luke shot me dead from ~full health with primary fire of the stormtrooper rifle - while I was in mid-air, jumping! (diagonally from their POW) Oh yeah, almost forgot: what the hell is up with bots and those lag- I mean.. force fields? Bots reeeeaallly like force fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 20, 2003 Author Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar Oh yeah, almost forgot: what the hell is up with bots and those lag- I mean.. force fields? Bots reeeeaallly like force fields. LOL Yeah, I noticed that too. You can guarantee every game you see a force field go up...and they really pick some stupid places to activate them...like in the middle of the main area in Bespin, so you can just walk around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taekwondo joe Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 i dont about you guys, but i would love to see improvement in the ai, bots are way to easy to kill, and i hardly ever get killed unless i am gained up on with missel launchers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Posted by StormHammer Yep...it does. The crosshair also turns green or red depending on whether they are friend or foe - but when there's a group of them together, it's hard to single one out... Ah, good point. Posted by Luc Solar tried fighting bots a few times. All they do is run backwards. Yep, this is what I was refering to in my first post. Most annoying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 26, 2003 Author Share Posted April 26, 2003 Originally posted by taekwondo joe i dont about you guys, but i would love to see improvement in the ai, bots are way to easy to kill, and i hardly ever get killed unless i am gained up on with missel launchers Being an average player...I find some bots really easy, and some harder. I do die in some saber fights, especially when there's a lot of lightning and drain being used. The Chiss seems tricky sometimes. Overall, though, I think there's a lot of room for AI improvement in bot matches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 Haha yeah the bots can be a pain in the ass only if they use lightning all the way... It's very annoying, desann uses it excessevly! (sp?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace_sundancer Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 *make bots use character specific weapons *make not all gun-nuts incredibly tough. lando is nearly invincible whenever i play him *make bots not run backwards some q3 and ef bots had this problem too... *make bots use more force powers *make bots restricted to force use or non-force use more rigidly. why does jan use sabers and the force in mp, yet lando doesn't and nor does the ugnaught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 *why? *Lando and Kyle are easy to beat *I run backwards *Agreed *Let bots use everything the player can use, the idea is that they can mimic a human player... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taekwondo joe Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 lando is eay as cobbler to beat, just do this; pull out your saber, get as close as you possibly can, and watch him get blown away by his own gun, really fast, lando never used the saber, making him easy to beat. now stormhammer, for desann, desann is mostly all lightning, so use force absorb, so when he trys to drain, or fry your butt, it wont work, and you can easaly go for the kill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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