Guest Krayt Tion Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 And you will notice that no where does this mean the levels themselves, from start to finish, won't be completely linear. Unless I'm mistaken, that only refers to the order in which you can play the levels. Please don't be fooled. Those expecting a Deus Ex-type of open-end approachability to the levels themselves are setting themselves up for a disappointment. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 Deus Ex was pretty linear too!! It had 3 ends, ok, and you could do a lot of submissions, ok, but still it was very linear... But that's not a bad thing!! I don't expect JA to be linear either, but I don't care! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 what the heck is that stuff, linear, and non linear. and no lematos i'm not going to look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Originally posted by Blademaster_109 what the heck is that stuff, linear, and non linear. and no lematos i'm not going to look it up. Well, really you should look it up. Just this once...Linear usually means you are confined to one set path through a level with little deviation allowed - so you basically follow a single line. Non-linear means you have more options to take one of perhaps several different pathways through a level, or solve puzzles in different ways. Obviously all levels have a start and end point, so there is still some linearity inherent in level design - but the more options the better. Personally, I do think that each level will be less linear than those seen in JO. If they are opening up the terrain and introducing abilities that will enable you to basically run up a wall, that will open up some new pathways and combat decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapaca Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Linear or not, I like the idea of being able to choose which missions to take. I still have yet to see a "truly non-linear" game. I mean, just think if it wasn't linear, you'd constantly be getting lost. Or you would have so much mission information you'd 1.Not read it and be in the same boat. or 2.Read all of it and know exactly what to do. "linear." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 I was not aware, oh wise one, that you had a secret hand in level design and knew that JA will non have non-linear levels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer Well, really you should look it up. Just this once...Linear usually means you are confined to one set path through a level with little deviation allowed - so you basically follow a single line. Non-linear means you have more options to take one of perhaps several different pathways through a level, or solve puzzles in different ways. Obviously all levels have a start and end point, so there is still some linearity inherent in level design - but the more options the better. Wow you're a really patient guy!! I know forums where this guy would've been flamed to death And yes, I doubt that there will be non-linear levels, as for the order you play the missions: I'm curious how they plan to do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krayt Tion Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Meh. Of course I don't know how it will play in the end. That said, Raven doesn't have either the desire, time, or talent to approach Deus Ex quality. Probably the last two masquerading as the first one. If I'm wrong I will be... wrong. Oh the horror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Originally posted by Krayt Tion That said, Raven doesn't have either the desire, time, or talent to approach Deus Ex quality. Probably the last two. To be fair...Deus Ex levels were designed with a number of factors taken into consideration, not least of which was the ability to move stealthily through large portions of the game. As stealth will not really be playing any part in JA, there is less of a need to ensure the player can bypass certain obstacles and enemies, so in those terms I do expect pathways to be more limited and less complex. However, they could still provide a choice of pathways in confined areas, and allow complete freedom of movement in large open areas of terrain if they desired. I certainly hope we won't have the same situation of dropping down a hole, or falling a short way, and not having the option (as in a route) to get back up again. 'Game Over' screens due to some lack of foresight in design can get annoying, and that's one of the reasons why I like JK's level design more. In JK you usually had a way out, and didn't have to keep reloading. If they can make the levels more meandering and player friendly in JA, I think I'll enjoy it a whole lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro The Hutt Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 I agree with Stormhammer, in terms of level design I also tend to like JK more, every situation you got yourself in, you could also get yourself out of again.(also, in terms of SW realism it had it's points where it towered above JKII) In JO I found myself dropping all too often down some hopelessly deep pit. And then having to wait ten seconds to get back into the level didn't help much either, in JK you just had to hit load game and boom , you're back in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Oh eh... I found myself falling in bottomless pits more in JK than JO!!! Some parts in JK level design were so bad, I think the things you did in JO were way more realistic. JK felt like a maze to me at some points Although I allways knew where to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer Well, really you should look it up. Just this once...Linear usually means you are confined to one set path through a level with little deviation allowed - so you basically follow a single line. Non-linear means you have more options to take one of perhaps several different pathways through a level, or solve puzzles in different ways. Obviously all levels have a start and end point, so there is still some linearity inherent in level design - but the more options the better. Personally, I do think that each level will be less linear than those seen in JO. If they are opening up the terrain and introducing abilities that will enable you to basically run up a wall, that will open up some new pathways and combat decisions. thanks storm hammer. this game should be non-linear. it funner that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 although the plot in deus ex had to be linear (but they did do a VERY good job of disguising it with little differences based on how you played (characters you saved appearing later etc...) and the dialogue reflecting your actions). The levels however were very non-linear... with numerous ways through each level (take the sewers and go under, blast your way through, sneak into the air ducts and bypass everyone etc...) While i agree that the lack of stealth will reduce the need for non-linearity to reach deus ex proportions, JO had the most linear, confined, contrived levels i have seen in an FPS for years... corridor... open door... corridor... (plus the terrible, tacked on puzzles). It seems that this time they have decided they couldn't match the coolness of the environmental puzzles in JK, so they aren't even trying (probably a good thing). but JK still has the best level design of any game ever. period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 JK, best level design ever? Eh, I have to disagree. It was fairly non-linear for the time, but just as linear as JO for today. The puzzles were cool, as was enemy placement. It can't hold up with more modern games, especially ones by God Warren Spector, like Deus Ex, System Shock 2 and the Thief series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 I still have yet to see a "truly non-linear" game. Wing Commander: Privateer Well, not until you start the true story, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Deus Ex: Invisible War is supposed to be the first truely, totally non-linear game. Mind you there is never going to be a game where a storyline can be made up on the fly, that is impossible. Instead all you have is a larger number of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 It's not impossible, it's just the amount of content you'd have to create to allow such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Yes... and in case of being a Jedi (like JA), it means you can fly to all systems and solve problems there Keep on dreaming. I don't mind linear games, as long as the gameplay is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Originally posted by toms ... JO had the most linear, confined, contrived levels i have seen in an FPS for years... corridor... open door... corridor... (plus the terrible, tacked on puzzles). ... While I think that JKII was fairly linear - some levels more than others - it wasn't the most linear game last year, let alone 'ever'. What was more linear? Medal of Honor Allied Assault, for one. There was one snow level that had some possibility for non-linearity, but don't confuse open space for non-linearity. And, when in doubt just check the compass. Worse yet was Soldier of Fortune II, which I think wins for 'most linear game of 2002'. They were so afraid of you getting lost in the already overly linear levels that if you stood still for a couple of seconds you'd be sure to have people firing at you - but only from the direction you should be travelling ... The distinction between non-linear levels and non-linear missions and a non-linear plot are important. Non-linear levels give you choices as to how best to accomplish a task. This is a challenge to the game engine and map size (i.e. load times) Non-linear missions vary the way the plot develops, and are a challenge to game designers as you have to think about the interaction of plot and character development. A non-linear plot is very difficult to implement, and needs a very strong structural backbone. That is, you need some basic thesis that can handle changes based on what a character does, when they do it and how they do it, and allows the entire 'course of history' to be altered based on your decisions. An example of a non-linear plot? Imagine when you and Luke fight the reborn together on Cairn, that you could turn on him, kill him, take over the academy and rule the new republic! I know that killing Luke would never happen in a LEC game, but think abot the plot and gaming implications ... you could actually be approaching the mythic 'open ended game', where there are strong plot possibilities but no defined plotline, and that only by looking back can you see the plot. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Sides, non-linear gameplay isn't that critical to the fun factor of the game. I've played a lot of games where the game is TOO non-linear and is basically a random mission generator without any plot. If the basic gameplay is "da bomb", you can play thru the game multiple times without getting bored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Non-linear levels are very critical to gameplay. Very. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Nah, most of the best games of all time are linear. It's just a plus in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Nah, most of the best games of all time are linear. It's just a plus in my book. ... there's a line somewhere between having linear levels and feeling like you're playing a FPS 'on rails'. I played RtCW and knew it was linear, but it wasn't bothersome. MoHAA got bothersome in places - way too linear. SoFII was obnoxiously linear - took away from the game. Paue, wait to be shot at, go that way, wait to be shot at, go that way ... and so on ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Most of the best games, eh? I have to disagree. Going by PC Gamer's recent top 50 of all time, Half-Life is number one, which is non-linear. The DF/JK series is number five, and they were non-linear by the standards and constraints of maps of their times. Other games like Fallout also weren't linear. Deus Ex is also number 10, which is very non-linear. System Shock 2 is on there too, which is extremely non-linear like Deus Ex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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