Fate, destiny, and coincidence

[Rad707_Pandaz]

Have you ever had that feeling? That little sensation at the back of your brain you feel when something familiar comes along. Can you ever think of an event that triggered that feeling, but you don't know why? Ever had a slight feeling of deja vu? It's happened to me, tons of times. Sometimes its really weird, like this one time where I dreamed I saw the starship Enterprise getting beat down, but I didn't think much of it. Then a day later, I'm playing Star Trek: Bridge Commander and the exact same image on the screen was exactly in my dream.

 

My first year of high school: I was going to go to a new school and I had NO idea what the inside looked like. Then I had a dream that I was in some room and I was looking at some sort of cabinet on the floor. I didn't know what the heck it was at the time. A month later, I start high school. I was walking into my Physical Science classroom when I saw the Safety Eyeglass cabinet on the floor. And I realized that the exact same image, the angle of my eyes, the position my view was...were the exact same in my dream. This has happened many times, and then when I'm casually talking with some friends, they say they've had deja vu too. I think it happens to alot of people.

 

If that wasn't enough, I've had too many coincidences the past few years to call them "coincidences". Like this one time where I bought some groceries and decided to pick up a magazine too. The total cost was around $10.48 and I only had 10 dollars. I thought I was about to face an embarassing situation when I reached into my pocket and found 50 cents. The 50 cents' origin was from a day before when I bought lunch, I was going to empty out my pockets that night but decided against it. Now the 50 cents has paid for my groceries. I've also noticed other things.

 

I'm starting to believe that every action we do is predetermined. But you don't truly notice these "coincidences" until you figure out why they are there. I've figured it out though. These predetermined events are here to teach you. You leave some money in your pants, forget about it, put your pants in the washer, your money is now messed up. You just learned to always take your money out of your pants when you take them off. Some guy pulls a knife out on you, then "coicidentally" a flower pot falls on him and you get away. That event is there to teach you to value life.

 

My friend told me the other day,"Sometimes, I feel that my actions are scripted." This event occured to suggest that there is no coincidence. I was eating at a chinese restaurant and i opened my fortune cookie. I don't clearly remember what the fortune said, but it was along the lines of,"Events in your life are there to teach you a lesson". This occurred so that I don't forget what i've already told you all. Anyways, I've spouted off long enough, you guys tell me something.

[SkinWalker]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

-- Carl Sagan, Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (1997) p. 60

 

I'd say that there is a logical explanation for your "feelings" of deja vu. Most likely they are related to chemical releases and reuptakes in the brain. Intuition is often mistaken for ESP, telekinesis, pre-cognition, etc., but in the end, there has been absolutely NO hard evidence of any of it. Only anecdote.

 

Of course, you may be the first Though experience teaches me to be skeptical.

[Rad707_Pandaz]

True, there is no hard evidence. Actually, I don't even think easy-going evidence exists. I'm still stumped on how John Edward does his thing but it seems possible to fake. Ouji or whatever boards, are also fake. It's been scientifically proven that they are fake. I saw it on Penn & Teller. They blindfolded the people and had them communicate on the board. Then when a producer flipped the board over , upside down. The people were putting the cursor on places they "thought" were Yes's and no's, but the places were actually on the opposite side of the board.

[C'jais]

Deja vus are mistaken for precognitive dreams. In reality, that dream never took place, but you're dead certain it did once you're in it.

 

Of course, past experience could be wrong. If you really wanted to prove your ability to see the future, you should write down your dreams.

 

Is there such a thing as choice? I don't know, but as it would seem nothing is affected without a cause, there has to be an infinite chain of causes that we cannot see, yet we're able to see it's effects. As thus, everything is running on "scripts", even our emotions.

[munik]

Originally posted by Rad707_Pandaz

I'm still stumped on how John Edward does his thing but it seems possible to fake.

There was some t.v. show that showed how those and other scams work. I believe how his works is that people who work for the show stand in line with other audience members (incognito) as they wait to enter, and talk about dead relatives and such. Then they relate these stories to the host, and the audience members chair legs are marked with colored tape in a subtle spot. This is how he matches the story up with the audience member. I didn't catch the whole show, my wife related it to me, but be sure that it is a scam, he isn't talking to dead people or the like.

 

I also saw the ouji episode of Penn and Tellers aptly named show, Bullsh*t. Good show, I watch it alot.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by Rad707_Pandaz

You leave some money in your pants, forget about it, put your pants in the washer, your money is now messed up. You just learned to always take your money out of your pants when you take them off.

 

But YOU told us that if you would have always taken your money out of your pants when you take them off that you wouldn't have been able to pay for your groceries.

 

I dont think that you forget to take the money out of your pants in order to teach you a lesson about remembering to do it. I think that you learn to take the money out of your pants as a result of the time you accidentally let your money run through the wash. WE learn from our mistakes because we are inteligent creatures (sort of),we dont make mistakes because destiny wants to teach us a lesson.

 

Although 98% of the time money run through a washing machine ends up fine.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Rad707_Pandaz

I'm still stumped on how John Edward does his thing but it seems possible to fake.

 

He's an actor. And not a very good one, either. The people that go into his show want to believe, and so are less likely to be skeptical.... Munik's version of how to fake is it but one way, but I had come up with the hypothesis, after putting myself in his shoes (now if I want to dupe a bunch of people on television....), that he had a team of researchers in the back that checked people in the audience. I'll bet most of the tickets are sold through the mail, which gives the con artist TONS of information like name, address, etc.

 

Then it's just a matter of putting the researchers on the job, checking obituaries and within their own "psychic friends" network, where all the con artists share info on their marks (most people frequent more than one "psychic"). Match this up with their assigned seat, and voila!

 

Or its even simpler: all or part of the audience is fake. It is, afterall, television.

[Homuncul]

I have a better idea although just an idea

 

If Rad707_Pandaz says he saw those things and explained his own observations than I say he's not mistaken and I believe him. And deja vu is not really a precognitive thing and it's not completely a fake, merely a quantum connection through your brain to "other times selves". If multiverse decision making mechanism is assumed than it's a most interesting thing to think about because it explains not only space to be multiverse but also time which brings me to explaining how it actually can happen to anyone and probably did happen. If you're connected to your clones through space multiverse why you can't be connected to the time multiverse also so having contact to your future selves from different times due to some fluctuations or something like that (I don't really know how and noone does). Further more you're connected to the other times of your clones (unconsciously of course and that is the reason why you don't get it). So when you experience deja vu it means that either you had a connection lately to your other times selves and remembered a vision or you saw some event and ocasionally a connection was established and you thought you saw it before which probably could be called a glitch of multiverse. And there's another aspect of it...

 

If you also have contact with your other times clones than you would probably see things there that will never happen to you. So it's really always a probability of what you may experience in future.

 

If that connection was infinite than probably we could call it fate with amendment of course that free will still exists there. There are many things you see while you're dreaming. Some you remember some you don't. If fate existed (infinite connection) than you would probably knew almost everything in your future life being a walking oracle but still you'd be limited and predestined to make mistakes due to probabilistic aspect of such prescience. I don't believe in classical fate because of these ideas. Still it's only a belief, I'll wait another perhaps 30 years to see a proof for that (it's very young direction in scienec but very promising).

 

I' m not sure about effect of dream, maybe unconsciousness works better when consciosness is asleep. And I think that such ideas are really worth to think cauze we sometimes misjudge some fundamental things like time, fate while we must be able to deal with them properly for better explanation of our reality.

[munik]

Used to be that someone would be able to bring up religion in almost any topic.

 

You have the distinction of being able to bring up the multiverse in almost every topic. I like the alternate angle you provide on topics, and the fact that I can't get Jet Li out of my head everytime I read the word "multiverse".

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Homuncul

I have a better idea although just an idea

merely a quantum connection through your brain to "other times selves".

 

Poppycock.

 

While there are several multiverse theories that hold up, mathematically, there is absolutely no solid theory of "quantum connection" to other "selves" that I've seen. If there is, please cite the literature for me.

 

The most likely theory of the multiverse puts our other "self" at over 10^28 meters away (or some other large number... I can never memorize it). For a quantum connection to exist, the nuclear force (I'm assuming that the other two forces, gravity and electromagnetic aren't what you're referring to) would need to be significant enough to be easily measured, to say the least, and likely more significant than our own star.

 

Originally posted by Homuncul

...clones through space multiverse why you can't be connected to the time multiverse also so having contact to your future selves from different times due to some fluctuations or something like that

 

Religion makes a better case with more evidence than this

 

Originally posted by Homuncul

(I don't really know how and noone does).

 

No sh!t.

 

I recently read most of the current literature on the parallel universe/multiverse theories and don't pretend to understand it all, but I did grasp some of the basics. The stuff you're talking about just wasn't there. If there some primary literature that I should read, please post what journal to look in.

 

J. Garriga, V. F. Mukhanov, K. D. Olum and A. Vilenkin, Int. J. Theor. Phys. 39, 1887

(2000). - Garriga, et al, discuss sending messages to future civilizations.... They discuss very physical, container transported methods and make no mention of any "quantum connection."

 

Even in what little I understand about Hilbert space models of mulitverses, I see no reason or logic why anyone should have a "connection" of any type with their copies.

 

I think the mulitverse thing can be ruled out for deja vu/precognition explanations, but if you disagree, I'd be interested in reading more.

[Homuncul]

munik:

You have the distinction of being able to bring up the multiverse in almost every topic. I like the alternate angle you provide on topics, and the fact that I can't get Jet Li out of my head everytime I read the word "multiverse".

 

I just want people to know more about it. And the matter of fate is so much associative to me with these matters that I can't help myself. And I don't want to try and prove it here, just to note how really deeply our reality can be explained through these theories. Yet no proof so take it easy.

 

Pandaz:

J. Garriga, V. F. Mukhanov, K. D. Olum and A. Vilenkin, Int. J. Theor. Phys. 39, 1887

(2000). - Garriga, et al, discuss sending messages to future civilizations.... They discuss very physical, container transported methods and make no mention of any "quantum connection."

 

I only simplifyed the definition of microtubule's "quantum collapse" in which information from multiple universes is "collapsed" into a "conscious selection" or decision. Out of this you can get anywhere you want: deja vu, telekinesis, bilocation, telepathy and others. If you're interested try to read Hameroff and Penrose, they are the leaders in research. If looking for something easy to start with try Deutsch's Fabric of Reality 1997 (I don't know how many times I have preposed this book). Basic information on ORMUS materials, BEC's and microtubule you can find here:

 

http://www.lyghtforce.com/WhiteGold/ormus.htm

 

You can also read Parallel Universes Thread, there're lots of such stuff

[Homuncul]

I apologize for mixing names, just I'm getting nuts when someone asks me about my beloved multiverse:D

[Jah Warrior]

fatalism rocks

[SkinWalker]

In just doing a bit of casual reading, I've looked at some of Primrose's and Hameroff's theoretical work... I must say it is interesting. Counter-intuitive, but interesting nonetheless.

 

The problem I see so far, is that their theory on quantum consciousness relies upon the superposition of the "microtubules," tiny tubes made of a protein called tubulin. The problem is in how long it would be possible for them to remain in superposition before dechoherence.

 

The fastest nuerons tend to operate at around 10^-3 seconds, but another researcher (Tegmark, 2000) has done the numerical calculations that it appears Hameroff omitted. Using data about the brain's temperature, sizes of quantum objects, and ionic disturbances, he came up with decoherence of 10^-13 to 10^-20 seconds. It would appear that for quantum computers to exist in the brain, the temperature would have to be near absolute zero.

 

As for David Deutsch's book, I haven't picked it up yet, but I probably will. I did, however, read some "chatter" about his theories from other scientists... they appeared to have mixed feelings. His ideas certainly seem to fall prey to Occam's Razor as being a bit too complex.

 

A far simpler idea is that the next nearest universe lies in space at about 10^28 meters away, and that while nearly identical to ours, there are also striking differences due to large number (but finite) of decisions that each being makes each second of their lives. Given that space is infinite, it is reasonable to assume that an identical universe will exist since the number of decisions that can be made is finite, but it is doubtful that it is the first universe we would check if possible.

 

The idea that parallel universes are comparable to a stack of cards, in my opinion, creates more questions than gives answers. The idea that "quantum computers" or "quantum consciousness" can communicate with them is equally doubtful. It's a bit too close to science fiction than science and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Deutsch has a following of "New Agers."

 

But then again.... I could be wrong

 

I won't pretend to understand his math, but you can look at Tegmark's work:

Tegmark, Max (April 2002). Importance of quantum decoherencein brain processes. Physical Review E, Vol. 61, No. 4, pp. 4194-4206.

[Homuncul]

As I said it's out of proof yet. But as I've been studying it for quite a long time It's pretty convincing to me.

 

far simpler idea is that the next nearest universe lies in space at about 10^28 meters away, and that while nearly identical to ours, there are also striking differences due to large number (but finite) of decisions that each being makes each second of their lives. Given that space is infinite, it is reasonable to assume that an identical universe will exist since the number of decisions that can be made is finite, but it is doubtful that it is the first universe we would check if possible.

 

I gave up with this theory long ago and don't mean to come back. For me it's far simplier Deutsch's multiverse not even because we find an implicit evidence for that but because it explains our reality as deeper as ever. Deutsch's multiverse is not limited only by quantum mechanics it is deeply valid in genetics, theory of computation, epistemology and other. It also brings better understanding through conjunction of all these new theories trully bringing us out of classic quantum theory, genetics and computation. For me that is the essence if both theories are not yet considered proven I choose one that discribes better.

 

As for David Deutsch's book, I haven't picked it up yet, but I probably will. I did, however, read some "chatter" about his theories from other scientists... they appeared to have mixed feelings. His ideas certainly seem to fall prey to Occam's Razor as being a bit too complex.

 

Every theory related to quanta is complex parametrically but is not necessarily complex in explanation of reality. From that point of view his ideas are something everybody at least should know about. It's not that complex. His book I prepose (and he does also ) is like "multiverse for dummies". And there're of course reference on other very interesting books.

 

The idea that parallel universes are comparable to a stack of cards, in my opinion, creates more questions than gives answers. The idea that "quantum computers" or "quantum consciousness" can communicate with them is equally doubtful. It's a bit too close to science fiction than science and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Deutsch has a following of "New Agers."

 

You think it's hard for you to get it but it's really not. You judge it by the way the exterior of it looks while you should try and see what's inside. I got to read it ocasionally, I never ment to think about multiverse before. And I considered it science fiction for a long time myself.

And think about that. Everything concerning deepering of our reality always gives birth to more questions than answers. That's our growth of knowledge and it's not something we should be afraid of but something we should long for (if of course theory that carries these new questions explains better than the previus one)

And I believe Tegmark's work also and think that it'll only put some correctives in quantum connsciousness or would be proven wrong in time due to some property we haven't yet discovered. But the theory will survive. Thanks for Tegmark's work by the way, an interesting one.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Homuncul

Everything concerning deepering of our reality always gives birth to more questions than answers. That's our growth of knowledge and it's not something we should be afraid of but something we should long for (if of course theory that carries these new questions explains better than the previus one)

 

In that much, we certainly agree. I must say, it is refreshing to have a discussion, even a debate if you will, without the automatic invocation of gods and religions.

 

I fear that my own country and society is fast becoming stupid. Kids don't like going to school, we're "teaching to the test," college enrollments in the sciences is down for native born Americans, etc.....

 

Originally posted by Homuncul

Thanks for Tegmark's work by the way, an interesting one.

 

I agree... I would never have read it had I not read your post on Deutsch, et al. I do plan to read his book... perhaps this summer. I've got quite a stack of summer reading piling up! But another benefit of posting and reading in these forums is the education one can get simply by researching a topic to confirm or verify...

[Homuncul]

I fear that my own country and society is fast becoming stupid. Kids don't like going to school, we're "teaching to the test," college enrollments in the sciences is down for native born Americans, etc.....

 

The same with mine. I know exactly what you feel. I guess it is somehow a world tendency (Japan maybe an exception). I just don't get it. We live in time where our knowledge must grow in progression to what we knew say 50 years ago. If then we had to know 10 times more than say hundred years from that then now we have to study a lot more and know 100 times more than 50 years ago. And the further we go the more we must know. If 2000 thousands of years a man could possibly know anything in the world then now you couldn't know everything about genetics not mentioning biology as whole.

 

I can name perhaps one friend from my surroundings that does feel the necessity for knowledge. Other than with him I can't really debate on anything. Most of the "advanced" people can talk a bit on 70 years of communism (I guess native americans are the same story cauze they're communists too)(or impressionists). People don't understand what the word "culture" means. Especially russians cauze they know everything about how to make vodka or set something on fire or go camping or can fix anything with their hammer (mostly of course with bare hands) and mostly don't know much bout their own history not telling at all to answer a question who's Columbus or who wrote Don Quijot. They only know something that circulate in mass pop culture (they can answer that Bram Stocker wrote Dracula cauze the saw a movie). But that's not enough... it's the top of the iceberg while all of it's base and bigger part of it is hidden from them. They don't have this base.

 

And isn't our ability and will to gain knowledge a greatest gift ever? The world is playing with this ability. Most of it lives according to the law of natural selection: "use it or lose it". In my university I mostly study economics but if I encounter something new like biology, history or religion I go for it and just sit and won't get up till I get the result (an answer to the question). And it doesn't take much time or extreme effort, it's not an abuse, it's not boring at all. It's fun!

 

But another benefit of posting and reading in these forums is the education one can get simply by researching a topic to confirm or verify...

 

Sure. It's educative and exciting to debate. I'm like looking here for something that I missed in life

 

P.S. And I don't like tests either though I'm not very often to meet with them. In Russia a test is a set of questions with no variants of answers so there's no probability at all that you can pass it.

[Wudan]

What is truth? There is only the Experience and the Perception.

 

Truthfully, only the perception matters.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by wudan

What is truth? There is only the Experience and the Perception.

 

Truthfully, only the perception matters.

 

That's just how you perceive things.

 

But you don't really exist anyway, so why am I even typing this?

[Jah Warrior]

Well i wasnt sure how i felt about fate and all that jazz, so i held off from writing anything of great substance about it.

 

hmmmmz, I do get strange things ocurring and happening around me that i cant really explain. For instance I was sitting there trying to remember that film with Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway in it, (it was Bonnie & Clyde btw) and my mate just started whistling that tune called; You're so Vain (i forget who sung it originally) Now call it coincidence or whatever but that tune was written about Warren Beatty, I hadnt told him about that film and he had no idea he was in that film anyway, but just as i thought of it he whistled that tune none the less.

 

Is that a coincidence? maybe, but its definitely a bit funky...

 

Also I love the English language and it pleases me to find new and interesting words.

 

I remember reading Dr No by Ian Flemming and there was a word that I'd never noticed before "Chagrin" which apparently means annoyance or something similar. After i read that word and looked it up I noticed it in loads of places, it was really weird I heard it like 5-6 times in a week on TV. This was a word I'd not heard in 28 years before then. This happens with a lot of words that i pick up and i truly cannot explain it.

 

I put a lot of faith in logic, being as logic is a scientific thing, but fate defies logic as far as i can see, yet there is definitely some greater power (Not god) at work.

 

I think i'll read the bit in Sophies World about fatalism again and see what i can come up with

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

After i read that word and looked it up I noticed it in loads of places, it was really weird I heard it like 5-6 times in a week on TV. This was a word I'd not heard in 28 years before then. This happens with a lot of words that i pick up and i truly cannot explain it.

 

Yeah, I get this all the time.

 

I always took it to be me just not having paid attention to it before then.

[Jah Warrior]

I know what you mean Jais, but i really look into words, they fascinate me. I'm fairly certain I would notice these words. I'm highly observant, well as observant as a stoner can be anyway.

 

I really dont like teh idea that things are pre-ordained as it removes the necessity to try or to have goals, but I cjust cant dismiss these odd things that happen.

[Homuncul]

Coincidence? I think not

 

I say telepathy is a common thing in small amounts everybody possess. It has nothing to do with the divine power.

So Jah, while you were digging the song your brain ways transmitted the most intense informational process. It's like breathing if you gasp out the air strongly it can reach far distances. And you can't actually not to breath. And your mate was just adapting to the "conversation" with you like it's done in verbal conversation. When to people share a a talk they adapt to each like this: breath in tact to each other, their heart beat is almost the same, if one does a casual hand movement, his partner does something like that too. Of course it's funky, but I think not even scientist would debate about this. (watch me I didn't mention multiverse but I assumed it)

 

What's fate physically?

 

Por ejemplo, we've got Chewbacca who's going to touch this dead beast on a bush and lead himself and his friends to the ambush. He's thinking with his stomach and "decides" to taste the meat. But we know what's going to happen cauze we've seen it for 200 times. So we perceive it like fate for Chewbacca while he thinks he's deciding something on his own so that he has a freedom of will. (please no commentaries on how relevantly I can use a negative printed Chewbacca cauze it's an abstraction and so logically I can give any property to it). It's a main property of fate that I attribute to Chewbacca that he can't choose. Chewbacca here can't choose anything but tasting this beast (he hasn't got that in his script). But Chewbacca is blind to that, he's under the illusion that he's in control of his actions.

 

So what to do with that? For me it was really a trick of how anything in our universe can be explained a bit differently and necessarily deeper than it was before. That we need to abandon classical universe for better and deeper explanation of fate and free will and other fundamental aspects of our reality. Actually I've already discussed this problem and I thought to prove my point implicitly. But I don't want to gloom over people minds intentiously so if anyone is interested I can speak about it or you can find it here somewhere in SC.

 

What is truth? There is only the Experience and the Perception.

Truthfully, only the perception matters.

 

Again there's a word OBJECTIVE and a definition for it. Many people can't understand how being totally subjective we can describe anything as objective (to be true universally independently from us). I think any fundamental thing has the right to be called objective. This objectiveness in physics now is measured only by the accuracy of it's explanation and maybe accuracy of it's predictions (but predictions sometimes trick us). And they are not subjective because they're only electrical impulses interpreted by our brains and nothing we perceive s actually real. Everything's probabilistic and how probably accurate we can tell anything to be objective difines whether or not we can call it true. I think...

[Rad707_Pandaz]

Well.

 

The whole Multiverse idea is pretty good. It makes sense most of the time. Since if there are other dimensions that don't follow our dimension's physics...anything is possible. When you think about it...What is beyond our Universe? The universe is constantly expanding, thus it has a limit. If the universe was a sphere, than what the heck is beyond it. I think it may be a bigger world. Another universe that links all the universes together.

 

I still think that there's a certain part of the brain that most of us haven't tapped into. I'm not sure though, but it's plausible.

[Wanderer]

Some things that happen are 'scripted' in your life because that's the way it is. Other things can be influenced by you through your own will.

Your destiny lies in your hands after all.

That you're able to foresee things lies in our nature.

We are spiritual beings and you and your friens are the next generation. In future these abillities will show up more often by humans.

You know...when the teacher in school tells you that everything is based upon chemical and physical reactions, this hasn't to be the truth...

But you shouldn't be afraid of this. Live with it. And don't tell it too many people because most of the people can't deal with it.