Anti-american feelings?

[griff38]

Originally posted by <JOTD>Jedi Hunter

My mistake, I thought you were taking a shot at me. Sorry about that. You know you're very interesting. I really enjoy reading your opinions. So many valid points with many facts to back them up. Upon rereading your statement, I think my views have changed a bit. You make valid points. Anti Americanism is a problem. And we need to fix this. The war on Iraq I still believe was wrong. But I remain pleased that he's out of power.

 

 

Congrats to you my friend, that takes balls.

 

[/b]

ShockV1.89 http://www.americanstateterrorism.c.../Genocide2.html (do not click on it if a little bit of violence and harsh language offends you)

 

Now, I believe that it's websites and publications like this one that foster so much anti-americanism in the world. Read through this, and see if you can pick up on this guys slightly twisted report of what happened in Iraq.

[/b]

 

I don't think it's the websites & publications that foster anger to the US its the actions they report. Don't slay the messengers.

This person or persons obviously was very outraged at what is happening in the name of the USA.

And I have to tell you, most of the info is true. Many of those photos were posted in this forum by me as they happened.

[ShockV1.89]

What is true? The pictures? (which cant be denied). Or the authors description of what happened?

 

That's really what this thread is about. People twisting information to promote a certain viewpoint.

 

Read some of the text. Listen to the rhetoric he uses. "Demonic American baby killers laughing as they kill women and children with their satanic helicopters."

 

Perhaps you are intelligent enough to look past the coating into the real story. But not a lot of people are. That's my real beef here. The war in Iraq really was a waste, and had a lot of unnecessary casualities, this is true. But this guy makes it sound as though orders came right down from the president, saying "Kill those women and children. Aim for them!"

 

It presents an awful picture of the US military, who are just taking orders, and it doesnt really need that. People have a big enough problem with them as it is.

[Homuncul]

OK, you two 9/11 wasn't the best example, surely I can find at least one veteran or a familiy that lost their kids in the 1t war with Hussein and that'll be enough. In fact Al Qaeda had dealings with Saddam and that should be also enough.

 

So you agree then.

 

No I'm not agreed, this is the way I would do and become a terrorist myself literally. I say that such approach won't solve any problem, revenge will come up again and again and things between U.S and Iraq would become like with Israel and Palestine. Unfortunately for muslims - revenge is in their blood, but we have more reason than that. I'm not saying that I 'll forgive, that's the worst thing I will ever do. I just say that however egoistically it may sound you and I must restrain ourselves from counting victims in wars and judge it only by them.

 

hence the war is wrong.

 

the War is always wrong, but it happens, sometimes countries have no other choice. What U.S. did was pure economics and that's what's wrong with it. But Saddam's dictatorship is a good justification for me.

[fallen[fk]]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

The american military is not to blame in the slightest, after all they are doing a job that the government sent them to do and as should be expected they are doing it. And like you say they are just american people underneath the camo and american people are great folk.

 

The miltary cannot be held accountable for the decisions of a bad government.

 

You guys really need the democrats back in power unlikely as it may be. The republicans seem to go around blowing everyone up and the democrats come back and fix the economy and the international relations.

 

Clinton was the best thing to happen to the states in years, shame he cant have a 3rd 4th or 5th term.

 

I see it like this:- before bush seized power the u.s was the leader of the free world and now the government over there is "DICTATING" over the free world. It really does not feel like he wants to work WITH us rather than command us.

 

 

btw that article is baised bullsh!t even me a borderline communist can see that!

 

Sorry but Clinton wasn't the best thing that happened to our country. He made us the laughing stock of the world. He weakened our defenses, or do you not remember the bombing of the USS Cole and the World Trade Center? You think the WTC was bombed because of Bush? Sorry but that plan went into action long before George was elected. Clinton weakened our defense of our borders. It was easier to get into this country through both Mexico and Canada than it was for an American to visit other countries.

 

And what did Clinton do after the first bombing of the WTC and the bombing of the USS Cole? Yippy, he looked so nice and kind in his foriegn policy. And the terrorists took advantage of his hospitatlity. And as payback he launched a few cruise missiles into Afghanistan, do any of you even remember this? No? Why? Because it served NO PURPOSE. It accomplished nothing.

 

You think Clinton was solely responsible for the economic turn around in this country? That's like actually believing Al Gore fathered the internet. Anyone with a hint of economic knowledge knows of the fluctuations that are bound to happen in any open market. And don't forget, it was during clinton's administration that the dot com crash hit.

 

The only thing Clinton did was improve our health care system.

 

I mean come on, if he was so great why was there such a drastic turn around in the voting of this country. And I'm not talking about the Presidential Election debacle. I'm talking about Congress. The republican power base in congress nearly doubled.

 

Clinton wasn't a good president, he just filled a void. And frankly, I was for going into Iraq, if for nothing else than to get rid of a boil on the Earth named Saddam Hussein. He may not be dead, but he doesn't have the power he had before. And Al-Qaeda doesn't have the power they had before either. Say it's for Oil if you want to, say whatever you like, but no one's going to be able to convince me, and several friends I have that are Iraqi exiles, that the world is not a better place without him in power.

 

My only hope is that we can solidify their infastructure and give them hope for the future soon.

 

And if you think you can reason with terrorists, or make peace with terrorists, watch this video clip. Warning, this is a VERY graphic video that aired on al-jazeera, see what they did to this REPORTER, that's right a REPORTER, who are supposed to have freedom to report anything anywhere, who terrorists had used in the past to get their messages out, and look what they did to him and made him say.

Daniel Pearl Video

[El Sitherino]

just so you know bush was in office for many months before the world trade center attack.

 

that's adequate time to make a plan for an attack.

[fallen[fk]]

Originally posted by InsaneSith

just so you know bush was in office for many months before the world trade center attack.

 

that's adequate time to make a plan for an attack.

 

Oh really? The pilots they trained had been doing so for years. Know what the heck you're talking about. That plan went into action LONG before GW was in office. Some of the terrorists had been living in Florida for 5 years. And that doesn't explain the FIRST bombing of the WTC in the early 90's. Please, Bush's foriegn policy can never be blamed for anything pre and including 9/11.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

I on the other hand have morals and a conscience.

 

Jah, don't be so quick to take the moral high ground. I'm sure Homuncul has both a conscience and morals

 

Joshua: I don't think Clinton "weakened your defenses" so that terrorists could slip by unnoticed. Am I wrong in saying you think he's responsible for 9/11 due to "lax" security?

 

You must remember that border and anti-terror security had always been this low, and was more or less only raised drastically upon 9/11. If Bush had been in charge at that time, terrorists could, and would, still haven't got inside the country. All this talk about "weakenening defenses" sounds more like trying to attach a scapegoat to 9/11, when it's entirely unreasonable to blame Clinton, Bush or whoever.

 

I think you spend far too much on your military anyway, BTW - you do not need fear an invasion of your country anytime soon, and while all that hardware provides thousands of jobs, it's only serving to "liberate" the middle east currently.

 

While your country certainly did seem more friendly during the Clinton administration, one must not forget what it has done as well - bombing the medicine factory, and then sweeping it under the rug afterwards, for example. Oh, and Clinton had said numerous times that he thought military action was needed in Iraq as well.

 

All that, however, pales in comparison to what Bush is doing now, IMHO.

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59217

 

In the light of the US' rage against an international court, this link becomes even more ridiculous.

[griff38]

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

What is true? The pictures? (which cant be denied). Or the authors description of what happened?

 

Yes the pictures are true, and they say alot more than his words.

 

That's really what this thread is about. People twisting information to promote a certain viewpoint. [/b]

 

True his words are extreme but No different than calling some guy in a Bradley shooting at Iraqis in pajamas a Hero.

 

Read some of the text. Listen to the rhetoric he uses. "Demonic American baby killers laughing as they kill women and children with their satanic helicopters."

 

Perhaps you are intelligent enough to look past the coating into the real story. But not a lot of people are. That's my real beef here. The war in Iraq really was a waste, and had a lot of unnecessary casualities, this is true. But this guy makes it sound as though orders came right down from the president, saying "Kill those women and children. Aim for them!" [/b]

 

I dont read that at all, the message I get is that our military is full of amoral individuals who find it easier to explain away killing their fellow human beings than admit they were really put in a no win situation.

 

It presents an awful picture of the US military, who are just taking orders, and it doesnt really need that. People have a big enough problem with them as it is. [/b]

 

Just taking orders? That defense was used by the Nazis at Nuremberg. It didn't keep any of them from the hangmans noose.

This tiny website which by way you haved "empowered" by pointing it out to others does show only 1 side of the story. While describing how some "individuals" were doing this he clearly left out the stories of Marines and Soldiers horrifed they had killed the innocents that we were there to save. But every major news outlet in the west does that and avoids the stories you hate.

So I really don't think you have made a good argument against this guy.

Shock my guess is ( and I am sure you will correct me if i am wrong) that someone you care alot about is in the military and you feel this is a personal attack on him or her. It's obvious that our entire military does not participate like the individuals sited. And most people with common sense realize this too.

[ShockV1.89]

It's obvious that our entire military does not participate like the individuals sited. And most people with common sense realize this too.

 

But that's just it, the author of that website would have you believe that anyone even mildly affiliated with the US Military is guilty of crimes against humanity.

 

Read some of the letters written in by readers. There was one there written by a fella who manufactures munitions here in the states. He was damned as a baby killer just as much as the rest of the US Military.

 

Yes, I have friends in the military. My brother in law is an Air Marshal, and I have a friend on a submarine somewhere out there. And yes, I do feel these are personal attacks on them, because he has attacked the entire US military. It's fine to criticize the actions of certain soldiers or units. But to damn the entire military? No, I dont feel that's justified at all.

 

I can tell the author of this page is one of those who would love to see another Mogadishu....

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Homuncul

In fact Al Qaeda had dealings with Saddam and that should be also enough.

 

There is no evidence to suggest that Saddam Hussein had any substantial dealings with Al Qaeda.

 

Originally posted by Homuncul

Unfortunately for muslims - revenge is in their blood, but we have more reason than that.

 

I think this is a human condition, rather than a Muslim one. If you doubt it, come visit me in Dallas and I'll show you the locations of a dozen or so drive-by shootings that kids have perpetrated and have been victims of. The reason kids shoot other kids: "they started it." HUGE parallels with the Israeli / Palestinian conflict with American street-gang crimes.

 

Originally posted by Homuncul

I just say that however egoistically it may sound you and I must restrain ourselves from counting victims in wars and judge it only by them.

 

This somehow seems callous coming from you, Homoncul. What then is the unacceptable number of civilian casualties in order to make a populace "free?" If we kill 80% of a population so the other 20% can be free, is this right? 50/50? 20/80? Who then can say that 4,000 killed, which is the number that it is expected to reach, is okay? I agree that there are going to be civilian casualties... but they must be counted, included and considered. Above all, they must be honored. I think these failings are partly the cause of the current violence against my country's troops.

 

Originally posted by Homuncul

What U.S. did was pure economics and that's what's wrong with it. But Saddam's dictatorship is a good justification for me.

 

I cannot disagree with these two sentances. My discontention with my government is that they weren't truthful in their mission to gain public support... they lied about the true reasons. What else are they willing to lie about?

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

they lied about the true reasons. What else are they willing to lie about?

exactly. if i'm gonna be screwed over in the end I'd like to atleast know about it.

[Kain]

I hate Bush

I hate this war

But screw the people who made that site.

The soldiers are merely carrying out their orders to defend us civies back Home.

Yea, I feel bad for Iraq when they say civilian casualty, but the scenes of cheering and flag burning on 9-11 are okay? Did they give a hoot and a nanny when 1000's of our civilians died? No. The simple reason is because humans are ignorant and so self-concieted and self-destructive it sickens me to hear people like that site's makers use the freedom of speech that our soldiers are 'murdering' for! AND THAT *************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** OF A *************************************************************************************** MOCKERY OF OUR FLAG WITH THE STARS FORMING A NAZI IS SO ****ING DISGUISTING!! THE MAKERS OF THAT SITE SHOULD GET DROPPED INTO HUSSEIN'S HOUSE AND SEE HOW WELL THEY LIKE THE RECEPTION!!! ****

[Homuncul]

What else are they willing to lie about?

 

Anything it considers beneficial not to talk into public. But that I'm afraid is a trade of every country, somewhere more, somewhere less.

 

I think this is a human condition, rather than a Muslim one. If you doubt it, come visit me in Dallas and I'll show you the locations of a dozen or so drive-by shootings that kids have perpetrated and have been victims of. The reason kids shoot other kids: "they started it." HUGE parallels with the Israeli / Palestinian conflict with American street-gang crimes.

 

My old school once turned into fire camps of rappers (I mean Rap, Yo!) and metalists. Many were injured just because of a single person challenging another single person. It happens with us, but here we are not neccesarily tought from birth that revenge is the only way (sometimes people come to it on their own). Muslims are.

 

This somehow seems callous coming from you, Homoncul. What then is the unacceptable number of civilian casualties in order to make a populace "free?" If we kill 80% of a population so the other 20% can be free, is this right? 50/50? 20/80? Who then can say that 4,000 killed, which is the number that it is expected to reach, is okay? I agree that there are going to be civilian casualties... but they must be counted, included and considered. Above all, they must be honored. I think these failings are partly the cause of the current violence against my country's troops.

 

There is no such thing as "unacceptable number" in these matters (for me). And count, consideration, and honor is what we owe them. But every time someone says: "look at thousands of dead children there", and it follows that with this statement one justifys his opinion about U.S. being wrong, I can't stay offline. There are facts of how many american, british soldiers died during the war, does it then mean that we have to say: "The war was good, we lost some hundreds of soldiers to their thousands, we 've lost few civilians there (reporters) to their thousands of civilians". I'm only for judging the war correctly and not through a facet of how many civilians died on both sides, but that they died and probably more could've dyed.

 

How many civilians died in Hiroshima? How many during WW2 itself? they died, they are remembered but it's not the criterion to call war "good" fo one side and "bad" for another. Many leaders through history considered wars as a good mechanism for broadening of their lands or developing of new technology or correcting the number of population. World is not perfect, nor it should be I think, and wars are it's reality. What WE think about it doesn't mean a thing unless we have power to dictate what's right. I don't have such power, international right has. If you're not agreed with it, take your fortune and come to change it, I'll be very thankful for this.

[El Sitherino]

During the point in time of the Hiroshima bombing there were around 1 million people living there. Everyone in the city died. I know this because my opa was in japan at this time, He was in rehabilitation after being shot.He stayed with a family that had relatives in Hiroshima. Also had he not left a few days before the bombing he would have been killed from the fallout.

[FunClown]

During the point in time of the Hiroshima bombing there were around 1 million people living there. Everyone in the city died. I know this because my opa was in japan at this time, He was in rehabilitation after being shot.He stayed with a family that had relatives in Hiroshima. Also had he not left a few days before the bombing he would have been killed from the fallout.

 

Some Australian POWs actually survived one of the nuclear bombs.