Open Jedi Project

[razorace]

This thread is for discussion for the possibility of a open source uber-mod for JKA. The idea is to have as many people as possible combine their efforts into maximizing the feature list for JKA. Most of the current JK2 mods are simply clones of each other except for a couple feature differences.

 

I'm thinking a CVS code sharing system set up on a open source development site (like sourceforge) would be the way to go.

 

Obviously this dependant on the state of JKA, but we can at least start thinking about it now.

 

Personally, I'd be willing to submit various features to the project. Right now, I'm intreged by the concept of ghoul2 based bolt on cloaks that flow like real cloaks.

 

THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR SUBMITTING FEATURES IDEAS WITHOUT ANY INTEREST IN ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK YOURSELF. DEVELOPERS ONLY PLEASE!!

[Emon]

I'm interested in helping. I mainly want to work on recreating the singleplayer aspects with the multiplayer engine. However, it's hard to tell at this time if it's possible, or how much is needed. If the MP and SP engines are integrated like Elite Force II, then a lot of work will be done for us. However, I'd still want to code additional entities to make SP easier and more productive.

 

Also, I'm working on several editing tools for JO/JA. I think having an applications subdivision to the project would be great. Things like my model converter, shader editor or Wudan's GlaNeo could easily be opensourced, easily accessable, etc.

[razorace]

That would be great. You are correct, it does depend on the final JKA product. We'd have to coordinate our planning to make sure any additional features don't break or replace the existing ones. I'd say that's a primary issue to the project. If people want to majorly modify primary gameplay, we could make that stuff a cvar or a seperate subproject.

 

 

Yeah, a tools subset would be great.

[Emon]

I was thinking the same thing. I think minor balance issues could be addressed, but major gameplay modifications should be avoided. I think the idea should be a general enhancement for both developers and users.

[razorace]

Yeah, I imagine we could set up a committee of JKA developers to determine what would allowed into the project, focus and quality wise. We don't want people to create clones of the project just becuase ___ feature isn't included or because ___ SuXz.

 

With a open source CVS system, people could independantly add features and then the committee could add them to the master copy if the features proved to be worthy.

[Emon]

What about various other enhancements like new models or effects? Similar to a high definition pack? General enhancements not specific, ones that no one would dislike. For example, I made a new saber core texture a while back that was pretty much perfect, got rid of the buldge at the bottom and fixed the sharp point at the top. No one has ever said they didn't like it.

[razorace]

I'll allow it.

 

Seriously, that sort of thing would be great in my opinion. But, any effect/model enhancements would have to be top drawer quality stuff as to make the additional download size worth it.

 

For example, I know Scarlet's improved saber/bolt efx work looks great. I've only seen screenshots of it, but the work was based directly on screenshots that I pulled from Episode II after some frame-by-frame research on the effects. The WIP screenshots were dead on with what's in Episode 2.

[Emon]

So should we start now or wait for JA? I can think of some miscellaneous stuff that could be coded in JO, naimly entities, that could be ported to JA easily.

[razorace]

I say wait til JKA. We don't want to waste time working on stuff that might end up being unnessicary in JKA. Plus, I want to start fresh with JKA.

[Emon]

Ok.

[razorace]

Is anyone else interested in this or will Emon and I have to forge the path first?

[Emon]

I suspect others will join later. I just linked a coder for JK who wants to move to JA to this, in a thread at Massassi. My good friends like Gonk and Sine_Nomen are both interested in it, but don't code.

[ASk]

Remember the JediMod issue

 

Looking back at the previous discoveries, most of them should've never been released to the public. Perhaps to a closed modder community, but not to the general users. It only broke down the community, and now, most of the discoveries are credited to the first people that used them in their "mods".

 

If you do that mod, consider the possibility of making the actual source available to trusted people only, in the long run, it will do better than if you opensource it.

[Wudan]

I agree with ASk on this. I won't have time to create a mod by myself, but I'm for an inside coder's collaboration work.

 

I'm not really in the mood for a JediMod flame war.

[razorace]

The problem with a "inside coder's collaboration work" is that it turns everything into a bickering fest about how much the ___ feature is "worth" compared to ___. Everything ends up as a battle of egos and nothing really got done. Plus, every awesome modder starts out as a n00b, restricting information to newcomers would hurt the community.

 

With OJP, we'd start from the get go with a solid license agreement to insure that people won't simply copycat our work. As for credit, since all the features would be released in OJP first and still credited in any "breakoff" projects, all the fame for your work would be secure.

[Emon]

Razorace is right.

[razorace]

Thank you.

 

Another point to consider. Most of the "me too" clones tend to have one major feature addition and then some minor gameplay alterations. Eliminate the need to make "me too" mods to add major feature additions and the number of "me too" mods should go down.

[Emon]

Also, things like JediMod were composed of specific gameplay alterations, this is very general. If you tried to clone what I have in mind for the OJP, most people would ignore it and just go with the real thing that they know is good.

[Wudan]

Heh. Very general.

 

razor, I think that history will show that if someone is the first to throw the red card at an idea, it's you. You just happen to like this one because you're the thread starter and you feel that you have naturally inherited some kind of 'bad idea' veto power.

 

People came to accept what JediMod had because it was (A) Open Source, and (B) had features that were generally desirable.

 

Result? Every mod built on JediMod has the distinction of tasting like JediMod, like wines that come from the same vineyard.

 

I'm not outwardly against any collaboration, I just don't want to have to take a paternity test on my works later.

 

Rather than any kind of Open Jedi Project, a more sane solution would be to come up with a list of bugs in the source and a list of fixes for those bugs, so that each coder can apply and improve on the fixes as they please.

 

Since you've basically just said 'no, we're not going to do anything extra, just bug fixes', then why are you doing this at all?

[Emon]

What? Only bug fixes? Who said that?

 

Wudan, there are thousands of projects in the open source community that don't have any problems. Also, why would people rip off this mod when it's mainly meant to be a base for other developers?

[Wudan]

Ok, so nobody said 'bug fixes'.

 

What I'm stipulating is that what *I* think is necessary might not be what *you* think is necessary, nor should it be. It is an indicator of arrogance to point a creative process in a specific direction.

 

I'll warrant that such a thing has a high possibility of being useful, but it certainly reeks of creative troubles. It certainly seems like you are tempting fate to recreate history.

 

I'll just say it - JK2 modding is a nightmare, largely because there are so many mods where the talented authors could not work together - for instance, why didn't we see a Masters of the Force / Movie Battles ? Why didn't anyone team up with ForceMod? Why did Promod find it's burial at AotCTC? What ever happened to OmniMod? All of them, so similar, that they set out to solve the same problem, and in large part, they do.

 

But, did they have adequate server support? If the mods authors had cooperated, would they have adequate server support? Where are the server admins, that we might find out what they think on the subject? I'd frankly like to know why there wasn't more server support for mods ...

[razorace]

razor, I think that history will show that if someone is the first to throw the red card at an idea, it's you. You just happen to like this one because you're the thread starter and you feel that you have naturally inherited some kind of 'bad idea' veto power.

Oh, you're just jealous of my 'bad idea' veto power. I've always turned down previous offers as it's always been a "under the table" affair with no clear rules/focus.

 

I'm not outwardly against any collaboration, I just don't want to have to take a paternity test on my works later.

Well, if you don't want to share your work to help the community, you don't have to contribute.

 

Rather than any kind of Open Jedi Project, a more sane solution would be to come up with a list of bugs in the source and a list of fixes for those bugs, so that each coder can apply and improve on the fixes as they please.

Been there, done that. The idea of OJP is to go beyond that and get modder share basic features to encourage cooperation.

[Emon]

What I'm stipulating is that what *I* think is necessary might not be what *you* think is necessary, nor should it be. It is an indicator of arrogance to point a creative process in a specific direction.

Uh, what are you talking about?

 

I'll warrant that such a thing has a high possibility of being useful, but it certainly reeks of creative troubles. It certainly seems like you are tempting fate to recreate history.

What??

 

I'll just say it - JK2 modding is a nightmare, largely because there are so many mods where the talented authors could not work together - for instance, why didn't we see a Masters of the Force / Movie Battles ? Why didn't anyone team up with ForceMod? Why did Promod find it's burial at AotCTC? What ever happened to OmniMod? All of them, so similar, that they set out to solve the same problem, and in large part, they do.

I fail to see how this is relevant. We aren't trying to unite the modding community or anything. I think the idea razorace has, or at least that I have, is a mod which can be used as a general base for other developers, and possibly do minor gameplay fixes and general enhancements. On the developer note, think of it as an open source C++ library of tools, perhaps like the STL. I myself would aim mostly at recreating things from SP for the MP engine so better SP games could be made, or coding new entities that would let you do a lot more a lot easier, say an elevator entity that supports multiple switches, floors, and is highly customizable.

 

But, did they have adequate server support? If the mods authors had cooperated, would they have adequate server support? Where are the server admins, that we might find out what they think on the subject? I'd frankly like to know why there wasn't more server support for mods ...

You, sir, have more screws loose than the Millenium Falcon! Almost every JO server has a mod on it today.

[razorace]

I'll add that MotF and MovieBattles never did anything together primarily due to us both being stubborn bastards. I refused to eliminate all the other gamemodes for the sake of Last Man Standing and he wouldn't accept that. But that's ok. OJP has nothing to do with major gameplay altering mods like MotF or MovieBattles anyway.

[Wudan]

Basically, what I'm saying is, good luck with your efforts. There's no point in me trying to dissuade you from your course, so good luck, and have fun with it.