UgonDieFoo Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 I'd just like to raise an issue with regards to the force powers in the upcoming Jedi Academy. One of the problems with Jedi Outcast was three rank force powers. The three level system was ok for single player, but it wasn't good for multiplayer. With only 3 ranks for each power, you were basically forced to have full rank in a power, or not use it at all. At anything less than max, most of the force powers lost too much of their effectiveness to be worth investing in. One of the most notable examples of this in Jedi Outcast was force heal. At the first rank it gave only 5 health for half your force meter and at level 2 it only gave 10 health. Force heal was only practical at level 3. The problem of three rank force powers was compounded by the fact that many of the force powers were designed to vary in effectiveness in more than one way at each rank. For example, the power grip would hold an enemy undamaged for 5 seconds at level one while the user could not move, damage and lift the enemy while the user could not move at level 2 and at level 3 the user could walk and move the victim around in midair. The powers like grip that varied in multiple ways from rank to rank, including absorb, protect, drain and lightning could only be used competitively at level 3 because of this design element. While that is an opinion, I feel it its strongly justified. When Jedi Outcast first came out, it was more common to encounter players with a variety of ranks in the powers I named. But after only a short while basically everyone was only using full ranks in any of the powers that I indicated. Its fairly safe to assume that this change occurred because people soon realized that it wasn’t worth investing in any of those powers unless they were to be used at rank 3. From my experience with Jedi Outcast, it almost seemed as if Raven only focused on how the powers would be balanced, both against each other and in general, at full rank, while the lower ranks were never given serious consideration. My hopes for Jedi Academy are that these kinds of mistakes are not made regarding the force powers. It would be very good if the force powers had four possible levels as they did in the original Jedi Knight. The inclusion of an additional rank would encourage diversity in the force powers people choose. Having four ranks would allow for lesser differences between each rank. Thus, people wouldn’t find it as necessary to only have maxed force powers. Unfortunately, I believe it was already announced that Jedi Academy would feature 3 rank powers. That being the case, much care should be taken into deciding how the force powers should vary from one level to another. There shouldn’t be too many substantial differences between the ranks of each power, especially regarding the more powerful light and dark side powers. The overall properties of each power should be kept generally the same, like the way some of the neutral powers were designed in Jedi Outcast, such as saber throw, force sight, jump, etc. It would probably be best if the more powerful force powers only varied in one way, as was the case in the original Jedi Knight. As a final issue, some may feel that the design of multiple differences between each rank makes for a more natural progression from one level to the next. Designing powers to only differ in one variable from level to level might be seen as a crude implementation of the rank system. On the other hand, the fact that there is only three ranks already does a lot to inhibit the natural progression concept to begin with. A possible solution to this would be to have higher levels give diminishing bonuses. Just as an example, a power like force heal could be designed to give 15 health at rank one, 25 health at rank two and 30 health at rank three. This pyramid design could be used for powers that vary in any number of ways from one level to the next. This would help to encourage diversity amongst multiplayer characters. The bottom line is that much care needs to be taken in the design of the powers in Jedi Academy. Measures must be taken to ensure that players don’t feel compelled to assign powers the exact same way as everyone else. There won’t be much point in having three ranks, or any ranks, if everyone is using rank three powers exclusively. I'm open to all who would like to share an opinion or speculation on this matter. Also, feel free to discuss anything you prefer to with regards to force powers, even if its not directly related to the issue I raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Whoa, first of all: great post keep 'em coming!! And I agree with you mostly, although I never seriously thought about this matter. I do think however, that 4 levels would be too much. Why do we need more levels, if they can make the 3 levels we already have better? A solution for this would be to have the levels differ only slightly in damage/effectiveness etc, but make the mana costs lower at each next level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan Whoa, first of all: great post keep 'em coming!! And I agree with you mostly, although I never seriously thought about this matter. I do think however, that 4 levels would be too much. Why do we need more levels, if they can make the 3 levels we already have better? A solution for this would be to have the levels differ only slightly in damage/effectiveness etc, but make the mana costs lower at each next level. Given that this issue is likely long since decided, let's have a fun discussion anyway The number of rank levels is meaningless, IMO - it is what you do with those levels that matters. In that regard, giving each rank some level of usefulness is important. However, I am all for servers with a somewhat limited number of force points available. That makes you choose your powers and ranks carefully. Combining some degree of usefulness at all levels with limited points seems a good way to make the game very interesting. To me, at least. Personally, I think of it more from the SP perspective - I wish that once you had attained a new force power rank there was a way to use the old rank for lower force cost. For instance - Mind Trick. I'd have liked to use level 2 twice as many times rather than level 3 in many instances. Too bad there wasn't a key-combo to 'set' the level default. For instance if Mind Trick is the 'R' key (my setup), then to change the level to level 2 you'd do <shift>-R, 2. Just a thought ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shock ~ unnamed Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 The worthless powers at lower levels are: Heal Grip Push Pull Protect Absorb Anything but maxed is a waste of time. Some powers however are better at lower levels in some situations. Lightning and drain can actually be far better at lower levels if you are a clever/cheap player. Try dueling someone on duel_temple who is using level 1/2 lightning w/ level 2 drain and can strafe jump around the map fast. I take my jump down to level 2 in saber only teamffa (no need to jump 50 feet in the air). I can still kick and it only does like 1 hp less damage. Rage at level 3 is an extremely devastating offensive power but at lower levels it is quite useful as a defensive power. Mind trick at level 1/2 is good for duels but for ctf you want it at 3. Same goes for seeing. Level 1/2 is all you need for duels but in CTF or in a game full of gunners you want level 3. Saber throw is pretty balanced. 1 gets you a basic throw, 2 gets you a faster one and 3 gets you a very fast one with superb control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Yes, there are force powers that are only really useful at level three, and everyone has them set as such (like push, pull, and absorb). But since you can't put level 3 in everything, that is where the variety comes in. Some people like to max out saber throw. I do not, because I'd rather put my points into force seeing, which I find very useful in FFA. It is these other powers where players can vary. It doesn't really matter how many levels there are for something like force push, because everyone will always max it out. This is a good thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 im not much of a multiplayer, so im not sure about how these levels affect things (although i have heard several times before that a lot of powers are only useful at high levels) however it did bug me in single player that, when the levels were actually functional different - rather than just different in scale, i couldn't use lesser levels of powers. Surely you could hold down the button, either a quick click for level 1, 1/2 a second for level 2 or a second for level 3.. with maybe a little bar indicating the level. Other options would be to limit the number of level 3 powers available... 1 level 3, 2 level 2, 4 level 1 powers.... or if the force powers aren't split between light/dark sides then maybe picking a power at level 3 would grey out an opposing power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by toms however it did bug me in single player that, when the levels were actually functional different - rather than just different in scale, i couldn't use lesser levels of powers. Surely you could hold down the button, either a quick click for level 1, 1/2 a second for level 2 or a second for level 3.. with maybe a little bar indicating the level. Other options would be to limit the number of level 3 powers available... 1 level 3, 2 level 2, 4 level 1 powers.... or if the force powers aren't split between light/dark sides then maybe picking a power at level 3 would grey out an opposing power. [sP] The interesting thing is that the force power implementation was much more useful in JO than JK, but the usage was no better - press the button to use, with few variable powers. As you say, some way of modifying the level used would be much more interesting to gameplay. For instance, as a Light Jedi, I have no qualms about using Grip level 1 - no damage, just a stun effect. However, level 2 is definitely dark, and level 3 is just too much fun not to be evil So the ability to stun would be nice without having to use level 3 just because I'm more powerful - I'd just rather have it use less mana and allow me to move on. I just don't know the best way to implement that ... [MP] Agree with you Prime! Lets face it - if you run a server that has enough points for everyone to set all powers to max, it's boring. I'd much rather have limits ... make you think a bit Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockstar Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan A solution for this would be to have the levels differ only slightly in damage/effectiveness etc, but make the mana costs lower at each next level. an idea, however in practise if the difference between levels was little then we would see people walking around with every single force power at low, but still effective levels... imho i don't think that the level of force powers is a seriously critical issue... good post tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by Rockstar however in practise if the difference between levels was little then we would see people walking around with every single force power at low, but still effective levels... Not if you make the difference in mana cost really big... Of course the damage etc. would differ too, but slightly. Say, lighting. Lvl 1 lightning still could do reasonable damage, but used up an awefull lot of mana... Too bad that different levels would be very much the same though, but the way it is now, the lower levels just suck for lots of powers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan Not if you make the difference in mana cost really big... Of course the damage etc. would differ too, but slightly. Say, lighting. Lvl 1 lightning still could do reasonable damage, but used up an awefull lot of mana... I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean level 1 would take a lot, level 2 a little bit more, and level 3 a little bit more? Otherwise, no one would take level 2 or three. I agree with Rockstar. I don't think it is a big issue. I think Force Powers have been implemented pretty well. The Force is not something that is easy to get just right in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean level 1 would take a lot, level 2 a little bit more, and level 3 a little bit more? Otherwise, no one would take level 2 or three. I think he was saying that there should be a balancing of power and mana between levels. Take lightning as an example. Level 1 would do 20 damage but take 50 mana, level 2 would do 35 damage and take 35 mana, and level 3 would do 50 damage and take 20 mana. Or something like that. I don't really agree with that - I like the powers expanding in scope as they grow in strength ... but I know that for MP that makes it tougher to balance - and you're right, it is a hard thing to get just right. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boinga1 Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 It would seems more logical to me that higher levels take more mana, and lower take less... Personally, I don't think it's a huge issue. Heal itself is pretty useless much of the time, as you gain, what, 50 HP, using your whole force pool? Then you're susceptible to any number of assaults, like lightning or grip (no mana for push or absorb).Grip lvl 1 is very useless, no damage and you can't even move.I don't know about rage or drain. Absorb and protect are pretty useless at level 1... OK, the point is, they're all ultimately less than useful in a FFA/CTF situation, except at level 3. I think that just makes sense...although it is a pity it must be like this. And btw, what do you peeps think of the idea of a new force rank for JA MP, that would allow most powers to be lvl 3? I think such an idea would be OK, except it would be overused and 99/100 servers would have people running around with level 3 powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by boinga1 It would seems more logical to me that higher levels take more mana, and lower take less... Personally, I don't think it's a huge issue. I concur with both these statements... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 The four star system in JK was rather redundant. Only the neutral powers were useful at lower levels, the light and dark powers weren't useful until three stars at the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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