Prime Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by only1kenobi I can just imagine Luke having a wardrobe full of similar looking black uniforms, and Kyle's wardrobe packed with bantha herder clothes, all identical... Like just about everyone else in Star Wars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by JediLurker I don't think anyone here will argue that. Actually, there are many here who WILL argue that ... and it seems that the closer we get to JA the worse some people see it in retrospect. There are some who post with a tone that presumes JO as crap ... I'll not be surprised if by mid-September some people here will be vomiting at the mere mention of JO like people on the streets of Postal 2 What's wrong with a heavily modified JO with developer attention focused on the areas that 'went wrong'? Nothing. Take something great by most people's estimates, improve the good points, fix and eliminate the trouble points, go back to areas you couldn't do before ... I can't wait. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 Actually, there are many here who WILL argue that ... Yeah, you're right. In retrospect I realized how dumb that sounded given some of the content here. Anyway, I can't wait either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by JediLurker Really, when you think about it, so what if JA is JO beefed up? JO had its fair share of problems, but it was a good game despite them. I don't think anyone here will argue that. What's wrong with a heavily modified JO with developer attention focused on the areas that 'went wrong'? Lots of games do that for their sequels. UT, almost all sports games, etc. I think people had too high expectations of the game, but that's just my opinion. Very well said. UT2K3 and UT2K4 are a perfect example. UT2K4 adds new team combat, overhauls the engine, adds vehicles, etc. A lot like JA's improvements, infact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargasso Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by JediLurker Really, when you think about it, so what if JA is JO beefed up? Well that depends on the foundation of the previous game. Should a developer be allowed to attempt the construction of a skyscraper when all they managed to build the first time was an 5-floor brick building that feels like you've lived in it before? Really, what fundamental, far-reaching improvments did JO really bring to the Dark Forces experience aside from improved lighsabre mechanics (and only in SP, as the MP implemenation was poorly executed?) Was the storyline more engaging than DF or JK? No, The DF story arch brought you the most diverse number of locations and JK had a progression that reflected your actions with multiple endings to boot. Were the levels better designed for engaging play? No, DF had brilliantly implemented "puzzles" that did not feel extemporaneous while Jk had worked unmatched scale of size into their design. Raven somehow also managed to include fewer NPCs in their levels than JK. Were the enemies signifigantly more fun to engage? No, the bread and butter of your enemies in every SW FPS to date, the stormies, where irritatingly hard to engage, almost acrobatic in their juking and dodging (especially with a blaster). And where were the numerous flying enemies? Was was the weaponset outside of the lightsabre more fun to use? No, the arsenal in JO was a step backwards due to the triteness of its heavier guns (rocketlauncher, grendate launcher/mp5, flak cannon, respectively). Did the multiplayer offer anything significantly different in MP that veteran JKers hadn't done unofficially in games for years? No. Most of my major qualifications for the DF series and some from FPSes in general simply were not met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reprehence Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 The only thing that has really bothered me from the screenshots is that the sabers seem to spin in hands that don't move. It's really common to see a saber sticking out of the middle of a hand. Maybe it's something we'll just have to live with - and it probably won't bother me when I am actually playing - but I don't remember that sort of thing in JO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotokan Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I don't really mind the reused models but I would like to see higher quality skins for them. The Kyle outfit is getting old and so are the Weequay and Rodian... Also you think they should get newer, upgraded sounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
only1kenobi Posted July 29, 2003 Author Share Posted July 29, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Like just about everyone else in Star Wars? Just about, but Padme never wears the same outfit twice... hmmmm Padme :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cheat Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 if it is a good game and has decent models i dont really care, i will still love the game, and there will probably be mods where you can replace kyle with another version of kyle so it doesnt really matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reprehence Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape over things that are so easy to change. My guess is two days after the release someone will come out with a Kyle and Luke mod to change their skins. And if someone slightly understands directory structures, they can replace them easily enough themselves with something from JO (at least according to the dev team thus far). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Originally posted by Sargasso "Really, when you think about it, so what if JA is JO beefed up?" - JediLurker Well that depends on the foundation of the previous game. Should a developer be allowed to attempt the construction of a skyscraper when all they managed to build the first time was an 5-floor brick building that feels like you've lived in it before? But if the building is solid and you loved to live there, then yes Who cares if you lived there before? Fun = Fun, doesn't it? Originally posted by Sargasso Really, what fundamental, far-reaching improvments did JO really bring to the Dark Forces experience aside from improved lighsabre mechanics (and only in SP, as the MP implemenation was poorly executed?) The improved lightsaber combat was a big improvement, though. The graphics were much better, simply due to advanced technology over its ancestors. The AI was better for the most part. But again, why are sweeping differences necessary? If Dark Forces and JK were great, why not take those good elements and make some new improvements? Originally posted by Sargasso Was the storyline more engaging than DF or JK? No, The DF story arch brought you the most diverse number of locations and JK had a progression that reflected your actions with multiple endings to boot. This is, of course, a matter of opinion. But I agree that the JK story was probably better than JO, but I liked JO too in this regard. As for the different endings and ability to choose your force powers, this was left out in JO because it was decided that they could build better levels if they know exactly what force powers the player would have, as opposed to going with the lowest common denominator. They are going back to this to some extent in JA, though. Originally posted by Sargasso Were the levels better designed for engaging play? No, DF had brilliantly implemented "puzzles" that did not feel extemporaneous while Jk had worked unmatched scale of size into their design. Raven somehow also managed to include fewer NPCs in their levels than JK. I agree that more NPCs would have been better, but I did like running around Bespin, especially in the carbon chambers. Originally posted by Sargasso Were the enemies signifigantly more fun to engage? No, the bread and butter of your enemies in every SW FPS to date, the stormies, where irritatingly hard to engage, almost acrobatic in their juking and dodging (especially with a blaster). And where were the numerous flying enemies? The Reborn? Hell Yes! I would have liked JO simply because of the lightsaber fights. I'm not really sure what you mean by "hard to engage", though. The stormtroopers ducked and stuff, but other than that they were pretty easy to hit, but they did employ tactics, like trying to surround you. This is an improvement over JK. There were a few flying enemies, like interegation and probe droids. Personally, I could do without flying enemies... Originally posted by Sargasso Was was the weaponset outside of the lightsabre more fun to use? No, the arsenal in JO was a step backwards due to the triteness of its heavier guns (rocketlauncher, grendate launcher/mp5, flak cannon, respectively). Loved the sniper rifle. That was a blast. I also liked picking off enemies at long range with the bryar. I didn't mind the other weapons one way or another. I was too busy chopping people with my lightsaber. What gun is going to be more fun that that? Originally posted by Sargasso Did the multiplayer offer anything significantly different in MP that veteran JKers hadn't done unofficially in games for years? No. Again, so what? If those mods were good, then Raven was wise to follow their lead. Just because they didn't implement something completely new doesn't mean it was bad. They went with what people liked and was popular. The improved lighsaber combat in MP was worth the price of admission right there (spammers not withstanding), IMO. Originally posted by Sargasso Most of my major qualifications for the DF series and some from FPSes in general simply were not met. Fair enough. Then you probably should avoid getting Jedi Academy, as I get the impression that it will be quite similar to JO, but with improvements based on lessons learned. JO met and exceeded my qualifications for a DF game: - lightsaber: CHECK - Kyle Katarn: CHECK - pile o'weapons: CHECK - stormtroopers: CHECK - evil Jedi: CHECK - great sound effects: CHECK - had fun playing: CHECK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Fair enough. Then you probably should avoid getting Jedi Academy, as I get the impression that it will be quite similar to JO, but with improvements based on lessons learned. JO met and exceeded my qualifications for a DF game: - lightsaber: CHECK - Kyle Katarn: CHECK - pile o'weapons: CHECK - stormtroopers: CHECK - evil Jedi: CHECK - great sound effects: CHECK - had fun playing: CHECK That is what I said in a different thread. He has been very down on JO in every regard - which I am fine with, as it is his opinion and diversity of opinions is never a bad thing. But as I said, he has always been down on JO, so I can't see him liking JA very much. Too bad, he was obviously a big fan of the previous games. JO met and exceeded my qualifications for a DF game: Mine, too ... add on: - Star Wars feel - Check - Awesome music - Check - Fun duels - Check - Feel like a Jedi - Check - Fun enough for lots of replay? - Check! Now I just can't wait to see what JA adds to that mix - where will it fall on my top games list? How will it effect my replay of JO? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taekwondo joe Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 JK was way better then JO, but JO is a great gmae, just jk is all time fave for me. jk is better in, story cut scenes replayable levles big outdoor levels{i love outdoor ones} npcs, lots of them two endings bad guys{all the 7 dark jedi were cool, and maw scared the crap outa me} weapons force powers {force destruct baby} _______________________ jo is better in graphics saber, and saber combat{jk was like swinging a bat} ai luke was fighting with you!! force jump{it is tied in with jump key instead of having to use you force jump key} normal badies{such as stormtroopers were cooler, weeqay and dont forget those tight reborn} +++++++ so over all jk is better, but jo overed everything that makes a great game fun replayable good story graphics jedi force kyle and so on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargasso Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by Prime But if the building is solid and you loved to live there, then yes Who cares if you lived there before? Fun = Fun, doesn't it? Actually, I tend to have more fun doing something I haven't experienced before or isn't too familiar. That's why I wouldn't want to live in the same place for too long a time.* 5+ years is too long a time., imo. ... But again, why are sweeping differences necessary? If Dark Forces and JK were great, why not take those good elements and make some new improvements? A couple of reasons. 1) There are only a few games from LEC that have used the coveted Star Wars universe in an FPS over the years and they only come along once every few years (on average). It is a precious resource that needs to be used to its maximum potential. By not innovating as much as the previous installments, this potential was not utilized. 2) The last game in the series was ~5 years from JO and the industry has witnessed innovative advancement much beyond JK. I'm all for building off of the base of DF and JK... but these new improvements can be dramatic and still remain faithful to the franchise.... and imo they should be because that's the way I like it. Seen * above. As for the different endings and ability to choose your force powers, this was left out in JO because it was decided that they could build better levels if they know exactly what force powers the player would have, as opposed to going with the lowest common denominator. Ah, yes, I'd call that the "path" of least resistance for both the player and the developers (pun intended). If this is really such a good system then why, as you mentioned, are they doing away with it in JA? I agree that more NPCs would have been better, but I did like running around Bespin, especially in the carbon chambers. Not all that important to mention, but what is the correllation between JO not having enough NPCs and you liking playing in the famous SW locale? The Reborn? Hell Yes! I would have liked JO simply because of the lightsaber fights. I'm not really sure what you mean by "hard to engage", though. The stormtroopers ducked and stuff, but other than that they were pretty easy to hit, but they did employ tactics, like trying to surround you. This is an improvement over JK. I'm not as easily satisfied. The stormies were too quick and too nimble for both the movies and my skills. I can't prove that I'm no slouch in FPSes... you'll just have to take my word for it. Again, so what? If those mods were good, then Raven was wise to follow their lead. Just because they didn't implement something completely new doesn't mean it was bad. They went with what people liked and was popular. The improved lighsaber combat in MP was worth the price of admission right there (spammers not withstanding), IMO. See * again. Fair enough. Then you probably should avoid getting Jedi Academy, as I get the impression that it will be quite similar to JO, but with improvements based on lessons learned. JA looks more promising, more like the game JO should have been. Back at least to its RPG roots and multiplayer that at least draws from some of the innovation from the 6+ years after JK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargasso Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 That is what I said in a different thread. He has been very down on JO in every regard - which I am fine with, as it is his opinion and diversity of opinions is never a bad thing. I've acknowledged before that saber combat mechanics were improved in JO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 That is what I said in a different thread. He has been very down on JO in every regard - which I am fine with, as it is his opinion and diversity of opinions is never a bad thing. Originally posted by Sargasso I've acknowledged before that saber combat mechanics were improved in JO. OK, let me clarify, every post you make regarding JO is on whole negative, although you will grant that the saber combat had been improved since JK. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ack Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by only1kenobi I downloaded the media pack for the JA and noticed that the Kyle model looks identical to the Jk2 one... now I'm hoping that the other models are higher quality and at least a little different from the JK2 ones. Luke looks different, and that's good. Well regardless of whether different models are used or not, I'll still play the game. They really should have given Kyle a more "Jediysh" style this time... hes been wearing these clothes quite some time now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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