Egarthen Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by Kingzjester I thought it was hilarious. Yet vaguely arousing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by Kingzjester Hey! Trep! What is the capital city of HELL according to Dante? Pittsburgh? In my past life I was a Venetian woman in the Renaissance, and I chose the aristocratic life instead of being a courtesan. Damn, big mistake. Chopines over cartography, titles and silks over verses and parchments. And tonight I seem to have relapsed into that incarnation. So sorry if I'm unable to answer your inquiry. Ask Moos instead. Maybe he was some important bloke in 14th century Ravenna in a past life and hung out with Mr. D. Sorry -- Signore A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 and I'm glad I know better. ---------------------------------------- 10 years before a game gets so much hype that the mainstream i think you forgot The Longest Journey --------------------------------------------- Myst questions : Is it true that before it went big sucess the critisims of the magazines called it a masterpiece but then after its sucess and the big fuss it created all the "knowers" called it awful?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkoubyDoo Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Wow I was wondering how the post count shot up in this thread so quickly. It was hyjacked! I'll say that Myst is symbolic of the decline of adventures. As many have said, Myst was popular because of its technology, but it was in a genre where it couldn't take technology as far as other genres. Oh, and The 7th Guest was before Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGZanthia Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by SkoubyDoo Oh, and The 7th Guest was before Myst What?! R u sure ?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGemma Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Sooo.... what is this thread about anyways? *evil grin* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by SkoubyDoo I'll say that Myst is symbolic of the decline of adventures. As many have said, Myst was popular because of its technology, but it was in a genre where it couldn't take technology as far as other genres. No, it was in a genre that refused to take advantage of technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by Homoludens No, it was in a genre that refused to take advantage of technology. dunno if you say what i wanted to say but i don't find Myst so techological good. I mean it was just static pictures... causing the gamer feel like an outsider while the game was made so as it will drive the gamer to whole new worlds...(RealMyst is another thing ) I prefer 1000% Cryo's engine (a later one...but much better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 pleto, don't you remember the kinds of computer games we used to play in 1993? Many of them were still sprite based, many of them were in DOS. Basically, many of them were graphically and gameplaywise very limited in terms of what you could do and experience. I mean, for chrissakes, they were in 8 bit colour, and flat! In 1993 Myst completely shook up people's expectations of what their PCs were capable of. Those 'static pictures', as you so dismissively put it, became the benchmark not only for adventure game graphics to follow, but also for other design considerations like interface and point of view. Of course, you wouldn't understand this impact unless you had played Myst back in the early 90s, which you evidently hadn't. Subsequent games like Syberia, The Longest Journey, Grim Fandango -- they all owe a debt to Myst. And I disagree about it making you feel like an outsider, but this because I'm putting it in its proper context of experiencing Myst back in 1993. At that time, the visual impact of the game was so new and powerful that the player had no choice but to be pulled into the game. Today, though, with real time 3D worlds you can 'walk into', force feedback mouse, panoramic multi-monitor support, real time voice communication, and even 3D goggles, it is understandable that playing the original Myst would make you feel like you're only looking at the world, not entering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 pleto, don't you remember the kinds of computer games we used to play in 1993? Oh yes...and before then...AH *dreaming the old times* which you evidently hadn't. well i haven't plaied it back then. But experienced it later... The thing is this. It may have used something really good for that time...of course...BUT...that doesn't mean it was SO good...it may was revolution...but come on. Have you really felt you where in there...(of course i cannot understand the feel when you plaied it back in 93) but let's look it with an outsider view. It uses very good grafics for that time, and you moved by letting pictures(or pages) change in front of your eyes...I mean its most like reading a book, than playing it....Even if i plaied it in 93, i don't believe i would have felt i was IN there. Just looking at it... Subsequent games like Syberia, The Longest Journey, Grim Fandango -- they all owe a debt to Myst. Nonononononononono. Games like first-person adventures owe a dept to the Myst...not because they copied it, but because it showed the way to the "create a full world and put the gamer in" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGemma Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Sorry pleto, that didn't make any sense to me? You mean games do owe it, because they had a plattform to develop further from, or they don't because they would have done it either way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 pleto, I wasn't talking about first person perspectives, I was talking about the overall graphics, I was talking about what was possible to do with a game once you had more power and memory to work with. Like I stated, Myst showed other adventure game developers the possibilities of taking advantage of technology. In that sense Myst was a kind of inspiration. And this would have been impossible if the Miller brothers had used floppy disks instead of a cd-rom. Those graphics in Myst needed a lot of storage space, the game 'streamed' from the cd-rom, which freed up the CPU's power to run other parts of the game. If you think about it in this sense, the other developers decided to do the same because they saw Myst, and they thought, 'Wow, I wonder what kinds of games I can make with that much power'. That's what I meant by games like TLJ, Grim, and Syberia owing a debt to Myst. In my argument it has nothing to do with its sub-genre (first person view), it has more to do with its technical qualities. EDIT: BTW, Myst wasn't the first computer game to come on cd-rom. The credit goes to The 7Th Guest. But it was Myst that truly exploited the power of cd-rom gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fov Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 i think you forgot The Longest Journey i could be wrong, but i don't think TLJ got the mainstream attention that Syberia did (even though the adventure community was very excited by it). Spots on cable TV? I don't think so... I had forgotten about Myst and the CD-ROM. i'm pretty sure 7th Guest came out first... however. For one thing, Myst had lower system requirements. I'm sure of this because I was feeling nostalgic (read: hormonal) the other day, reading an old diary, and came across a passage where I cursed the fact that I'd tried to buy 7th guest and it wouldn't run on my computer because our processor was too slow. We had a Mac LC and had bought a CD-ROM separately. at the time I was playing Myst. We eventually upgraded to an LCII and 7th Guest ran okay, but at the time, I believe Myst was more of a common denominator. Secondly, 7th Guest had some hype and then faded, while Myst had some hype and lasted. I see 7th guest as that great debut hit that the band couldn't follow up on (and they went bankrupt trying). 7th Guest did spawn its own clones, but not to the extent that Myst did. I think Myst's lack of a storyline has something to do with it. The story was vague enough that people who were interested in story could draw their own conclusions (esp. if they read every book in the library), and people who weren't interested in story could concentrate on the puzzles. The 7th Guest had a definite story, and even though the puzzles had nothing to do with the story, the end of every puzzle brought on a cutscene. So you were forced to see the story. And I imagine -- although this is just speculation -- that this turned off some of the people that were attracted to Myst. Then again, those people who don't want story probably shouldn't be playing adventures. But if Myst is the first adventure you've played, and you liked it for the puzzles, and you then go looking for other "adventures" that are just like Myst and can't find any that meet the high standards that Myst set (except for Riven and Exile, of course), your impression will be that the adventure genre sucks. erm... methinks i'm rambling. time for more coffee... -emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkoubyDoo Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 The 7th Guest and Myst came out at virtually the same time but Gamespy said T7G came out first. I'm a little confused as to why Myst became the real phenomenom while T7G didn't do as well. I haven't played Myst as much but it had static images, VERY cryptic puzzles and story, while T7G had much better graphics, sound, music and a more accessable story and puzzles. I think people bought Myst to show off their PCs, bought it on word of mouth, bought it because it was for all ages, bought it and probably didn't beat it. As for the adventure genre, it cannot evolve anymore under the point and click title. Innovation isn't coming from the adventure side, it's coming from the action and roleplaying side with games implementing better stories and harder puzzles into the action and character progression already present. The few games that tried something different, Grim Fandango and GK3, never caught on with the adventure community (cept maybe BS3). 10 years ago we had King's Quest 5, the first mouse driven adventure. Today we have mouse driven adventures in nearly the exact same light. What innovations did TJG have over KQ5? You say Myst influenced adventures? No it created a sub-genre, which quickly faded away, just like the FMV adventures, though for different reasons (FMV games were very expensive). Nothing has changed. And maybe nothing can change from the traditional adventure side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by SkoubyDoo You say Myst influenced adventures? No it created a sub-genre, which quickly faded away, just like the FMV adventures, though for different reasons (FMV games were very expensive). Nothing has changed. And maybe nothing can change from the traditional adventure side. Is there not anyone here who understands me? Hello?!!! I wasn't talking about genres, I was talking about how adventure games were subsequently designed based on the possibilities of new technology!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fov Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I wasn't talking about genres, I was talking about how adventure games were subsequently designed based on the possibilities of new technology!! This was true before Myst, too. I think it was Gamespot who just did the 25 best moments in gaming? One of these was the way Sierra promoted sound cards... they were developing KQ4 and because the game was more mature and had a deeper storyline, they wanted a more expansive soundtrack than the previous games. So, they teamed up with Roland and [the other guys whose name I forget], and created a soundtrack using sound cards (unheard of in those days), and then promoted and retailed the sound cards as well as their own games. This is widely accepted as a turning point in gaming... it was driven by the technology available, as well as by the developer's vision of the game. You're right that Myst had a huge influence on the development of CD-ROM games, and the prompted the exploration into what else the technology could do. It's a shame there hasn't been a comparable DVD game produced... maybe that would finally push people to buy DVD drives (and companies to make games for them). I find it ironic that Myst was initially created for the Mac (and ran better on a Mac, IMO), but it didn't help the Mac keep its market share. That's due to a number of other reasons, though. Even though we've moved past static images, Myst's graphics are still being copied today. I see traces of them in TLJ and Syberia. -emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by fov I think it was Gamespot who just did the 25 best moments in gaming? It's actually Gamespy. Originally posted by fov Even though we've moved past static images, Myst's graphics are still being copied today. I see traces of them in TLJ and Syberia. That's exactly my point. And we're still seeing it in upcoming games like Journey To The Center Of The Earth, Schizm II: Mysterious Journey (although it'll be in real time 3D there's still that idea of non-violent exploration), and Dark Fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkoubyDoo Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by Homoludens Is there not anyone here who understands me? Hello?!!! I wasn't talking about genres, I was talking about how adventure games were subsequently designed based on the possibilities of new technology!! Fov is right, Myst wasn't the one game that made adventure games strive to be innovative, the King's Quest series has always been that way. Adventure games have been very influencial in the past: first PC game with graphics (Mystery House), first game with sound (KQ4), first to use a mouse (KQ5). Next time quote atleast my whole paragraph. I'm saying the genre hasn't been innovative lately, which means I disagree with you, not that I don't understand you. Save the ughs for someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by SkoubyDoo Fov is right, Myst wasn't the one game that made adventure games strive to be innovative, the King's Quest series has always been that way. Adventure games have been very influencial in the past: first PC game with graphics (Mystery House), first game with sound (KQ4), first to use a mouse (KQ5). You must have missed this: Originally posted by Homoludens EDIT: BTW, Myst wasn't the first computer game to come on cd-rom. The credit goes to The 7Th Guest. But it was Myst that truly exploited the power of cd-rom gaming. Next time quote atleast my whole paragraph. I'm saying the genre hasn't been innovative lately, which means I disagree with you, not that I don't understand you. Save the ughs for someone else. No, it hasn't been innovative in the past several years. That was my point. However, I was talking specifically about technological influences in the design and where that could take the game, nothing else. Hence, Myst was revolutionary. I don't think the next significant technical innovation will come until Broken Sword 3 and Uru: Ages Beyond Myst are released. And in those games, from what we all have seen and read, the technology looks to be central to how the game - and gameplay - will be experienced, from the design of gameworld, to how the puzzles will be engineered, and even how players will be able to communicate with each other . Even non-adventure gamers are taking notice. And that ugh was for you and only for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 fov, since you seem authoritative about the history of adventure games, which was the first real time 3D adventure? It's not GK3, if I'm right. Was it one of the Tex Murphy games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fov Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 which was the first real time 3D adventure? It's not GK3, if I'm right. Was it one of the Tex Murphy games? do you mean real time in terms of gameplay, or in terms of how the 3D graphics are rendered? for real time gameplay, I would guess GK3 (released 1999, I think?)... if it's something else, I probably haven't played it. There was a period between 1996 and 2001 where I played very few adventures because my Mac was too old and I hadn't bought a PC yet (oh, and I was in college!) Just Adventure claims that Blade Runner is real-time 3D... it was released in 1997... but this comes from a GamesDomain review: "The First Real-time 3D Adventure" is a phrase stamped over everything in and on the box of this game. However, everything I have described implies the contrary to this. The major events are strictly linear and are organized into a total of five acts. Often I found myself wandering around doing nothing, just because I didn't notice that a new arrow had appeared in an old location, indicating another screen. There is no sense of the passage of time in the game since the city is forever bathed in twilight (heavy smog, I guess) and there are no other indications of time (unlike the clock in The Last Express). if you mean what was the first 3D adventure (with graphics generated on the fly), i have no idea... -emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Thans, fov. Sorry, I wasn't specific. I meant real time 3D as in graphics rendered on the fly. If you haven't played GK3 yet, you might want to give the demo a shot. I have a link to it but I'm at work right now. I'll post it when I get home later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Originally posted by Homoludens Is there not anyone here who understands me? Hello?!!! I wasn't talking about genres, I was talking about how adventure games were subsequently designed based on the possibilities of new technology!! you are being understand....don't worry I will write now with a more slow pace so as not be named in the future "pleto the unaderstanding" Myst...The idea behind this game was to use very good grafics and create a small story. The gamers would use a char that his/her name is never said, thus helping the idea of "the gamer feeling the world of the game"... The game based to the puzzles by 80%-90% mostly. The others chars could be numbered on the fingers of the one hand. Myst can be named that it did helped on the spread of CD-rom...This can be explained cause of some special happenings. Myst became a legend cause of the critics. It was a game anyone must have plaied it. People who had PCs had to ubtain a cd-rom to play this game...It was something like...you had to do...Even people that never knew about games and adventures had their hands on this game... All this caused many thinks, good and bad towards games and adventures.... Myst wasn't the good game it was suppose it was (my opinion, but i try to criticise as an outsider) It was selled as an adventure but it was actually a puzzle-game with a world full of life... Secondly..the world wasn't so full as it was meant to be...(of course a task difficult to be made at such a time) Do people when they turn heads close their eyes until they look at the new direction? Or when they walk? Game sucked as an adventure as it had NO story and NO chars (2 of the most importand things in adventure games)...and sucked at its supposed job (to bring gamers to another dimention) as the gamer couldn't feel he was walking in that world... So the game was saved by its puzzles, that were very hard (said, i found them just fine) and thus made its myth bigger, as it was named one of the hardest games.... As a resort Myst was like Sims without internet....funny and interesting at the start and SO boring after... People throught it away. Adventuregamers plaied it and many like it...but myst made the simple people think that adventures are like that....Later Myst-clones....more awful made the adventure community to stay at a small potition as the "others" were so bored from those games that left for games with action etc...That's why till now there are people that never plaied a true adventure game... Myst was givven TOO much publicity...that caused yes as trep said, the push for the creators to try more and more new thingings....BUT....true creators....always use something new....So myst was only a push to the middle and bad creators So if you think of it Myst caused a majic bad effect on adventures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkoubyDoo Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 "You must have missed this:" Missed what? I mentioned T7G earlier. So T7G was the first Cd-Rom game, ok. But how was Myst the one "that truly exploited the power of cd-rom gaming." I said earlier I thought T7G was technologically superior, and you have said nothing to disprove that. I think you mean: Myst was the first CD-Rom game that was so popular it dictated adventure game development for the next X years. Ok, next. "No, it hasn't been innovative in the past several years. That was my point. However, I was talking specifically about technological influences in the design and where that could take the game, nothing else. Hence, Myst was revolutionary. I don't think the next significant technical innovation will come until Broken Sword 3 and Uru: Ages Beyond Myst are released. And in those games, from what we all have seen and read, the technology looks to be central to how the game - and gameplay - will be experienced, from the design of gameworld, to how the puzzles will be engineered, and even how players will be able to communicate with each other . Even non-adventure gamers are taking notice." Sorry you didn't make that point. You talk about how Myst has influenced so many games today and was revolutionary, but there's no innovation today? So then Myst was revolutionary in a bad way? Make the points before you claim them atleast. I sure hope upcoming games utlize today's technology to incorporate new gameplay ideas (GK3 was good but didn't take advantage of the 3D world like I had hoped.) The other genres have been innovating for years, its about time this genre does again. PS. Please be nice! PPS. real-time gameplay was The Last Express then Blade Runner then GK3 I believe real-time all 3D graphics? Probably UAKM for adventure games or ROTH or GK3 depending how you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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