A feeling (*spoilers from latest trailer*)

[Archonon]

Unfortunately I don't see it that way. Firstly I don't acknowledge the existance of Light and Dark Side Force powers like the games represent. The way I see it both Jedi and Sith can utilize either power its how they use it that determines the effect.

 

There is nothing in my recollection that points out the existance of something called a "Dark Jedi" either. Unless you mean references to such a thing made by EU novels or games. I don't recall once in any movie the term Dark Jedi being mentioned.

 

Qui-gon refers to his encounter in Tatooine with Maul as someone greatly trained in the Jedi arts (or something to that effect) then he immediately refers to him as being a Sith Warrior. During the Millenia that the Sith were believed extinct there has also never been a reference that any Jedi delt with Force sensitive opponents, outside the EU I mean. Which is why the Jedi had stopped using Dooku's fencing style combat designed for fighting another saber wielding opponent and used techniques with blunt slashes and concentrating in deflelcting blaster bolts.

 

I find no evidence of Dark Jedi existing outside the EU and as such I view Dark Side users to be Sith, Jedi origins or not. What I assign to the classification of Jedi and Sith is the religion they worship. I have also not seen any Jedi that uses their powers for their own benefit outside of the Jedi Order that wasn't a Sith Warrior, such as Tyranus. Again these are my own conclusions because I do not utilize EU definitions, I use only what is established in the movies.

[lukeiamyourdad]

What's the point to this debate???

 

Anyway who cares it's just a game and a movie...

[Archonon]

Am, I was not trying to form any kind of debate really.

 

I was simply stating my opinion on the subject and providing as much weight to my statement as I could to back up what I was talking about, especially because I see a lot on these boards that people complain when someone gives an opinion and doesn't back it up with anything.

 

Mind you I am not saying you are wrong, I just see it differently than you that's all. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to the my point of view just putting it out there as part of a discussion.

 

And I agree with you it's just a movie, etc. But unfotunately, the dabtes that usually come up are dumb things like this and wether Boba Fett is still alive.

[Obi-Wan X]

Unfortunately I don't see it that way. Firstly I don't acknowledge the existance of Light and Dark Side Force powers like the games represent. The way I see it both Jedi and Sith can utilize either power its how they use it that determines the effect.

 

I actually agree

 

Qui-gon refers to his encounter in Tatooine with Maul as someone greatly trained in the Jedi arts (or something to that effect) then he immediately refers to him as being a Sith Warrior. During the Millenia that the Sith were believed extinct there has also never been a reference that any Jedi delt with Force sensitive opponents, outside the EU I mean. Which is why the Jedi had stopped using Dooku's fencing style combat designed for fighting another saber wielding opponent and used techniques with blunt slashes and concentrating in deflelcting blaster bolts.

 

Qui-Gon was quite knowledgable in the Jedi ways. You'd have to be an idiot not to study your enemy in at least some form. Qui-Gon probably used his knowledge of the Sith to determine these facts. And I believe there had to be at least SOME jedi that fell to the darkside and were defeated. Though this is simply speculation. And what about Mace Windu, he uses a style that is dangerously close to the darkside I believe. But wasn't there something said about a dark jedi being killed by Yoda on Dagobah? Or was this Eu?

 

 

 

I find no evidence of Dark Jedi existing outside the EU and as such I view Dark Side users to be Sith, Jedi origins or not. What I assign to the classification of Jedi and Sith is the religion they worship. I have also not seen any Jedi that uses their powers for their own benefit outside of the Jedi Order that wasn't a Sith Warrior, such as Tyranus. Again these are my own conclusions because I do not utilize EU definitions, I use only what is established in the movies.

 

There are only two Sith, which was stated and seen at times in the films. Now in the EU, it would probably only take a dark jedi to simply find a sith book and study its actual teachings, thus they get an apprentice and this cycle starts again.

 

But a "Dark" Jedi doesn't have to worship anything. Simply using the forces power as a weapon doesn't mean you worship it.

[Kurgan]

Well a Jedi or Sith may not "worship" the Force (or a side of it) per se, but the ways in which they express their understanding of it seem to come very close to our understanding of worship.

 

It has a "will" and makes prophecies (and fulfills them).

 

It has followers.

 

The Jedi's headquarters is called a "Temple" (a temple is a house of worship).

 

The Jedi are an Order (like a religious order, which usually center around a life of worship and service).

 

It can be let to "flow through you" like a spiritual presence. It can "control your actions" like spirit possession. That a person would willingly allow this to happen, compares to some forms of worship.

 

Now it is not perfectly cut and dried like that... how many times do you hear people refer to their god as "obeying their commands?"

 

Then again, in some ways, making sacrafices and offerings, and prayer is, in a sense, hoping that the deity or spirit will do what you want, since you are expecting something to happen...

 

Anyway. Just some ideas. Obviously the Jedi have their own conception of what the Force is like, they believe in a Dark side (the term "Light Side" isn't used in the movies).

 

As time goes on, in the EU, a lot of the Jedi knowledge is lost (for example the lightsaber colors, the clothing, the vows of celibacy, the policy of training students from birth, the names given to students (youngling, padawan), and the master rule (Luke teaches his students in an "Academy" whereas this is part of what Yoda does, they go individually with masters as padawan learners in the Old Republic time).

 

Likewise, knowledge of the Sith could also have been lost. The last two Sith were killed, and had no chance to train successors (not even counting EU characters like Mara Jade and other "hands" of the Emperor who were actually low level force sensitives who only "thought" they had real power, but were being controlled by the Emperor).

 

Since it was Darth Bane (according to the canon TPM novel) that started the "only two sith" rule, its altogether possible that this rule no longer exists, so there could be lots of people taking up the "Dark Lord of the Sith" mantle for all we know, in the EU "present." It's a big galaxy...

 

In AOTC (canon novel) there were something like 22 (?) Jedi who had "left the order" in recent memory. That doesn't have to mean they all became Sith, but it opens the door for "Dark Jedi." What would cause them to turn away? Breaking parts of the Jedi code probably, and among them would be devotion to the Dark Side of the force, the antithesis of the Jedi philosophy.

 

Sorry for getting off on a tangent...

[Dr_night]

sounds GREAT but unlikley i mean what's to stop them frommaking several clones of you? hence

[Andy867]

Originally posted by Kurgan

In AOTC (canon novel) there were something like 22 (?) Jedi who had "left the order" in recent memory. That doesn't have to mean they all became Sith, but it opens the door for "Dark Jedi."

 

I believe it was the Lost/Forgotten 20, Dooku making the 20th Jedi to leave the order. At least to our knowledge.

And to the Jedi, they see the light side as just the one way of the Force and how its supposed to be used, when in reality both sides are available, its like what some have been saying: Its how you use them that determines your path.

 

But to get back on topic, I feel there is 3 different answers. She is the end boss, she is an apprentice or follower or someone else (like Kurgan was saying about the worshipping), or she is just another Dark Jedi.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Well I partially agree Archonon, it's not really what Force power you use, it's how you use them. For example , push , pull, grip and throw are all really the same ability/alteration made with the Force. But say pushing a person on his rear end so you can make a quick escape or pushing said person off a cliff will be more likely to decide wether you're closer to the light, or the dark. Altough the exceptions in this would be , for example, healing yourself or others using the Force and tossing lightning. There are no two ways about it, lightning is a very agressive power and I don't see any excuseable reason why a Jedi Knight/Master should use it.

 

But on the Dark Jedi = Sith debate however, As Yoda and others said, there can only be two Sith at any given time. Where do we rank all other Force sensitive beings who fall prey to the dark side then?

[Archonon]

Andy is correct about the "Lost Twenty" to which Dooku was the last one to leave and the hardest impact felt by the Order according to the extended dialogue in the AOTC screenplay where the Librarian (Ju or Nu Casta?) explains this to Obi-wan.

 

As I view it the Lost Twenty left the Order. But Dooku aside, the other nienteen have never been identified as leaving the Order to the Dark Side, only that they left the Jedi. There are a billion explanations why the other 19 could have left which have nothing to do with the Dark Side.

 

The identification of the Jedi and Sith as a religion comes from A New Hope where Grand Moff Tarkin tells Vader "He's the only one left of that religion" meaning the Jedi. And there very close and obvious similarities that can be made between the Force and religious faith as Kurgan pointed.

 

The Force powers I have always felt are too black and white in their portrayal. It's like if a Jedi attacks a Sith Warrior without starting the confrontation then off he goes to the Dark Side (you know what I mean). I don't really agree with that concept, and I know that's from Lucas himself. Lightning is a destructive Force power but if you recall Dooku's comment when he launches lightning at Obi he says his power has grown far beyond Obi's. Lightning I find is like the manisfestation of pure energy within the Force, only people very highly attuned to the Force can channel Lightning through and from them. I think that combat is grey, a Jedi can use Lightning without being in the Dark Side its how he uses it and against who that matters. If the Jedi is in a duel against a Sith or Dark Jedi or even a dumb battle droid using Lightning as a way to defeat the opponent is to me acceptable as long as his heart remains pure (I hope you understand what I mean by this), even the Emperor had to maintain consecutive attacks to really injure Luke and threaten his life.

 

Pedro, you are also correct about Yoda's statement. So here's my best explanation to my point of view. I don't think the Sith as something so static. Bane implemented the 2 Sith rule because of the consequences of the Great Sith War if I recollect correctly, among other things the continous power struggles between Siths to claim leadership and even the war between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh. But just because Bane implemented the 2 Sith rule doesn't necessarily mean that the rule would stay implemented forever or that it can't be changed. I see it that a new Sith Lord can throw away that rule should it seem unwise to him and create a new Sith Army if he should choose, that's how I classify the other Dark Side users. As I recall the Sith had remained extinct originally until several Jedi began studying them and eventually fell to the Dark Side. From here came characters like Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Simus, etc. Even though the Sith was effectively extict the Jedi that studied them and eventually fell became Siths themselves. That's how I apply it to modern times also; the Sith is a "religion" devoted to the Dark Side of the Force while Jedi the Light, ying and yang. When you study the Dark Side what you are studying is Sith teachings and as such once you learn and use those as your code, you are a Sith. I write SW fanfics and that's how I interpret it in my stories, I hope it sort of makes sense to you.

 

To get on topic I don't think the red Twi'lek is a clone it makes more sense to me she holds a position similar to Tavion's in Outcast. Who knows maybe she's part of a group like Jerec's in JK.

 

I apologize for once again getting off topic and making such an long post.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Ah it's okay, if everybody interprited the Star Wars universe in the same way it would make for dull conversation anyway. ^^

[Kurgan]

There are no two ways about it, lightning is a very agressive power and I don't see any excuseable reason why a Jedi Knight/Master should use it.

 

You guys make a good point about powers being neutral and the intentions and feelings of the user determining whether they are dark or light.

 

The philosophy of the Sith is rage and anger, seeking after power. The philosophy of the Jedi is seeking inner calm and peace, while giving service to (what they believe to be) justice.

 

Other schools may have different philosophies. It's like super powers in comics. Some people who have them use them for "good" (Super heroes) others use them for "evil" (Super villians). Because just having the power doesn't tell you how to use it (the ethics and goals behind it).

 

Back to the example about lightning... I can see where use of Force Lightning could be done by a Light Jedi. For example, for compassion... a Jedi could use Lightning to stun or subdue an opponent instead of using lethal force (of course one could always say its something of a paradox how Jedi can slay their enemies by the hundred with their Lightsabers, but grip a guy to death once and all of a sudden it's "evil"... unless of course we're just talking about misusing the force for violence.. but non force violence is okay). Also, the Lightning could be used to power a generator or to cook some food, or to make a fireworks display. ; )

 

It could be used to over-load droid systems for example. I guess one could argue that somehow, the only way to make Force Lightning is to use rage and anger, and thus it HAS to be a darkside power.

 

Grip on the other hand, as others have stated is just a different appliction of the Push/Pull powers. Luke used it on some Gammorean guards, and he didn't seem particularly angry at the time (and for all we know, he just gripped them into unconsciousness rather than killing them).

[Emon]

Any offensive use of the Force is using the dark side, there is no question. Using the dark side doesn't mean you are a dark jedi, it just means you tapped into the dark side of the Force. The RotJ novel clearly states that Luke was using the dark side to choke the gammoreans.

[Miko Reglia]

i think that dark jedi and sith are two different things. remember in the movies and expanded universe books, after the sith wars, there was only one master and one apprentice. so how could there be other dark jedi, who in this case you all say they are the same as sith, be existant at the same time as two sith?

 

Also let me point out one other reference:

 

notice that in all the movies you have - Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus, Darth Vader, the some Expanded Universe characters like Darth Bane, anyone else notice something fishy going on there? They are all Sith, hence why their names start with Darth!

 

Now let's go to the Dark Jedi:

 

Jerec, Yun, Desann, Tavion, even Jorrus C'baoth (from the Zahn books), they were all dark jedi but were never sith, since they never had received the proper training from a Sith Lord, they just use the dark side of the force to try to gain power for themselves in the galaxy for specific reasons. Jerec wanted to be the most powerful, Jorrus wanted to be the next emperor, Desann wanted to destroy those who wronged him and bring an end to the Jedi, etc.

 

Last reference - remember Darth Vader wants to exterminate ALL Jedi after the Clone Wars, why? because he doesnt want another Dark Jedi to take his place as "The Dark Lord of the Sith".

 

Pretty much all in all:

 

Dark Jedi=Force Adept people who wish to use the Dark Side of the Force to gain power in their own liking.

 

Sith=Force Adept people who are trained to use the Dark Side of the Force to corrupt society and become rulers of the galaxy.

[Blademaster_109]

i think its a cool idea, but i doubt it will happen though.

[Archonon]

I appreciate and respect your point of view Alexi but I don't agree with it. I've already touched on every single point you mentioned in your post from the aspect of being trained by a Sith Lord to become a Sith to the fact that I do not base my opinion in accordance with anything said in the EU. And for the sake of everyone here who might not want to see this discussion continue I will not rewrite what I already put down in my other posts or repeat why I see things the way I do.

 

Fact is that the only "Dark Jedi" presented in the movies have been Sith, even Vader and Dooku who were Jedi before turning to the Dark Side became Sith Lords. Also a great number of these enemies were never members of the Jedi Order to begin with, if they weren't Jedi why are they still called "Dark Jedi"? In any case thanks for adding your comments to the discussion.

 

And Emon I partly agree with what you said. I definately agree that Force powers are all neutral in essence, Lightning and even Rage included. How they use those powers and what is their intent is what determines the Light or Dark. Like it was mentioned earlier, if a Jedi swings or stabs with a lightsaber and kills his opponent then no one considers that to be tapping into the Dark Side. Yet if a Jedi kills using Ligthning or Grip then it's Dark Side...why? They are the same result just different methods. What was inside the Jedi is what counts the way I see it. Anger is just the initial step to the Dark Side, and a Jedi using his anger is not a condemnation to the Dark Side, it's progressing from his anger to hatred and then allowing the hatred to actually take you, for I see it as something you have to accept willingly. Hatred is the true path to darkness because as Yoda said it leads to causing suffering, not because say you kill your parent's killer in an act of vengeance but because the hatred from that act will consume you and soon you'll spill that beyond that first person until it affects all you deal with right or wrong, it's a process.

[Andy867]

Originally posted by Emon

Any offensive use of the Force is using the dark side, there is no question. Using the dark side doesn't mean you are a dark jedi, it just means you tapped into the dark side of the Force. The RotJ novel clearly states that Luke was using the dark side to choke the gammoreans.

 

And like Yoda said, the Force is for use of knowledge and DEFENSE. never attack. Although Ive heard stories that basically every Force user can use Light and Dark side powers willingly with knowledge of them, but its HOW you use them that determines your path. Since the Gammoreans weren't going to allow Luke by, he used Grip to immobilize them and get them out of his path to save his friends, hence a self-defensive posture in an aggressive manner.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Back to the example about lightning... I can see where use of Force Lightning could be done by a Light Jedi. For example, for compassion... a Jedi could use Lightning to stun or subdue an opponent instead of using lethal force (of course one could always say its something of a paradox how Jedi can slay their enemies by the hundred with their Lightsabers, but grip a guy to death once and all of a sudden it's "evil"...

Well the only time we see a Jedi slay living enemies by the dozen is in the games. When Jedi do strike things down by the dozen it's droids, and knocking out an enemy droid won't make you a dark sider. I guess that if a "real"(read: non game) Jedi had to deal with a dozen of living enemies that he'd find some alternative that wouldn't lead to killing them. Like disarming then with the Force.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: And on the twin issue, I've just gone back to the May issue of PC Gamer UK which featured that first look at Jedi Academy, and in it I saw a concept sketch that looks exactly like the evil Twi'lek girl seen in the trailer, so I think the twin thing is sort of out of the question now.