Solo Saber Nerfed Thread

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Ardent

No opinions necessary. Saber throw is broken. It gets hitched up on the ARIOCHE terrain engine and fails to return, which creates all sorts of problems. Mine wouldn't return for close to 3 minutes on the Corellian train level. I had to dodge the enemies and try not to get hit so I could maintain my saber-only win.

 

Sure, that doesn't equal the gameplay is broken in itself. There are bugs, yes. It is not a bug to fail to include kicks, for example.

 

There's not such thing as an "isolated" case when you're talking about a car that sits in 10% of American driveways

 

It's isolated because you can fix that belt strap and not hurt the "performance" of the car. You can patch a game and hurt the performance of it, witnessed by 1.03.

 

No they wouldn't. Unless they wanted to. And it wouldn't realistically make the staff less effective.

 

It would, compared to the other stances, since they'd be getting something that was once a staff-exclusive. And if the staff can kick with the double tap, why even bother with the much less potent built-in kicks?

 

I doubt, and let me stress, that a cvar will make as much difference as admin mods did. Admin mods screwed up JO not because you could add dual and doublesabers and whatnot, but BECAUSE IT ALLOWED THE ADMIN TO BULLY EVERYONE ON THE SERVER. The end.

 

They did that too, yes. And we both agree that the admin mods were bad.

 

It is not humanly possible to consider every side of a situation.

 

Hold it right there, hoss. I'm well aware that we cannot know for sure what such a patch might result in, but you know well too that wasn't what I meant. My point is that releasing it now where people have not yet thought of counter moves to the spammed ones, is too early. My opinion of course, but when the patch does come, I want it to be thought-out and based on a broader perspective than what we have now.

 

BTW there is no answer for the butterfly except to duck away

 

I know, I was just using it as an example. I'm hoping this and your problems will be fixed as well. We clear?

 

I don't think I'm the one misunderstanding. I proved beyond a reasonable doubt his hypocrisy (on two counts now) and I can prove that there's no such thing as a premature patch.

 

And there's no such thing as "broken gameplay", either - you're both talking about your subjective stances on this. He thinks that now would mean a premature patch, while you think that there's no acceptable replacement for kick. It's not facts we're discussing here. His logic is not circular at all once you view it this way.

 

As for the rest of your post, I'm afraid I can't be goaded as easily as you'd like.

 

Goaded? I was just curious why you made such a blanket statement as "proven effective" without backing it up, and using in-game abbreviations on a forum board.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Spider AL

That is a question I ask myself every time I come across your name in this thread and feel the urge to read any lower. The answer is that laughter is the best medicine, and I'm a sick puppy.

 

No it's not. If it was you'd've stopped by now. I'm only maintaining the win.

 

I like the fact that you've trollishly avoided replying to my cutting, ardent-argument-destroying post, by the way. Like the ostrich, you stick your head in the sand, hoping that the great destroyer will be gone when you look up.

 

I avoided a post that was so clearly a goad it practically said "FLAME ME BACK SO I CAN REPORT YOUR POST TO THE ADMIN" in between the lines. I'm sorry if you may have included some cutting, ardent-argument-destroying words in there, but they're lost on me. Why? Because I'd already won. I proved the point I needed to. I can go back and QUOTE your hypocrisy if you'd like, but it's hardly necessary. It's plainly there for everyone to see. You say one thing about patching, then you say something entirely opposite about patching but try to tack on a non-existant caveat. The end. There is no difference between a bug fix and a gameplay adjustment when you consider the overall effect on gameplay: it's different. THE END.

 

I fear you'll find that you have no legs left, when you've finished blinking the sand from your lids, however.

 

wtf is that supposed to mean? You'd've been better served to say something witty. Oh wait, I was just informed that that's what you were attempting. Ouch.

 

I wonder who gets to define which observer is unbiased. I guess Ardent thinks it's him. I guess he thinks his wee friends are unbiased observers.

 

No, I asked someone who never has and never will play a Jedi Knight game who I only vaguely consider a friend (we hate each other more often than we like each other) to take a look at the thread. She agreed I'd debased you, as a debater, which debases the validity of your arguments. It's a cheap, dirty tactic (she said it herself) but like most ways to cheat: it works.

 

YOUR LOGIC WOUNDS ME! IT WOUNDS ME TO THE BONE! ARRRGH!

 

You're a squid. Why? Because I said so. HA I WIN GGZ!!!!

 

Go goad someone else.

 

Those who want change need to ask themselves that question. You want change? Why? Bugs must be fixed, gameplay is an abstract concept and until it's been fully explored it should not be tampered with.

 

I don't need to ask myself a question because I've already asked the most important one: why wasn't any of this addressed between the illegal beta and the final release? I mean, if you were part of the community you couldn't help but hear all about the illegal beta. Oh by the way...I guess you missed my point about it being impossible to fully explore anything dynamic like gameplay. Too bad, because if I were going by your logic, it would have slashed your tires. ^-^

 

Yes yes, I know you consider yourself the all-knowing NG CTF0r. That doesn't break any ice with me, meladdo. You don't even care how your "improvements" might affect the larger community, so that invalidates any non-trolling opinions you might have had to begin with.

 

No, you don't really understand the magnitude of my grandiose nature. Didn't they tell you? I am omniscient and prescient. Come on man, get off it. CVARs will or will not be used by the people who do or do not want to use them. End of story.

 

So who the heck are you to tell us we have to play the game that only exists in your head? You're nobody.

 

Correction: I am everyone that you're not. There's a subtle and demanding difference. To Raven, I am simply one more person, but to you and your opinion, I am the be-all and the end-all. Emphasis on the end.

 

Good choice of car. I think you're talking about a bug in the car though. Nobody wants bugs in a game. Bugs must be fixed.

 

I think so. Despite a plethora of other, nicer cars in the garage (and scattered about the driveway on most days), my dad still drives a "slightly modified" Taurus station wagon. They're obviously owner-pleasers. This is the same sort of issue, however. A fix to the belt problem is ultimately going to lead to a change in how to vehicle feels. Either relatively on the road or literally in the sensations of occupying it.

 

Bugs are bugs. Bugs are errors. Bugs crash the game, bugs allow someone to use an invisible skin. Bugs cause a change of skin to lose a player a duel. Bugs? Fix them.

 

Granted but...

 

But gameplay? Gameplay is subjective. One man enjoys one gametype, another does not. That doesn't mean either of them are "right" or "wrong". What it means is that each has a right to enjoy his own gametype, and nobody has the right to demand that that gametype be changed. That is why one must wait a while and play a while before gameplay patching is demanded. Because we must KNOW that the things we ask for aren't going to ruin someone else's gametype. You say that your gametype is bogged up? That's a shame. That doesn't mean you get to risk OUR gametypes, or the enjoyment of the community at large.

 

Nope! Invariably, and I think I'll re-emphasize this to make it even more clear: INVARIABLY a bug fix will have some effect on gameplay. WHY would it matter if we added a couple of cvars in? They will have exactly the same amount of effect on gameplay as the bug fixes will: exactly as much as the player intends to let help or hinder him. I certainly DO get to risk your gametypes because, if what you say is true, they're NOT AT RISK FROM THIS CHANGE.

 

No premature gameplay patching for JA, Raven!

 

No immature manifesto-spewing will be done here!

 

A bug is defined as a flaw, error or ommission in the code or resources of a game that causes an effect the developer didn't intend when they made the game. Generally these days the word refers to some UNDESIRABLE thing that the developer didn't intend when they made the game, though in the early days even bugs like rocket jumping that proved over time desirable to the community were still called bugs....blahblahblahblah

 

While I had to edit your diatribe for the sake of my post's length, I did read it and it sucked. Hardcore. Almost as much as an admin with Admin Mod v1.1. Almost.

 

I, AS THE CONSUMER, am exactly the right person to determine what is and isn't a bug for me. Raven, as the developer, is the right entity to determine which bug needs fixing and which is nothing to be concerned with. So, if the word refers to something UNDESIRABLE (well snip your definition there because the rest is fluff), then I want two things removed immediately: NF guns as an option (this of course is merely to spite you and probably won't be granted because it's one of those "nothing to be concerned with" kind of bugs) and all of the saber boo-boos (this is a more legitimate request). While you're at it, can you take 10 minutes to enable a g_kick 0/1 cvar for me? Thanks.

 

While we're on the subject of bugs not to be concerned with...

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Prime

By that logic who the heck are you to say that Raven is wrong for not releasing a patch? You're a NOBODY. If Raven feels that gameplay isn't overly flawed from day one (and for all we know this might be how they feel) they might not think it is necessary to release a gameplay patch, at least not right away. If that means we have to wait for a few months then we will have to wait.

 

Saying they'd be wrong to wait any longer than they have to. Dismissed.

[Agen]

Ardent.. Listen to Al.

[traj]

Agen.. listen to Ardent

[Spider AL]

Ardent:

 

No it's not. If it was you'd've stopped by now.

I'm not even sure that YOU'RE entirely certain which bit of my paragraph that was supposed to respond to. I'm sure of one thing: Your line, the one I just quoted, is meaningless flamebait.

 

I proved the point I needed to. I can go back and QUOTE your hypocrisy if you'd like, but it's hardly necessary. It's plainly there for everyone to see. You say one thing about patching, then you say something entirely opposite about patching but try to tack on a non-existant caveat.

You proved only one thing: That you are unaware of what the word "hypocrisy" means. Please do go back and quote anything I've said and call it hypocrisy. I will merely scotch your frankly misbegotten attempt at logical discourse once again. It matters naught to me.

 

Perhaps you think the word "hypocrisy" means "elite and truly jawdroppingly witty argument by Spider AL". That might explain it.

 

Go goad someone else.

Talking to yourself again eh... first sign of madness, so I hear...

 

wtf is that supposed to mean?

It means you don't have a leg to stand on, and you probably don't even realise it... though it's more likely that you're aware of your failiure, and you're simply trying to bluster your way out of the hole you've dug yourself into.

 

No, I asked someone who never has and never will play a Jedi Knight game who I only vaguely consider a friend (we hate each other more often than we like each other) to take a look at the thread.

You got some woman you know to look at the thread, and on the strength of her recommendation you conclude that you are the unbiased public's man of the hour? What, you couldn't get her to formulate your arguments for you? But if she considers you an elite debat0r, perhaps she wouldn't have fared any better than you have. Glad to see that even misguided soul such as she didn't agree that your "arguments" themselves held any water though.

 

To be quite honest this is turning into something of a spectacle. Do go on, I'm genuinely absorbed in this now.

 

Come on man, get off it. CVARs will or will not be used by the people who do or do not want to use them.

And splitting the community in twain, like all major premature single gameplay alterations. Thanks for reminding me.

 

I am everyone that you're not.

Of course you are. I wonder if Prime, Emon, Kurgan, Boinga, Agen and all the others know that they are in fact, errant portions of YOU. Perhaps you should inform them of the fact.

 

While I had to edit your diatribe for the sake of my post's length, I did read it and it sucked. Hardcore.

Thank you for simultaneously admitting your inability to bluster your way out of the logical net that the obvious fact that the addition of kick would not be a bugfix threw over you...

 

And also gracing my sight with the words "it sucked, hardcore".

 

I, AS THE CONSUMER, am exactly the right person to determine what is and isn't a bug for me.

Oh as the CONSUMER you're welcome to delude yourself in any way you see fit. A bug is what the developer doesn't intend, and since you currently don't control the minds of Raven through little chitinous alien parasites wrapped around their cerebral cortexes, I don't think that you're qualified to tell us what they were thinking when they decided that a general kick move wouldn't be included in JA, personally. Of course it's not a bug, and as such it is only your idea of a gameplay improvement. As such it should not be implemented until a heavy cooling off period has concluded. QED.

 

Traj:

 

I've stated that three months will pass before I MYSELF start lobbying for the changes I want. Thus it is indeed my idea of a good time to start lobbying. But that's not my main point. My main point is that NOW would be too soon. We can debate exactly when would be okay, if you like. But now is DEFINITELY too soon.

 

And frankly, the tone of your posts is almost as offensive as Ardent's. You really should sort that out. There's no need for it, unless you're intentionally trolling.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Ardent

I, AS THE CONSUMER, am exactly the right person to determine what is and isn't a bug for me.

 

Do we agree you said this?

 

Because this is the worst load of horsedung I've heard from you, yet. It's simply not true that customers are in the position to decide what are bugs and what aren't, and no amount of screaming, chest-beating and "Dismissed" is going to change that.

 

And you can stop all this "I'm maintaining my win" crap as well. This is f*ckin' kindergarden rhetoric.

[traj]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Traj:

 

It wouldn't make me happy. But I have to tell you, if you expected your clan and all your JO NG CTF friends to step with you into a utopian land of eternal JA NG CTF, you were misguided.

 

And if you expected the competitive community to walk into this game, find it screwed up, and not ask for changes that may possibly fragment an already fragmented community while definitely improving it by eliminating deadlocked stalemates in at least 2 forms of gameplay, you too were misguided.

 

That is not an excuse for wilfully fragmenting it further.

 

It's not going to matter Al. We will either play the way we like, or not play at all. So will everyone else. I've explained this before.

 

That would be fine, but you're trying to affect everyone else's gametypes in addition to your own. That's not fine. For that purpose, you must wait a goodly length of time and be certain that your changes will not adversely affect the gameplay of other modes, while possibly improving your own.

 

Here it is again. We must wait until AL decides there has been enough time to tell Raven that they screwed the game up for FF/SO CTF and FF Duels and then we can ask for our cvars that will only fragment the community between those who would have never played anyways, and those who like the game the way it is.

 

The only possible further fragmentation could come from players who decide that they like a more competitve based game. Not too many in my opinion. Many casual players do not seem to want cvars in the game. They will go where they are happy, and so wiil we.

[Spider AL]

Traj:

 

And if you expected the competitive community to walk into this game, find it screwed up, and not ask for changes

I have to stop you there Traj. You and your friends are only one portion of the JEDI OUTCAST competitive community. It is frankly silly to buy a new game and expect it to live up to a preconceived notion you've formulated in your head. Nobody ever promised you "NG CTF in JA will rock". You expected that all on your own. It's nobody's fault but your own that you were wrong.

 

It's not going to matter Al. We will either play the way we like, or not play at all. So will everyone else. I've explained this before.

You've SAID it before. And you're quite correct in that: If a player of a game doesn't LIKE that said game, he/she will not play that game.

 

And that's right and proper. If I didn't like JA the way you don't like JA... it would be IN THE TRASH by now.

 

Here it is again. We must wait until AL decides there has been enough time

Hey, it's too soon. You can debate that with me, but cease all this self-indulgent "SPIDAR IS A HITLOR" nonsense. I'm not the one trying to force his view of what the game should be like on ALL other players, you are.

[traj]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Traj:

 

I've stated that three months will pass before I MYSELF start lobbying for the changes I want. Thus it is indeed my idea of a good time to start lobbying. But that's not my main point. My main point is that NOW would be too soon. We can debate exactly when would be okay, if you like. But now is DEFINITELY too soon.

 

And frankly, the tone of your posts is almost as offensive as Ardent's. You really should sort that out. There's no need for it, unless you're intentionally trolling.

 

My tone is offensive? Hearing this from you I am speechless. Honestly...buy a mirror sir. Unbelievable.

 

And why is it that anyone who takes a viewpoint opposite yours is a troll? I think you suffer from Trollanoia sir. I am here to express my opinions same as you. Mine are clearly stated as yours are, and we disagree. Thats all.

 

You think that it's up to you to decide how much time is enough time to think about altering gameplay. I think that cvars would hardly fragment the community much more than it already is, and could save a large portion of the competitive community that has it's bags packed and is ready to ship off never to return.

 

These are opinions Al, neither of us has a crystal ball. You believe in one thing to be in the best interest of the community, I believe in another.

 

Nothing trollish about it. We're having a discussion. Relax.

[traj]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Traj:

 

I have to stop you there Traj. You and your friends are only one portion of the JEDI OUTCAST competitive community. It is frankly silly to buy a new game and expect it to live up to a preconceived notion you've formulated in your head. Nobody ever promised you "NG CTF in JA will rock". You expected that all on your own. It's nobody's fault but your own that you were wrong.

 

You're right. I had a silly preconceived notion that FF/SO CTF games and FF Duels would have an outcome. I thought a winner and a loser would be decided. My bad.

 

You've SAID it before. And you're quite correct in that: If a player of a game doesn't LIKE that said game, he/she will not play that game.

 

And that's right and proper. If I didn't like JA the way you don't like JA... it would be IN THE TRASH by now.

 

Thats the difference between you and I. I bought a product that I am not pleased with, and I intend to let the vendor know that I am displeased. I am not going to throw my $54 in the trash when the vendor has in the past fixed certain inadequacies in their game with patches. I intend to get my moneys worth, though I honestly do not believe that it will be at the expense of the JA community at large.

 

Hey, it's too soon.

 

Too soon, in your opinion. You left that out.

 

 

You can debate that with me, but cease all this self-indulgent "SPIDAR IS A HITLOR" nonsense. I'm not the one trying to force his view of what the game should be like on ALL other players, you are.

 

 

And you call me the troll... /roll I never called you "HITLOR" (if I did I certainly wouldn't spell it wrong). I think that you are trying to "force" your view of how much time is enough time to fix gameplay. Thats not nonsense. You are trying to do that.

 

You know what I believe, no need to repeat again.

[Spider AL]

Traj:

 

These are opinions Al, neither of us has a crystal ball. You believe in one thing to be in the best interest of the community, I believe in another.

 

Nothing trollish about it. We're having a discussion. Relax.

Implying strongly that everything I say is "smug" no less than three times in that single post is not in the best interests of the community, it's just insulting, and it's trolling. I was trying to have a discussion, you were sitting around spitting venom. And you tell me to relax? Be more mature please.

 

And the whole point of this affair is that NOBODY has a crystal ball. So don't fool around with assertions that the changes you want wouldn't affect the community in a negative way, since you've just admitted that you yourself have no power to see the future. It's BECAUSE none of us can see the future that we have to wait a teensy bit longer than TWO WEEKS after the game's release to start declaring that it must be changed.

 

Too soon, in your opinion. You left that out.

No, it's just too soon. And if you were as interested in the welfare of the community as you are in trying to "win" an argument, you'd admit it too, and I'll elaborate on why: Five minutes after the game's release is too soon, we can both agree on that, surely. If not, then it's obvious that you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

But why is it too soon? Logically, because five minutes after the game's released, nobody has had enough time to learn enough about it to be qualified! To be expert!

 

So any point in time before people have learned sufficiently to be expert in THIS GAME SPECIFICALLY, is too soon to patch the gameplay.

 

But since we all learn at different rates (one person might become knowledgable sooner than others) how can one pick a time? One can pick a time on past experience. In other games, there has been a RAPID evolution of techniques and skills. This took approximately two-three months to level off. After that point, new discoveries are made, but not as earth-shattering as the discoveries made in the first few months.

 

THAT is the foundation for my personal idea of the ideal time, three months. Feel free to debate that if you like, but one thing you CANNOT debate is that two weeks after a game is released, MASSIVE changes to tactics and moves are still ongoing! So sure, argue for two months if you like. One and a half even. But two weeks? Get out of town. It's obviously too early.

 

You're right. I had a silly preconceived notion that FF/SO CTF games and FF Duels would have an outcome. I thought a winner and a loser would be decided. My bad.

What you're saying is that you EXPECTED the game to be good. Now that the game is not good in your opinion, you're disappointed, that's fine. But buying games isn't an exact science. You're not OWED a good game, making a good game is art. Once again, not science. That's why I try to play a friend's copy of a game before I buy it, usually. I bought JA because I knew I'd play the SP, even if I couldn't stand the MP.

 

Realistic expectations would have saved you a lot of heartache.

 

I think that cvars would hardly fragment the community much more than it already is

You're pulling the crystal ball again. You cannot possibly know how it would affect all those other gametypes you don't seem to care about. Or how it would affect a fragile community. Just because your friends and your group haven't translated well into JA, doesn't mean the community's falling apart. The community's just EVOLVING.

[traj]

You believe one thing and I believe another. That's what it all boils down to. The quote game is getting more and more useless, as we are always going to come back to this simple fact. We disagree.

 

I'm sorry if you're feelings were hurt when I said [insert smug phrase here], but honestly, that's exactly how many people interpret some of the things you say. I'm not alone, and if your intention is not to come across as smug, then maybe you need to examine some of the things you choose to post and how you choose to post them.

 

I could write yet another time why i disagree with you, but I've done it 3 times at least today. We have different opinions, and neither of us have a crystal ball. You think you're right, I think I'm right. Nothing you have posted has changed my opinion, and I'm sure nothing I have posted has changed yours.

 

Raven, please make the necessary changes in gameplay so that FF/SO CTF games and FF Duels can have a winner and a loser. No more deadlocked stalemates please.

 

And you called me a troll again Al. Relax.

[Spider AL]

Traj:

 

You believe one thing and I believe another. That's what it all boils down to. The quote game is getting more and more useless, as we are always going to come back to this simple fact. We disagree.

It would be an accurate analogy to say... you think the sky is green. I think it's blue. Yes, we disagree, but there's still a right and wrong. How to tell? Look out of the window.

 

I'm sorry if you're feelings were hurt when I said [insert smug phrase here], but honestly, that's exactly how many people interpret some of the things you say. I'm not alone

Heh, that doesn't wash, traj. I think you're a lot of things. I don't sit around saying them. Because that would be flaming. And flaming for the sake of flaming, or flaming in a goading fashion is trolling. One who trolls is a troll. And baby, that's what you've been doing from the word go.

 

Nothing you have posted has changed my opinion, and I'm sure nothing I have posted has changed yours.

All that proves is that one of us is stubborn. This isn't a relative nor yet a subjective issue. There's a right and a wrong. I've cited examples which aid my case... you've attacked me personally. Which of us has a better argument then?

 

And you called me a troll again Al.

You have trolled, therefore you are a troll. If you apologised, you might no longer be a troll. If you meant it. But then, that's not going to happen, is it.

 

Raven, remember all the games, including JO, that were ruined through premature patching, pandering to the vocal portions of communities! Don't patch the gameplay of JA until much more time has passed!

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by traj

You believe one thing and I believe another. That's what it all boils down to. The quote game is getting more and more useless, as we are always going to come back to this simple fact. We disagree.

 

I'm sorry if you're feelings were hurt when I said [insert smug phrase here], but honestly, that's exactly how many people interpret some of the things you say. I'm not alone, and if your intention is not to come across as smug, then maybe you need to examine some of the things you choose to post and how you choose to post them.

 

I could write yet another time why i disagree with you, but I've done it 3 times at least today. We have different opinions, and neither of us have a crystal ball. You think you're right, I think I'm right. Nothing you have posted has changed my opinion, and I'm sure nothing I have posted has changed yours.

 

Raven, please make the necessary changes in gameplay so that FF/SO CTF games and FF Duels can have a winner and a loser. No more deadlocked stalemates please.

 

And you called me a troll again Al. Relax.

 

As I see things, your opinion is that Raven should rush out a patch as soon as possible, recklessly adding the option for things which they had purposely left out.

 

Spider AL's opinion is that we should be cautious about requesting certain changes at this early date...it was not an accident that Raven took kicks entirely out of MP. (There is at least a cheat in SP that lets you do the flip kick)

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

it was not an accident that Raven took kicks entirely out of MP. (There is at least a cheat in SP that lets you do the flip kick)

 

Just to clarify: They did not take kicks out of MP. The saberstaff kick is still there, but it's different from the double-tap kick.

 

And I believe that's what it's going to be like if you add those as well - the person is not going to be flying across the level like in jk2, nor is he going to lie there for 3 seconds on the ground, nor is he going to lose a lot of hp. He's going to get up fast, roll away, and stay put in the place you kicked him.

[Vanor]

Originally posted by traj

You're right. I had a silly preconceived notion that FF/SO CTF games and FF Duels would have an outcome. I thought a winner and a loser would be decided. My bad.

 

Have you tried a FF/SO CTF or FF duel with the saber damage increased to 2, 3, 4, or 5?

 

So the problem in your opinion is, that in those game types, it's difficult to achive a goal, namely killing the other guy, because sabers don't do enough damage compaired to the ablity to heal or other factors.

 

There are cvars already in the game to increase the amount of damage that a saber can deal. There are also cvars that lower the speed that force mana regens.

 

Don't you think it's a bit silly to ask for changes to the base game, when it may be already possable to achive what you want by changing a single number in the server config?

[Doctor Shaft]

No, it's not silly, and here's why.

 

A standard.

 

Cvars will never solve the perceived problem, except for the small group of people that want to see the problem fixed.

 

Without a standard, that means that only a server with the cvars set for higher saber damage will a person find any comfort. Unfortunately, most people do not alter the game using cvars, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter, because some pepole would think that 3 is fine, while others think 2 is even better, and another vast majority thinks that the standard game should be played.

 

Without a standard, people who wish to be competitive, but have higher saber damage, can't really do it unless the entire competitive community agrees on a certain set of cvars. And, when they go around playing other people on standard servers, the game will be different.

 

People just want a standard. Premature patching or not, that's what peopl are looking for... a standard. The community will never agree on any standard settings, so we have to see what Raven will do.

[Ardent]

As you all seem to lack the decency to respond to my posts point-by-point, I've decided I'll just answer with a "Nope!" and tack on a few kickers that have nothing to do with the bulk of the posts (as this seems to be the best strategy to oppose me, I may as well use it myself).

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

I don't consider myself skilled enough to make the judgements you're talking about. Does that answer your question?

 

Yep, you're not qualified by your own admission. Now stop trying to say you're more qualified than we are. Over and over again. We're big boys, we can make our own decisions about what is an isn't premature.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

It's a pertinent point you make Baby, with one fatal flaw: The reason I don't want a premature patch is that suggestions made in the first week of the game's release will be at best, without serious foundation.

 

Then how can you have a "serious" foundation? I put "serious" in quotes because it's a hanging adjective. It's neither necessary nor expressive where it is. You sau that we can't possibly have a foundation to build our arguments on, SO HOW CAN YOU BUILD YOURS?

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

I empathise with your desire to get what you see as "flaws" fixed, Plazma. I do. And in a minimum of three months time, you'll see me on here complaining about imbalance with the best of them. Now is NOT the time though. The "flaws" will still be there in a few months, and me, you and the others will be able to see them for what they are more easily by that point. THEN we can discuss possible improvements.

 

Once again, in your infinite wisdom, you are telling us exactly when this patch should occur because obviously you know better despite having no "serious" foundation to stand on.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

Wiener, can you make ANY assertions in your posts without resorting to claims that: "I AM BETTAR THAN JOO AH AHAH!!!1"? You're a JA newbie as much as anyone. Remember that. Maybe YOU just haven't been playing the right people, people who are adapting to the game as it is

 

OH NOES NOT ADAPT0RING?!?!!!!!11111oneone Seriously dude, get a better tack. Go look at some of the ownage shots I've put up. I'm only mediocre as this group of guys goes, and I can utterly romp all over 99% of the community. That 99% includes you, because I can account for the 1% I can't romp on.

 

Posted by Spider AL

Others have no such respect. "stfu guns noob", "we r leet ctf0rz stfu", "u r smug and arrogant 4 disagreeing with us" etcetera. Many could learn.

 

Prior to this, I think everyone had conducted themselves professionally and without undue mockery of you and your "skills." This was, without a doubt, the turning point in the thread. gj troll, you trolled it up.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

Do be more of an adult. It's been proven time and time again that even though most people with my point of view haven't posted on these forums since making Raven fix the problems people like you created in 1.03, we exist. Your constant claims that you're in a total majority are as immature as your claims that I'm the only one who disagrees with the selfish desire that the game be instantly changed to match JO.

 

Wha wha wha? Frankly, most of the people who post here ARE in favor of changes. If "most" of the people who are in favor of your position are actually out there, go get them and tell them to post here. Seriously. Until then you're just spitting into the wind, if I may use a cliche in a manner similar to yourself.

 

Originally posted by Emon

Well, actually, they could patch technical issues now, such as the problems with dynamic glow on ATI cards.

 

A note: buy a nVIDIA card and save yourself the trouble. Sorry Emon, it had to be said.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL on 09-28-03

Don't say such foolish things. It's less than a week from release, you cannot POSSIBLY claim to know so much about JA that you have a license to tell Raven and everyone else who will ever play the game how you think the gameplay should evolve. Stow the arrogance, fish out the common sense. The things you think are irrepairable gameplay flaws today will fade into obscurity when the REALLY powerful moves become common online in about two months time.

 

Lost track of time stapled to our desk, have we? Why should we even listen to anything else you have to say if you can't get an obvious fact like how long the game has been out straight?

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

Three months after JO was released, we were inventing and discovering new sabre moves and tactics that made all earlier moves OBSOLETE!

 

Mmmhmmm. "We" being your clan, right? Well, your clan was about 2 months and 29 days behind the rest of us. Which is exactly where you seem to be with patching. Probably not a coincidence.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

Dyehead, you can already see that we're coming out of the woodwork...

 

How many was it by your last count? Hm? Thirteen? Yeah...you're exactly like the termites coming out of the woodwork...an acceptable loss to the ecosystem as far as natural selection is concerned. There were easily 20+ favoring the position Traj and I defend. But the difference is neither of us was counting after twenty.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

You've been discussing gameplay alterations and premature patching IN THIS, your OWN thread. So don't pretend it's not about gameplay alterations, and premature patching. And try to be more adult, please.

 

Yes, do try to be more adult, please. Speaking of which...I need to ask Dyehead to ask Kurgan to close this thread. Thanks for the reminder.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

The only people I call champions, are Tournament/Ladder champions. It's that simple.

 

You've met about 50% of the roster of both Team USA and Team Canada for the world ladder competition over the course of your seven-page diatribe against reality. We're not some geeks off the street. We're handy with the steel if you know what I mean.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

The first answer is of course: Wait a couple of months, and I'll tell you. The whole POINT of my position is that barely a week after release, any gameplay changes would produce UNPREDICTABLE effects, altering the natural tactical and gameplay evolution of the game.

 

Einstein's Theory of Relativity, when boiled down, points out that any change produces unpredictable effects because of the way every change ripples outward into the sum of reality. You're confining your thinking to a game, but it's still a fair analogy. By the same extension, NOT making a change produces unpredictable effects because of the way those ripples never moved outward. It's a lose-lose situation, but you go with the BEST outcome. The best outcome is adding a CVAR to the bug fix patch we all know is coming. Why? Because you'll still be playing, while we may just come back from Halo or HL2.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

The second answer relates to the call for kick: It will affect other gametypes too, since you people refuse to ask for it JUST to be ported into NG CTF. FFA, 1 on 1 gunning, FF Guns CTF, adding new things into these gametypes will produce again, unpredictable gameplay dynamic changes.

 

As I said, every change produces unpredictable effects. But there's a caveat here: since this change was originally removed (creating ripples of its own), replacing it would merely stabilize the existing gap. It would have exactly the same effect it had before: people would make mods with kicks disabled. Or in this case, turn off (or not turn on) kick with the cvar.

 

Originally posted by [D]Fugs

So you're a champion Spider. Because you don't see yourself fit to impartially comment on the game's balance until a few months have passed, then it's unacceptable to hear our opinions on the game so far?

 

[D]Fugs takes no prisoners. He gets straight to the heart of the matter and kicks the **** out of it. gf

 

Your brilliant response was, of course, inconclusive.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

That's about the long and the short of it. If I don't consider myself qualified to declare what needs to be "fixed" about gameplay so soon, why should I consider YOU qualified? The answer is, I don't.

 

We're back around to you not thinking you're qualified enough, but we completely missed where you destroyed the idea that we're qualified enough to declare what needs to be fixed. bf

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

I argue and patronise

 

You said it yourself.

 

[D]Fugs continues his ownage here:

 

Originally posted by [D]Fugs

You don't need to for us to have our say. It's called free speech.

 

Now, I don't know [D]Fugs personally, but I can already tell he's a stand up kinda fellow. A good fellow. You were trying to stifle our right to free speech while exercising your own. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y. Say it with me: hypocrisy.

 

Originally posted by [D]Fugs

Start talking as "..us Brits.." and you should expect someone to exercise their right to indicate other UK gamers are (very much) unlike you. Of course this you know. I don't want everyone to think before I even post, that I am an ignorant, opinionated, self important moron, much like yourself.

 

That's the way to kick a man while he's down. I bet [D]Fugs learned how to do that from JO, where you COULD kick a guy while he was down if you had enough skill. Once again, [D]Fugs takes the fight to you and you fire back with...*crickets chirping*

 

Originally posted by div3rse.jello

Your gay bold things are ridiculously stupid, people.

 

Stop it please before I die laughing.

 

gf

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Lowering saber damage scales across the board and having a higher rate of auto blocking made standard saber fighting worthless in any game mode outside of No Force saber only.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This is in fact, untrue. A single overhead red stance strike took gunners out, providing they didn't have huge amounts of shields at the time. Combined with sight, this helped me win a lot of points in guns CTF. People on low force rarely activate sight themselves, so my ambushes were that much more effective on repeater-wielding flagrunners too busy to look in dark secluded alcoves. Tee hee. A lot of people complained that sabres were useless in guns matches both before and after both patches. I never had a problem with it, and used it consistently throughout JO's lifetime.

 

Here we see early signs of ignoring half of the point of a responder's argument. gj AL, you effectively dodged a fact that's coming around to bite you in the ass

 

Originally posted by Ardent

He based it on "what it was like" rather than "what it is."

 

Obviously, this is great for fantasy fulfillment, but terribly bad for productivity. The plain fact of the matter is: there are problems NOW that need to be addressed VERY SOON. Not "in a while." Not just SP issues, either (and I can think of a few), but the issue with the single saber isn't something a couple of people have surmised. It is something dozens of people have OBSERVED.

 

Two words: thank you. Thank you, me, for so eloquently making the point I was so desperately grabbing at. Oh wait, nm.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

Actually one HAS to look at things with such a mentality, Unnamed. Premature gameplay patching is bad, so one must not prematurely patch gameplay.

 

As one of my art teachers was always wont to say: "Viewing the world as black and white disallows you to take in the entire perspective. This is why we work in colors." Yet aren't you the one espousing looking at the whole picture? OMG WHAT HYPOCRISY?!

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

You agreed with nearly all of my points about the negative effects of JO v.1.03 in your previous post. Frankly, I cannot understand how you can sit there, KNOW all this as I do, and still want to risk sweeping gameplay alterations that will not only affect the gametypes we've been discussing, but ALL gametypes.

 

UJ could do so because he played 1.04. He saw how Raven, as you admit yourself, fixed most of the problems they created with the 1.03 patch. That's a fact.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

Get your facts straight before you go around implying that people are hypocrites.

 

I keep my facts neatly organized in a Rolodex for quick and efficient access. It's pretty clear that you cannot say the same.

 

I don't see any need to continue from here, as it's pretty clear where things were going. As I said before, gf and gg. Now go get some practice and maybe next time you'll win.

[Vanor]

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Cvars will never solve the perceived problem, except for the small group of people that want to see the problem fixed.

How does that not solve the problem? If it's a small group of people, then why should the base game, or standard be changed to suit the minority?

 

Without a standard, people who wish to be competitive, but have higher saber damage, can't really do it unless the entire competitive community agrees on a certain set of cvars.

 

Then the competitive community should agree on a set of cvars. Why should the standard be based on what the competitive comunity wants? If they're competitive players, then they should be more comforable with tweaking things to their taste, rather then someone who has little OL experance, who just got the game.

 

And, when they go around playing other people on standard servers, the game will be different.

 

So? If they are aware of this, then they can plan for it accordingly.

 

People just want a standard.

There is a standard right now, it's how JA plays without any changes made. The problem isn't that there's no standard, the problem is the standard isn't what a group of people want it to be.

 

So they are asking that the standard be changed to suit their taste, as opposed to the taste of other people. If the game doesn't play like you want it to, to be comptitive, but there's a easy way to change it to suit, then it is silly to request that the standard be changed.

 

It's like someone turning on the raido, not liking the station that's currently on, and calling the station asking that they change the format. Rather then simply finding a different station they like.

 

edit: Not that it may matter much. But I really haven't formed an opinion about what the standard should be, or if the game is balanced corectly yet. I just don't think it should be changed to suit the tastes of a single group, at the expense of other groups.

 

On the other hand, based on how I read something Kurgan said... Raven feels that saber damage should be set to 2, so maybe setting that as the default, in the server confg, would solve many of the problems. That way those who like longer duels or less deadly sabers can change to suit taste, those who feel that 2 is still too low can change it to 3, and 2 can be the standard.

[FK | unnamed]

Originally posted by GreenSmoke

as to what ujama was talking about wrt the learning curve, i can tell you guys right away where tffa is going to end - who can use lightning/drain/energize in the most efficient combination. think about it and you should easily come to the same conclusion. the point we are making is not that ja is different from jo. the point we ARE making is that ja does not give the s/o ff player ANY viable and reliable offensive capability. this is not limited to ctf. or duel. it affects everything. a game where you can heal with impunity as long as you keep yourself on the winning side of force parity, and there is NO way to deal a continuous stream of damage in a reliable manner, is a game that depends not on technical skill, but purely in resource management and attrition.

 

all ff s/o players will remember clearly that there was a distinct separation in the methods of defense and offense in jo. while defense was pretty tedious, consisting mainly of a force management game, it could always be overridden by offense completely different in nature, by which i mean technical, skillful, and tactical. you could learn the main points of drain game in an hour. i don't think there's a single player in jo that can say that they developed the perfect offensive game. why? because it was infinitely difficult and thus, infinitely improveable. a common advice to new ff s/o players, which was given to me when i was still a "drain newbie": to be able to SURVIVE was easy, because all you needed to know was force management, but to be able to KILL was infinitely harder, because of the technical and exacting nature of a capable offense. but ja is different. the defense of force management is the same, and now, with all tactical offensive capability taken out, we can only turn to pure force management on both offense and defense.

 

the above refers to duel, but the same can be said for ctf, tffa, etc. in ctf, the defense was simple: run. the offense was of the same nature as duel: technical and tactical. in tffa, the defense was simple: drain and energize. the offense was almost identical to that of duel.

 

THIS is the problem, and it has not yet fully manifested itself, but it's clear, at least to me, that the symptoms complained of right NOW are not the what's important as much as what they tell of things to come:

 

1) competetive play MEANS that players and teams will use the tactics and strategy that maximize their win/loss ratio

2) as mentioned above, the overriding factor in this game (for ff s/o) is defense through maintanence of force parity

3) while not a problem in and of itself, as the case was similar in jo, this time we are given NO effective tactical means of overriding the defensive capabilities, as all the continuous damage attacks have been removed from the game

4) then, competetive players will have NO other reasonable choice but to use the most effective strategy - to utilize the most powerful factor in this game, force attrition, as their means of both defense AND attack

5) where does this leave the competetive community? obviously, there is going to be 1 winner and 1 loser in every game, but whereas in jo a player could override any defense of force parity by technical skill coupled with smart tactics, the only way to fight force management in ja is with better force management. note that i'm not talking about flailing saberists, but the competetive player, who is assumed to always aim for the most efficient way to win. honestly, you can strafe around all day and not get sabered once, while attacking with lightning/throw at no risk. this is what will happen.

6) take all of this together and the result is obvious: yes, all you people that say we can find new ways of winning, etc., you're right - but that new way of winning will NOT have the balance of strategic force management defense against technical skill and tactics for offense, but will be pure force management on both sides - the learning curve is nil, the gameplay is tedious, and NO competetive player wants to put time into a game in these conditions: THAT'S the complaint and if Raven ignores the competetive community for too long, it will lose that community for the remainder of ja, destroying the game's potential for longevity. i don't think there is a single player that will stick around this game for a year, or even more than a few months, if there is no hope for improvement beyond a certain low plateau.

 

 

Please read this guy's post ^

 

 

It sums up things quite well.

 

 

Again I'm going to point out why we are here and the problems we have in a nice, easy to read format:

 

 

FF/SO combat in all formats, duel, CTF etc. on a *competition level is horribly unbalanced.

 

 

Healing powers are much stronger than offensive capabilities.

 

 

Setting saber damage scales higher is *not the solution because the game play then just turns into one big messy "bump and kill" game where random flailing, as *opposed to well timed, precise strikes, is rewarded.

 

Serious players are all about taking the time to eliminate random, sloppy play styles they have when they first start out.

 

Setting a damage scale through the roof brings us back to the newbie stuff we try to avoid.

 

 

The Base game play in JA lacks depth.

 

 

Anything that can be done has been found.

 

And if there is one "uber combo" out there, can you people say you really want us to find it?

 

Becuase you know the second we do, we are going to use it and nothing else.

 

Kind of like the back stab from JO, you guys remember that right?

 

And then the kicks in 1.04.

 

You guys remember those right?

 

Of course you do, you people were the ones crying about them, not us.

 

Just look at the reason a lot of you don't want kicks back in:

 

"People will spam them"

 

It proves the point I just made about what happens when the players like us do find strong moves and combos.

 

Players like you people want them yanked right out and kept out.

 

 

The primary reason for this (lack of depth) is the base game play is identical to Jedi Outcast with the exception of a few tweaks to a few powers and moves.

 

 

The Force powers are the same and function the same.

 

 

The majority of the saber moves were directly ported over, and even in the new stances, 1/2 of the swings (secondary stance mode) are directly recycled medium/light swings from Jedi Outcast.

 

 

Granted, as I said there are a few minor tweaks, but it does not take 3 months to realize that specials cost 25 Force, and that grip now has a line of sight restriction.

 

 

It takes about 10 minutes to find the differences.

 

 

The second reason I say everything has been found is, quite frankly, people have played this game for much longer than two weeks.

 

And I'm not talking about the "Beta".

 

I will gladly upload a scan of my retail receipt for anyone who wishes to see it, but reality is several builds of this game, including the final build, were leaked and people played them long before two weeks ago.

 

I'm not saying this makes it right, but it does make it reality.

 

If I was incorrect in that statement, you would not have those sticky threads at the top of this forum.

 

Also the FF/SO competitive community is and was the largest aspect of the overall Jedi Outcast competitive community.

 

We had more players on ladders and more leagues than any other game type.

 

Our ladders lasted longer than any other game type simply because our player base was larger and up until the games very end, we, as a whole remained active.

 

The NF duel ladders, the Full Force Full Weapon CTF ladders, they all dried up and died months and months before the FF/SO ladders and leagues even began to slow down.

 

If anything, as far as competitive play goes, the rest of the competitive community as a whole is largely the minority when compared to us.

 

We are also pressing the issue of game play balances on a *competitive level because we are seeing (as traj stated) more and more of our numbers saying "screw it" and move on to other games like Halo.

 

People are simply not going to wait 3 months when you have things like Halo, UT2004 and HL2 all coming down the pipe in those 3 months.

 

And all we ask is cvars.

 

You get your game play how you like it, we get ours the way we like it.

 

 

That very notion, one where the player gets to decide what type of game he wants to play, is why Jedi Outcast was so well received.

 

People liked the saber, they played saber only.

 

People wanted guns, they could play guns.

 

Options make customers happy.

 

 

Telling them "live with it" when a product is horribly lacking in depth, makes them say "screw it, this garbage is not worth my time".

[Vanor]

First you say...

 

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

Setting saber damage scales higher is *not the solution because the game play then just turns into one big messy "bump and kill" game where random flailing, as *opposed to well timed, precise strikes, is rewarded.

Then you say...

 

And all we ask is cvars.

 

You get your game play how you like it, we get ours the way we like it.[/QUOtE]

 

So which is it? There's a cvar to change saber damage, so you can play how you like it, and others can play how they want it. But you also say that setting saber damage scales is not acceptable.

 

So which is it?

[traj]

Take a deep breath Al, you're getting all worked up over our discussion. Maybe some yoga, or a nap could relax you.

 

Do you actually READ any of the posts I make, or do you just quote them and try to pounce on them? "Sky is green?" Must have been a joke.

 

I guess I'll have to say it again. Please don't make me repeat it Al.

You belive that we MUST wait a certain amount of time before we call for a patch. You believe it to be premature, and you believe that it would fragment the community drastically.

 

I understand completely. I disagree however.

 

I believe that Raven rushed out a game that has at least two modes resulting in stalemates when played on a competitive level. I believe that if we don't fix these modes that JA will lose a portion of the community. I believe that if we make togglable cvars, the community will hardly fragment anymore than it already is. I believe that the choice is either lose this portion of the community, or give them a place to play. I don't believe that cvars will have the vastly overwhelming destructive impact that you do. This is my opinion and you have yours.

 

I believe that you come across as smug sometimes. Maybe it's my problem, in the way I interpret it, but I know I am not alone.

 

I believe that you accuse people of flaming, and then call them a troll in the same breath. I believe that calling someone a troll is a flame if they are indeed not a troll, as I am not.

 

I don't believe you are "HITLOR".

 

I believe that neither one of us has a crystal ball, and so neither one of us can predict what will happen if JA is given these cvars. Neither of us can prove what will happen, as neither one of us have a time machine. Only time will tell. There is no right or wrong. Only opinions. I believe your opinion is as valid as mine is. You see it as who is wrong or right.

 

My stance should be pretty clear by now. I am trying to save a portion of the community, while possibly risking further fragmentation of an already fragmented community. We will either leave, or have a place to play. No one else has to play there, and anyone you might lose from your side of the community was never on your side of the community to begin with.

 

I have valid opinions as do you Al. Anything that I have said that you may have taken personally are the results of something you may have said. It's pointless to argue the "he started it" point anyways. You always believe you're right, and I don't believe that you always are.

 

2 opinions. Thats what we have here. Not a war. Relax. Smile and have a good day.

[FK | unnamed]

Originally posted by Vanor

First you say...

 

 

Then you say...

 

 

 

So which is it? There's a cvar to change saber damage, so you can play how you like it, and others can play how they want it. But you also say that setting saber damage scales is not acceptable.

 

So which is it?

 

/sigh

 

pay attention...

 

 

there is more than one aspect to full force saber only combat than swinging a saber.

 

If all we did was swing a saber, we would play No Force.

 

 

 

force based attacks and force based combos play en equal part in that game type with sabers.

 

 

saying "just jack the saber damage up all the way" but ignoring the rest of the things that are specific to that game type is like telling a duel player to "Just go play guns" when he brings up balance issues with sabers.

 

 

The cvars we need in case you did not pay attention, all relate and revolve around force based combat.

 

Kicks, the grip LOS nerf.

 

Even the 25 force cost for specials nerf has more to do with force management than it does with sabers.

 

saber damage scales will *help a little, but it is not a "fix it all in one shot" solution like many of you think it is.

 

When a game type is based on 50% saber skill and 50% force skill, it only fixes 50% of the problem.

[Vanor]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

saying "just jack the saber damage up all the way" but ignoring the rest of the things that are specific to that game type is like telling a duel player to "Just go play guns" when he brings up balance issues with sabers.

I'd agree with that, but I never said to jack the saber damage all the way up. I said to increase it to the point where you achive gameplay that suits your taste.

 

All anyone has said recently, was that winning a duel is hard to impossible, due to healing and other factors. I addressed the damage, and mentioned the ablity to change how fast mana regens.

 

The cvars we need in case you did not pay attention, all relate and revolve around force based combat.

 

Kicks, the grip LOS nerf.

 

Even the 25 force cost for specials nerf has more to do with force management than it does with sabers.

 

I have no problem with putting kicks back in. If it devides the comunity in two, so be it. I'd rather see 2 or even 10 groups playing JA, then 1 small group.

 

The grip and force cost, are design decisions and frankly make it sound like you want things to work like they did, rather then playing with how they do. So you can't grip someone you can't see, and it takes force power to do a special. I'd think comptitive players would be for these changes, as they both add more depth to the combat system as a whole.

 

Now to use grip you have to be in the right place, and can't grip someone you can't even see.

 

The force cost, forces people to think about when they can use a special and when they can't. It forces them to keep better track of their mana and make a choice on when or if to use a force power or special. Again that adds depth, which you seem to want.

 

Unless you can explane how those two things remove depth, rather then add them. If you can I'd like to hear the reason and debate them, if you don't convence me. But to me, these make it require more skill to win, not less.

 

saber damage scales will *help a little, but it is not a "fix it all in one shot" solution like many of you think it is.

 

I never said it was a magic bullet. I asked if it's been tried yet.

 

When a game type is based on 50% saber skill and 50% force skill, it only fixes 50% of the problem.

 

But as you've pointed out so many times. The force part of the game hasn't changed, same force powers, ect... So how exactly is the force part different in JA vs JO.

 

You say you can heal faster then take damage, which means the damage done is too low. So up the damage a bit, and it balances out.