razorace Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage And Ghoul2 is already turned off, or at least toned down considerably, for MP. There have been quite a few threads already that discuss this. Also, if you didn't have me on ignore you would've seen it a few posts up. What do you mean? I've done some on and offline testing and the ghoul2 setup is now far suprior to JK2 as far as I can tell. The damage levels are weird but the actual impacts are happening about 99% of the time. If you want to fix the 1%, try using "sv_fps 60"...more details seen in the link I provided above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Let me ask you this, is their a way to "wire frame" the hit boxes/zones? In other games you could do a devmap, enable a debug cvar for hit detection and actually see the visible hit zones on a player model. The reason I ask is I am really curious how the "visible skinned player model" works in regards to the "invisible hit box skeleton". Granted I am using generic terms but I think you get the idea. That day Myth and I were goofing around when I was testing the DFA damage rates I noticed something odd. When I would connect head on with his player model (who was afk and had a chat box up the whole time) my saber would visibly enter him at head level but the damage, both visibly and audibly, would not start to register until it had passed down to about his chest level. Neither of us had a ping over 50 nor were our systems experiencing any user end lag such as video card or CPU slow down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 And their saber was of course down (off) too right? There are several commands you could try messing with, I just don't have time at the moment to look them up (but I will late tonight if nobody has posted with it by then). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot Hmmm? Maybe you could say something useful instead of making troll comments... You told us to leave. That was dumb AND useless. I call em like I see em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed Let me ask you this, is their a way to "wire frame" the hit boxes/zones? In other games you could do a devmap, enable a debug cvar for hit detection and actually see the visible hit zones on a player model. Not as far as I know. For JK2, the hitbox was a combination of kyle's bounding box (for blasters) and the lowest LOD model of Kyle for saber body hits detection. I imagine it's very similar to the system in JKA. The reason I ask is I am really curious how the "visible skinned player model" works in regards to the "invisible hit box skeleton". Granted I am using generic terms but I think you get the idea. That day Myth and I were goofing around when I was testing the DFA damage rates I noticed something odd. When I would connect head on with his player model (who was afk and had a chat box up the whole time) my saber would visibly enter him at head level but the damage, both visibly and audibly, would not start to register until it had passed down to about his chest level. Due to the way the system works, the saber hit detection is scanned at a constant frame rate (normally 20 fps). It means that the saber can have "passthru" when the saber is travelling much faster than the frame rate. Imagine blinking 20 times a sec. If you miss a hit in one of the blinks, the saber will not register the hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 And yes, it would be nice if people would lay off the troll posts (ie: personal attacks, flame bait, etc). Lets work on finding out how the cvars work and defining what we think the "problems" really are (and emailing them to Raven) rather than, as was pointed out saying "are we there yet" (I like that analogy, it seems to fit) or saying how such and such a group of fans is stupid and unworthy and their opinion doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I listen to everyone's ideas. I do not like it however when we are in here trying to discuss things and some nub tells us to leave and calls us whiners. That's not a worthwhile idea. He should be shot, end of story. Back to topic. I can't speak for everyone, but I am staying here to make sure that RAVEN doesn't think I've gone away and fallen in love with their game. I haven't. And as long as the topic is still discussed I'll be right here. FF/SO CTF and FF Duel need help, I paid $54 like everyone else, and I'll leave when I've decided that RAVEN doesn't really give a **** about anything I have to say. Release the SDK please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by traj Release the SDK please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I listen to everyone's ideas. I do not like it however when we are in here trying to discuss things and some nub tells us to leave and calls us whiners. That's not a worthwhile idea. He should be shot, end of story. Back to topic. Just so you know, that's not how we do things here. We don't flame people for their opinions ("nub" or not), not on purpose anyway. There is no reason to respond in kind to insults, not when you have moderators around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kataarn Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 If the sabre hit detection fps is so low....why don't we just try cranking it up a notch? Would probably solve a lot of problems. Besides, there's no reason to have it so low...the game is hardly playable at that FPS anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 If the sabre hit detection fps is so low....why don't we just try cranking it up a notch? Would probably solve a lot of problems. Besides, there's no reason to have it so low...the game is hardly playable at that FPS anyway. That's what I've been trying to say! ARGH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 The thing you guys need to take into account are how most corporate servers are run. Several servers per box is the usual standard, so if cranking it up eats up even more resources (which it will) you have to keep in mind that the particular box that server is running on may have more than one JA server *in addition to other game servers running off it. The slow down (due to the now higher resource pull) that may result from this would be just as big of a problem as the hit detection is. I'm not saying this theory about the sv_fps is not vaild, but I do believe it goes much deeper than the sv_fps being set a little low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 The slow down is minor at best. From my testing, my system (in JK2 and JKA) can handle double/triple the default sv_fps with a little to small decrease in game speed. We need more testing to determine if the internet games can handle the change. It seems to work fine on a local game. That's why I'm pushing this so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoJiTa Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Increasing sv_fps is not an option for any machine running multiple game servers, which will be most of the jka game servers currently up. Most servers use sv_fps 20-30 which should be enough really, the problem is obviously deeper than sv_fps values. Also this change relies on the client adjusting their snaps value, else the increased server-side change has no real effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 have you tested other hit scans beyond the saber? More to the point, grip. I know in theory it functions with the dynamic crosshair and when it scans over a hit zone on the model it can be activated. But I just now stood in front of a AFK guy for close to 12 seconds trying to get my grip to activate. Force pool was full, I was at point blank range, ping was around 20 for me and 50 for him, he was not moving at all (AFK) and I just could not get grip to "lock" on until I just spazzed on my mouse and shook it all to hell. I was doing slow "sweeps" across the model and around it to see if maybe I could pin point the "hit zone" but I just got nothing. This is why I'm not sure about the "speed" of the saber and the conflict with a fps rate being the entire issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jello123 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan We don't flame people for their opinions ("nub" or not), not on purpose anyway. There is no reason to respond in kind to insults, not when you have moderators around. Read any of Al's posts lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by vert1go Increasing sv_fps is not an option for any machine running multiple game servers, which will be most of the jka game servers currently up. Most servers use sv_fps 20-30 which should be enough really, the problem is obviously deeper than sv_fps values. Also this change relies on the client adjusting their snaps value, else the increased server-side change has no real effect. It should make a difference on the saber hit detection. I've studied the saber code (for JK2) in depth. It only traces where the saber currently is and the mid point between the current and last frame's position. This means that sabers can and will do passthru if the saber is travelling thru objects too quickly or thru small targets. This seems to be occurring, so we gotta boost the sv_fps. There are better solutions to the actual saber hit detection, but there's nothing we can do without the engine source code. Unfortunately, the amount of work for the ideal solution (probably by creating a new data loop just for the sabers) would require more work than Raven would be willing to do for a patch. And yes, the saber system issues are deeper than just the hit detection. But this is the best we can do without more doing major gameplay changes to the saber system. I don't think the snap values will have to be changed since the additional information doesn't need to be sent to the client (damage calculation). The rest of the additional data transmitted isn't really needed and can be filtered out by the snap control code. I was doing slow "sweeps" across the model and around it to see if maybe I could pin point the "hit zone" but I just got nothing. This is why I'm not sure about the "speed" of the saber and the conflict with a fps rate being the entire issue. I honestly don't know how the grip system operates so I don't if changing the sv_fps would matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kataarn Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Well someone should try running a home server sometime, and see if changing the sabre fps helps, hurts, or whatever. Like, do a study! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Well, it seems to work when you run it in local mode. Both me and Emon have tried it. However, neither of us have the bandwidth to properly test it on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by boinga1: Al, that's the longest post I've ever seen. I don't know if that's a compliment or an insult, but it's true. Ehh it's only about 10k minus quotes at a rough guess. I wrote a 30k post once. Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]: and Al, your opinion of 103 sucking only corresponds to you You can ask some people that actually PLAYED it and they'll say they loved it. I presume you're implying that I didn't play 1.03... Once again that's unsubstantiated nonsense, of course I did, and I've said that before, but you haven't been reading my posts apparently, despite insulting them at regular intervals. One of my NF tournament victories was during 1.03's reign aamof. Most people will remember that 1.03 nerfed the dark side, nerfed the guns, ruined guns CTF because of that, created a "one-useful-sabre-move" scenario and generally shrunk the game into a small and ignominious lump. That's why it was bad, and most Guns CTFers, Guns FFAers, Guns duellists and a sizeable proportion of sabres and Force FFAers and duellists would agree with that. Backstab didn't really affect NF duelling as badly as it did FF duelling, because of the obvious pull/backstab portion of the equation. So yeah, I feel justified in calling it bad. Perhaps you liked it. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. Originally posted by Rad Blackrose: 1.03 was far from ****. The only reason people specifically mention why 1.03 was "horrible" was due to the pull bug and the damage/pivot of backstab. No Rad, that's really not the only reason why people specifically mention 1.03. 1.03 nerfed the Dark side and Heal on the Light side, It nerfed the guns game, it nerfed the sabres (but left several buggy moves and one imbalanced move in the mix) and it was to be honest, generally bad. Those are just some of the reasons why it was a BAD THING. And it was as crap as it was, because it was a prematurely pandering patch. Originally posted by g//plaZma: What would the main point be? That you guys don't want to change gameplay and therefore, the majority of the community likes the gameplay as it is even though Raven didn't have a public player-tested beta and it obviously has some flaws? If you honestly think that's what we're saying, you really haven't been paying attention. We've never claimed that the current gameplay is good or bad. We've never claimed that "people" like it or not. The only thing I'VE said, and I'm sure the others will agree with this, is that: Prematurely patching the game implies a lack of understanding about the ecosystem that is the gameplay dynamic accross all gametypes. You play NG CTF, and you don't care what could happen to other gametypes in the melee of nerfs and changes that is a premature patch. That's fine. But don't expect those of us who have seen the negative effects of premature patching in the past to go along with your self-interested demands. NO premature gameplay patching, Raven! Wait for a month or two! Originally posted by g//plaZma: This is just 103 again. It's unavoidable unless you do something FAST. If Raven's gonna sit around for 3-4 months and let people get USED to JA before they release a patch, you're gonna have people named Spider Bal saying that JA "blah blah version" is crap because it's hella DIFFERENT from they've been playing. Hell if I actually was into JA I'd probably complain too. Why not release a patch changing gameplay during the first few weeks of the game, allowing easier adaptation? Well it's a valid question, here's one answer: Because the sooner you try to tinker with gameplay the less you understand about what you're tinkering with. Most rushed-out patches cause many unforseen imbalances, side effects and general mayhem in the games they're made for. The history supports this. The history does NOT support the idea that "It'll be okay this time". Well nobody hopes more than me that a patch will improve the game, and not ruin it. But I'd rather there was no patch than risk mucking up ALL the gametypes in an attempt to improve yours. I know YOU'RE willing to risk it, but that's selfish, isn't it. Originally posted by g//plaZma: Dea, if they knew what to fix, they wouldn't have brought bugs from JO into JA in the first place. That's such nonsense. You try making a game without making errors. ALL newly released games contain errors, that doesn't mean they should be patched on the advice of the most vocal portions of the community the instant they're released. Originally posted by FK | unnamed: Look, honestly I don't WANT Raven to ever, EVER touch this game again in regards to game play. Unnamed obviously now realises that the risks of fiddling with gameplay outweigh the possible benefits. I'm of the same opinion, though I believe that patches nerf more the closer to initial-release-date they're made. The history of various games, UT, CS, JO itself and Tribes, supports this belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I'm going to have to disagree. Gameplay patches can and do work. For example, the starfall ability in WC3 was simply too powerful at initial release. Blizzard patched it and things worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Spider AL Unnamed obviously now realises that the risks of fiddling with gameplay outweigh the possible benefits. I'm of the same opinion, though I believe that patches nerf more the closer to initial-release-date they're made. The history of various games, UT, CS, JO itself and Tribes, supports this belief. more along the lines of he doesn't want LA's incompetence to touch the game again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Raven has already said they're making gameplay fixes. They're very open about that. Which is exactly why posting a diatribe about it is no longer necessary. Whether or not we'll get our cvars is still up in the air (everyone I've been e-mailing has been very evasive since it's obviously a touchy a subject), but they are already making map corrections (which is a huge turnaround in their old attitude about map fixes). These are gameplay fixes. Will they be in the first patch? I suspect the map updates will be, but a lot of the other gameplay issues could take some more work to unravel. The issues with ghoul2, for instance, can't be a matter of changing a line here or there. I hope they've started working on it, but they're pretty evasive about most of those things. The end. There's no argument here. There's no rebuttal. Those are the facts. Gameplay fixes are coming, and if you don't like them, you can skip the patch(es). Just like before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent Those are the facts. Gameplay fixes are coming, and if you don't like them, you can skip the patch(es). Just like before. Do you have a link or something so I can have a look? So far the only things I have seen Raven mention are bug issues (like the server browser, for example). I haven't seen anything about gameplay changes, and I just want to see for myself. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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