Solo Saber Nerfed Thread

[Kurgan]

I actually hope there is a patch, but NOT one that changes gameplay. I think it's perfectly fine the way it is.

 

It's Raven's call, but if you ask me, add options and fix bugs and increase stability, DON'T nerf this or change how that works just to pacify some percieved "imbalance" by a few loud fans.

 

Some people are still treating JA like "JK2 1.05" and they're mad because it's not exactly the same as they remember Jedi Outcast. This is the wrong approach. This is a NEW GAME. Changing it back into JK2 is completely nonsensical and counterproductive. Why not just go back to playing JK2 and its thousands of mods if JA pisses you off so much?

 

Whether we like to admit it or not though, the LFN community is still not the majority of players.

 

Raven is smart enough to distinguish between 20 people yelling to change this or that in this forum and the rest of the gaming populance who doesn't even care or who wants just the opposite.

 

I'd much rather see the ship vehicle code polished up, improved bot support (and bot support for Siege) added, rather than nerfing this or that move, etc.

 

Adding kicks to g_debugmelee 1 is fine by me, it won't change a thing as far as I'm concerned, but it also isn't really needed IMHO either, not for the vast majority of players.

 

I haven't seen 1 single Sabers Only Full Force CTF server since I've gotten the game. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but maybe it's an indication that Raven won't consider it a high priority when they start working on that patch (and remember they can only release a patch if LA decides to let them).

[BloodRiot]

Once again I say: I've been in a powerduel server and i've been sucessfull in stayuing in the top 3 ranking players of that server (remember that powerduel you have to beat both opponenets to score 1 point... killing one doesnt count) and they came at me with all 3 types... I had a good success rate. Personally... I dont think there's anythin wrong with JA's sabers.

[AxVegetA]

Kurgan i agreed with almost everything you said but this.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

Adding kicks to g_debugmelee 1 is fine by me, it won't change a thing as far as I'm concerned, but it also isn't really needed IMHO either, not for the vast majority of players.

 

If they add kicks, should be the staff kicks and not the JO kicks or both.

Because staff kicks are more real and allows more playability in close combats.

[VanishingVision]

[Disclaimer: {puts flame retardant suit on} this is just my opinion, and that’s all it is. I am posting what I have had experience in the past few weeks. If I, quote, “Fail to mention” some variable that may coincide with my topic, it is probably due to the fact that I have not experienced that aspect, or I am not well versed enough in it to make a fair review/overview. Thank you.]

 

OK here’s my personal stance on the matter,

 

The single saber has the most versatility of the three saber types.

 

Example:

 

(Not bragging) I was playing on a few servers last night, and easily defeated the staff and duel spamers, I fought a few guys that knew how to use the staff and duals correctly and they were great fun... but I still won... 20 times in a row, and won all four games in a row.

 

The thing that deters people from the single saber, more specifically the red style is that

 

1. It's slow

2. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable

3. Its damage ratio is weaker than the staff & Duals

 

I couldn't believe that after landing a perfect DFA (I tested with a friend) I only did 20 to 30 damage, but my friend just spun around in front of me and just grazed me for 35 damage... I mean c’mon!

 

But back to the point… the single... more specifically the red stance has three points to it that make it incredibly powerful

 

1. It is highly time able, and precise

2.It breaks defenses and can knock the opponents saber out of their hand

3. It can have several sub styles

 

Example:

 

I have created a system of fighting in game with the red style that can do 70 to 100 damage per hit, and shield myself at the same time if I time it just right... without katas... just plain moves...

 

So all in all the single saber has a high learners curve and allows for a more strategic… open ended style(s) versus the other two styles... (Not that they don’t have strategic possibilities but they only have one style a piece, not counting the very limited single blade alternate form)

 

Now… on to the subject of patching!

 

I do believe a patch is needed to correct some serious and minor bugs in the system, I do not believe it should be released in the next week or two, but should be held off for at least one month, so that other bugs can be surfaced and such. Any longer, and people will leave the game due to its “Broken combat”, if its released earlier people will leave the game due to its “Nerfed combat”. It’s all about equilibrium! I do think after the first patch they should patch again the following month or two. I do believe there needs to be a modification… not nerf to all five styles. I will post my list of changes later but I I have a class to get to! lol

 

Cheers,

-VanishingVision

[Spider AL]

Now you state you were a "champion" JO player, but I have to ask what you define as a champion?

The only people I call champions, are Tournament/Ladder champions. It's that simple.

 

Al because you got 897809709798798709709780978009098 kills on a kill tracker quite frankly, means jack **** in the world of competitive play.

Ohh and here's me thinking that this debate was all about who had the experience necessary to decide what gameplay changes should be made. Well the fact that I got "897809709798798709709780978009098" kills on my kill tracker shows very well that I have more playtime than most people. My victory record and championship status show that I put that extensive experience to good use, and understood the game very well.

 

It’s not about how many people you beat Al, it’s about who you beat.

Oh I beat some of the best players in my locale, make no mistake. Now in JK1... I beat great players all over the world. Made some sizeable cash, too.

 

Got anything else to throw, Unnamed? Thought not.

 

Now that you've finished trying to and failing to undermine the fact that I'm one of the few people that can be legitimately classified as a pro-gamer that the JK series has produced, let's get back to the facts:

 

You believe yourself to be in posession of a god-given right to decide where the game goes from here, less than a month after release. I, heh, I disagree.

 

Will damage the game how?

A fine question, I'll try to humour you and be as specific as possible, without submitting to your form-letter for my reply.

 

The first answer is of course: Wait a couple of months, and I'll tell you. The whole POINT of my position is that barely a week after release, any gameplay changes would produce UNPREDICTABLE effects, altering the natural tactical and gameplay evolution of the game.

 

The second answer relates to the call for kick: It will affect other gametypes too, since you people refuse to ask for it JUST to be ported into NG CTF. FFA, 1 on 1 gunning, FF Guns CTF, adding new things into these gametypes will produce again, unpredictable gameplay dynamic changes.

 

To explain what I mean by unpredictable dynamic changes, we'll look at 1.03. So many little oversights because the patch was rushed out at the behest of people like you... So many little maneuvers that shrunk the game into a smaller, more tedious bundle. It only takes a tiny, tiny oversight on your part or on Raven's part to create HUGE repercussions, and moves and more importantly TACTICS that become dominant overnight. To me, the changes made in 1.03 were on the whole, negative. There were some interesting ideas, but the bad outweighed the good by a LONG chalk. Gameplay changes are NOT WORTH THE RISK. NOT this soon.

 

On a purely personal level, I've tried NG CTF since these threads started, and I can see what you're trying to say about the mode. But no matter how sympathetic I am to your plight, nor how justified I think your request is, it doesn't matter. I wouldn't ask Raven to patch my OWN ideas into the game so soon, let alone other people's.

 

***

 

Oh Dyeheeeead... eight of us in this thread alone now... and:

 

We say no to premature patching, Raven!

[[D]Fugs]

So you're a champion Spider. Because you don't see yourself fit to impartially comment on the game's balance until a few months have passed, then it's unacceptable to hear our opinions on the game so far?

 

This game needs a patch, and I'd rather have Raven clean up the few things they know about sooner, and progress with more refined balancing in the future. They can only know some of these things if told by us.

 

We know you don't want a premature patch, but this shouldn't mean that you dumb-down everyone's post who tries to make a suggestion about the game that you do not agree with. Some are very good, but end up buried in closed threads in which you argue the toss with all and sundry, using most of the page to patronise people.

 

You will probably disect this like many others, but don't forget your premature patch tag-line. After all it's the basis of your argument to EVERYTHING on this board, and we wouldn't want LucasArts to forget it, would we?

 

As far as altering saber damage: I think we should clean up the hit detection first - then we can truely know how effective each move/style is.

 

[D]Fugs: Waiting for v1.01 please!

 

(Which Raven already know 'cos I made some suggestions on their boards. )

[Prime]

I have to agree with Al on the patching issue. Certainly there will be imbalances in every game, but also it is unlikely that every effective strategy and counter has been discovered yet. This is especially true with JA, because many people are trying their damnedest to use their strategies from JO without trying to find what works in JA. It would be very difficult for Raven to make an excellent patch it this point because even they don't know all the creative strategies that players are going to come up with over time.

 

Ultimately, I just don't want to see JA end up like JO. Each patch tried to compensate for decisions made in the previous version, and in doing so created other problems. 1.03 did not make the game universally better than 1.02, although there were improvements in some areas. 1.04 is generally viewed as better than 1.03, but even that nerfed a few things and made other areas worse.

 

The point is that a patch is not some magical solution that is going to solve every problem. Simply turning on kicks may solve one set of problems, but it is equally likely that it will create a whole new set of issues. Right now JA rules are such that it assumes that flipkicks are not present. As such weapons and moves are set up to more or less balance themselves out. Throwing in kicks (as one example) means that now you have a whole bunch of rules that weren't designed to take flipkicks into account. Who knows all the imbalances that this might lead to.

 

At least waiting for a while before patching will give more strategies time to develop, and thus give Raven a better idea of all the things they will have to consider. The fear is that releasing a patch too soon will not take everything into account because everything might not be known yet. Then we will be right back to where we were with JO, needing yet another patch to make up for problems created with the previous patch.

 

I'm not saying I ma against patching forever and always, but I do think it is too early to really know what all the issues are.

[Prime]

Originally posted by [D]Fugs

This game needs a patch, and I'd rather have Raven clean up the few things they know about sooner, and progress with more refined balancing in the future.

This is exactly what led to the patch issues in JO. Surely everyone can agree that the path that JO took was not ideal?

[Spider AL]

So you're a champion Spider. Because you don't see yourself fit to impartially comment on the game's balance until a few months have passed, then it's unacceptable to hear our opinions on the game so far?

That's about the long and the short of it. If I don't consider myself qualified to declare what needs to be "fixed" about gameplay so soon, why should I consider YOU qualified? The answer is, I don't. Since I don't, it's my duty to make sure Raven hears both sides of the argument, thusly:

 

We don't want a premature patch, Raven! Remember JO v1.03!

 

This game needs a patch,

It doesn't "need" anything. It could use some bugfixes, but gameplay changes a week after release? I think not, somehow.

 

threads in which you argue the toss with all and sundry, using most of the page to patronise people

I argue and patronise? No I don't. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but it's important that people remember: It's the opinion of [D]Fugs, who flames people in nasty private messages, and entitles those messages "flame". I kid you not.

[[D]Fugs]

Originally posted by Spider AL

why should I consider YOU qualified?

You don't need to for us to have our say. It's called free speech.

 

It could use some bugfixes,

Exactly.

 

I argue and patronise? No I don't.

LoL

 

[D]Fugs, who flames people in nasty private messages, and entitles those messages "flame". I kid you not.

 

Mate,

I'll reply here as the thread's closed,

Start talking as "..us Brits.." and you should expect someone to exercise their right to indicate other UK gamers are (very much) unlike you. Of course this you know. I don't want everyone to think before I even post, that I am an ignorant, opinionated, self important moron, much like yourself.

The observations I made about you all had reason, I will not list them as I do not have the time or patience, and as I wrote before, your immature, incessant crap had already become tiresome.

I can see you're having fun winding up children because they don't like their new video game, just try not to make the UK game players look like complete biggots please.

 

[D]Fugs

 

This is the PM. I should never have bothered. I apologise. I should not have classed all the people arguing with you on these boards as children, as they blatantly are not. I would have replied on the thread, as you basically made assumptions about me, and called my points worthless, but it was closed. Wonder why. I do not flame for the sake of it, and this argument has already gone too far. I'll keep making suggestions about this game, but on Ravenforums.

[dyehead]

Raven, WE, the Majority of JA players who visit the LucasArts forums, think there are balance issues with the sabers! Please look into this when you fix the server issues!

 

You don't get it, do you Al. I figured someone of your omnipotence would have read my post earlier saying that servers are not showing up on the master list. I bet there are plenty of NG FF S/O CTF servers out there (Including mine) That go on and off of the server list. I haven't seen my server on the list for almost a week, because of whatever bug Raven has. (and YES, I PAID for my copy of JA.)

 

OBVIOUSLY, Raven is going to put out a fix for that. There have been countless people IN THESE FORUMS that have pointed out the flaws with the current saber system.

 

Some of them say, 'Oh well, yeah it's flawed but I still kill people,' and that's great. They are still admitting that the saber system is flawed, which is the bone that I'm picking here.

 

I wanted to see if others agreed with me regarding saber damage/balance. I don't think there have been any people who have disagreed with my statements of what I've noticed re: making contact with another person, damage dealth, hi force cost moves being very easy to avoid, certain moves being useless, (Red and Yellow DFA's due to either not hitting, or super low damage) and the fact that the dual sabers and light staff have become what people call "a noob stick" allowing them to spam attack and kill others very easily, no skill involved. (Not saying that it doesn't take skill to use those, but someone with the same level of skill as a single saberist using the dual sabers or light staff would win most of the time just due to damage dealt/blocking issues)

 

So, Raven needs this information. Does that mean that they will patch right away? No. Does that mean that when Raven patches that they will look at this thread for information? I sure hope so.

[Luke skyflasher]

Al we were both here since the start (1.02) lets really look at the difference between now and 1.03 since you bring a comparison to the two so often:

 

The push/pull system was just as broke in 1.02 as it was in 1.03.

 

The back stab did just as much damage in 02 as it did in 03.

 

So those were not "specific" to the 1.03 patch, let's make sure everyone is clear on that before I start.

 

 

 

1.03 F-ups:

 

 

-Lowering saber damage scales across the board and having a higher rate of auto blocking made standard saber fighting worthless in any game mode outside of No Force saber only. Even in other saber only modes it was worthless if powers like drain were present due to the low damage scales.

 

-Lowering ammo rates for one (or was it two?) often used guns in CTF (repeater?)

 

 

Problems due to this patch:

 

-Swinging a saber was now a waste of time, so players went searching for anything that would get them kills.

 

The majority caught on that JO had a broken push/pull system and the BS was an instant kill and hence "ass fighting" was born.

 

 

here comes 1.04

 

-Sabers are still weak as hell, but now made even weaker because the BS is nerfed to the point of being almost useless.

 

-Again, players have even more of the game taken away so they go searching for the one thing left that can bring them kills.

 

And hence, kick whores are born.

 

 

 

 

 

Now fast forward a year...

 

 

Jedi Academy is released

 

-Players still have the same exact weak as hell sabers (in saber only mode).

 

-Players now have the "last possible thing we found to get around the weak saber problem" (kicks) removed.

 

-Players in addition to the weak sabers, now have to deplete their force pool to do specials, but to make it even worse, those specials only do about 1/3 the damage they did before. So the player is now hit with two reasons for not even wasting his time to use them.

 

-Players have the one "expandable and customizable" force power, grip made totally useless with a line of sight penalty.

 

-Players yet again, go searching for anything that will bring them kills against skilled opponents after all these new nerfs but since it’s the same force system and the majority of the saber system is recycled… the hit a brick wall named “20 minute stalemate”.

 

 

Now all of this would not be an issue if a slew of new content to learn was added, but it simply was not.

 

 

*No new force powers.

 

*Only a handful of new saber swings for the two new stances, and even then the secondary mode of each "new" stance is the same as the single saber stances from the last game.

 

Not to mention the saber is still very weak in any stance, new or old.

 

 

*Each "style" got a Kata/roll + stab but neither are seriously effective/destructive and unless you are on a server with a 0 force regen rate, the force penalty for using them makes it not worth using.

 

 

 

 

 

That is it.

 

Everything else, be it Force powers, single sabers, it's all recycled from Outcast.

 

And as far as those go ^, we had over a year experience working with them, trust us, if there was anything left "to find" it would have been found by now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously though, do you not see now why we are a little disgruntled with this release?

 

 

It continued the 1.03/1.04 trend of "let's keep taking stuff out and making things weaker".

 

 

This is bad, very bad.

 

 

Now you can counter this *if you add new content that is on par with the things you take out, but they simply did not do this.

 

The roll+stab and the Kata's are pretty looking, but totally useless against people with anything above a mediocre level of skill, I'm sorry but this is true.

 

 

Nothing else that could even be studied in regards to being a possible combat method was added, nothing at all.

 

What am I going to do, wall grab a guy to death?

 

The problem is, so much of this game is 100% identical Jedi Outcast (same force, same guns, same single saber style) that if you continue to chip away and take away all the lethal methods of killing a foe, eventually after 2 patches and a year and a half, you will reach a point where there is literally nothing left.

 

 

That is where we are at in full force saber only right now, and the reason we are speaking up.

 

 

 

It has nothing to due with taking the time to learn a "new game".

 

Hell scrap all of the Outcast content and start from scratch with all new powers and all new sabers, we would gladly learn it.

 

But what happened is we got back 85% of the things we have learned and mastered and only maybe 15% new content and that 15% is ridiculously weak when compared to the 15% that was taken out in the transition (kicks, grip nerf etc.).

 

 

1.03 and 1.04 were made for one reason and one reason only, let's not b.s. ourselves.

 

It was made to give the noobs who were getting raped a means to survive.

 

You don't take one lethal killing method after another out of a game to speed up game play or make it more dangerous, you do it to make it softer and easier for the less skilled who can not survive.

 

 

Jedi Academy follows that trend to the letter.

 

It's the same thing they do in public schools where you keep making the questions and tests easier and easier until all the kids in the class can answer them...

[VanishingVision]

Crud, I thought the argument was over when I posted, I should have waited till they were done debating so someone would actually read my post ... sniffle ... sniffle...

 

Shrug,

-VanishingVision

[FK | unnamed]

that was me ^ my account was being un honorable last night and my log-in was laming me.

[dyehead]

I will post the consensus gripes in the Raven Forums sometime later today..

[Jello123]

Your gay bold things are ridiculously stupid, people.

 

Stop it please before I die laughing.

[Spider AL]

I figured someone of your omnipotence would have read my post earlier saying that servers are not showing up on the master list.

Oh I "get it" just fine, dye. I "get" that you're trying to squeeze your premature gameplay alterations in with a legitimate bugfixing patch, which is what patching should be for.

 

We want no premature gameplay changes, Raven! Remember 1.03, and wait!

 

Al we were both here since the start (1.02) lets really look at the difference between now and 1.03 since you bring a comparison to the two so often:

 

The push/pull system was just as broke in 1.02 as it was in 1.03.

 

The back stab did just as much damage in 02 as it did in 03.

 

So those were not "specific" to the 1.03 patch, let's make sure everyone is clear on that before I start.

Ah, have to stop you there unnamed. Firstly, the primary reason backstab became a problem in 1.03 because it was COMPARATIVELY overpowered. It didn't inherently cause more damage than in 1.02, but COMPARED to the other sabre moves in 1.03, it was the most powerful move. That meant that it was used most of the time, and caused the game to be shrunk to a one-move affair. That's an example of bad, premature patching. The more premature a patch is, the more mistakes are likely to creep in, and the more unexpected the inevitable side effects of gameplay changes will be.

 

To clarify, in 1.02 one could pull people over, yes. But one had a choice of several moves that could finish that person off right there. In 1.03, one move. Backswing. Tedious. Lack of variety = bad.

 

SECONDLY, most people forget the batsabre effect of red stance in 1.02. Red stance strikes physically knocked people back. That meant that the sabre wasn't in the opponent as long as in 1.03, when batsabre was removed. This made the oversight of leaving backswing at the same damage level EVEN starker, EVEN more imbalancing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think nerfing the sabres for 1.03 was one of the WORST ideas that was suggested on these boards before the patch. The WORST. But if you're GOING to nerf something, you must do it in a balanced way, otherwise you'll not only have a nerfed game, but an imbalanced nerfed game.

 

-Lowering saber damage scales across the board and having a higher rate of auto blocking made standard saber fighting worthless in any game mode outside of No Force saber only.

This is in fact, untrue. A single overhead red stance strike took gunners out, providing they didn't have huge amounts of shields at the time. Combined with sight, this helped me win a lot of points in guns CTF. People on low force rarely activate sight themselves, so my ambushes were that much more effective on repeater-wielding flagrunners too busy to look in dark secluded alcoves. Tee hee. A lot of people complained that sabres were useless in guns matches both before and after both patches. I never had a problem with it, and used it consistently throughout JO's lifetime.

 

-Sabers are still weak as hell, but now made even weaker because the BS is nerfed to the point of being almost useless.

Personally I'd rather see people running around with sabres using all the moves and not doing much damage, than running around using one move and getting insta-kills. Such things do not reward skill and practice. Therefore I think your analysis of 1.04 is invalid. Oh, and NF duel was improved by 1.04 too. Not that leaping backswing was hard to avoid when a newcomer threw it at you, but it got tedious to see the same thing over and over. And newbies had a better chance of accidentally killing me because of backswing too, that's what 1-hit-kills do to a game. I didn't like that.

 

I like the fact that whatever skill I possess makes me virtually invulnerable when newbies attack. I want it to stay that way. I worked hard to get that advantage.

 

It's the same thing they do in public schools where you keep making the questions and tests easier and easier until all the kids in the class can answer them...

Oh I agree entirely with your analogy. But that's not the point. In JO, new techniques were being discovered up until the end of july, that made sabres very dangerous. Leaping overhead attacks, exploitation of the side flip, etc. Now, I personally loved 1.04's sabre fighting once I'd had plenty of time to find those new techniques. That's proof enough to me that each iteration of a game needs time to be explored. We, the people who were discovering and using new techniques, never stopped discovering them. There was a new technique every day for a while! Techniques that changed the way we played the game.

 

Sure, 1.02 would have been nice. But one must make the best of things. Change can mean bad things as easily as good, so it's best to have time to scout out the land before moving around.

 

You can say "this isn't a new game" all you like, but there are subtle differences in the rhythm of sabre duels that are being picked up on and exploited by players already. Because of the range of the attacks. Because of their rate. Because of their damage. Because of the hit graphics. Because of the sounds. Because of EVERY subtle difference. And you may regard it as a patch, yes, but legally and technically it's not. It's a new game. And that's all the proof anyone needs.

 

Most of the weapons and the interface for JO were inspired by JK. I LOVE that similarity. I don't decry it. Likewise I'd be disappointed if Raven had shuffled the control system around for no reason, when the JO system was quite servicable (though some people will say that it wasn't intuitive enough) and was quite like the system from JK before it. It's fun to play a game in a series that you're accustomed to. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way, but hey.

 

1.03 and 1.04 were made for one reason and one reason only, let's not b.s. ourselves.

 

It was made to give the noobs who were getting raped a means to survive.

Raven made 1.03 because a vocal minority of "noobs" who were getting "raped" asked them to. They made 1.04 to try to fix the mess that 1.03 made of gunning, of guns CTF, of FFA, and to an extent, NF duel. I SO sympathise with Raven on that. They did what they thought the community wanted. Unfortunately what they thought was "the community" turned out to be a bunch of self-interested whiners who could shout very very loudly.

 

That's why I'm here now, though, to see if I can help stop it happening again, or at least to plant a seed of warning in Raven's collective mind so that they'll be more cautious this time around.

 

We say: no premature gameplay patching, Raven! A couple of months at least before gameplay changes!

[-(- -)-Pyro]

how many hours a day do you devote to LF posting m8?

[Emon]

Considering his 21 month average is only 0.78 posts per day, not that much.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by GreenSmoke

how many hours a day do you devote to LF posting m8?

 

Not as many as he devotes to thought, apparently.

 

1.03 was a pretty terrible patch all-in-all, but the current JA is 1.03 all over again. Sure, people will mock you just the same (assfighter and whatnot) but, well, it works. FBS owns FFA, TFFA, CTF and NF dueling. I can't really speak on FF dueling as I don't do much of that, but I assume it's just the same.

 

Paired saber FBS is the BEST way I've found of nailing an FC in JA's version of S/O CTF. Why? Because it does nearly 200 damage on a solid hit. Considering it's one of the few moves remaining where you can maintain any sort of momentum through the majority of the movement, it's a no-brainer for FC stompin'.

 

No, I don't think there would be any "premature patching" going on if Raven wanted to tweak up saber damage here and there.

 

Instead of screaming "OMG OMG OMG IM A JEDI!!!!11111oneone" why don't you actually get out and play the game? It's pretty obvious that there are some major balance issues RIGHT NOW. Things that should, in all honesty, BE ADDRESSED.

 

Single saber's advantage is reach. Fair enough, its definitely got the reach. Its kata is versatile and useful in nearly every situation I've stumbled into, and it hasn't changed, in use and basic technique, from JO. It isn't, however, in the same league as even paired sabers, let alone the saberstaff as far as damage potential runs. There is no "spamability" for the single saber, so it can't even keep an enemy on the defensive the same way paired sabers and the saberstaff do.

 

All-in-all, it's a fairly inferior weapon in JA. Not totally useless, obviously, but not what it could and SHOULD be. It may not deserve a patch in and of itself, but it doesn't deserve to be shelved until later.

[Emon]

Originally posted by Ardent

Instead of screaming "OMG OMG OMG IM A JEDI!!!!11111oneone" why don't you actually get out and play the game? It's pretty obvious that there are some major balance issues RIGHT NOW. Things that should, in all honesty, BE ADDRESSED.

 

Who's arguing this? Seriously, I haven't payed much attention to this thread. Why was there ever an issue about the issues needing to be tended to? The only thing I really see is people complaining that the controls or system itself isn't "leet" enough for their "omgwtfhardcore uranoob" skills.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Emon

Who's arguing this? Seriously, I haven't payed much attention to this thread. Why was there ever an issue about the issues needing to be tended to? The only thing I really see is people complaining that the controls or system itself isn't "leet" enough for their "omgwtfhardcore uranoob" skills.

 

Did you miss the entire monlogue Spider posted?

 

Seriously, if you're not even going to read the last five posts, why reply?

[Emon]

What I saw was an analysis of Jedi Outcast and why he liked the saber combat system, not, "OOMGOMG I R JHEDI JA R TEH PERFACT GAEM"

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Emon

What I saw was an analysis of Jedi Outcast and why he liked the saber combat system, not, "OOMGOMG I R JHEDI JA R TEH PERFACT GAEM"

 

He based it on "what it was like" rather than "what it is."

 

Obviously, this is great for fantasy fulfillment, but terribly bad for productivity. The plain fact of the matter is: there are problems NOW that need to be addressed VERY SOON. Not "in a while." Not just SP issues, either (and I can think of a few), but the issue with the single saber isn't something a couple of people have surmised. It is something dozens of people have OBSERVED.

 

The whole argument that JA is not JO is something he felt necessary to propagate, yet he's willing to use JO to talk about why JA is fine for now? No, sorry, I don't buy hypocrisy at any price.

 

I liked JO just as well as he, but I played 1.03 and 1.04 when they were patched because I was willing to believe Raven had made these decisions for a reason. I had fun playing the game too. Now, however, I have to place my faith in Raven that, once again, they will make the correct decision and fix the problems. I can desire a "balanced nerfing" or whatever...but I don't agree that I should have to wait for a fix. Balance is something nobody can agree on anyway, so why delay to cater to a thought that's subjective by its very nature?

 

As I said...there are problems that need to be addressed as soon as possible. Waiting shouldn't be on Raven's list of things to do.

[FK | unnamed]

Lack of variety = bad.

 

Agreed.

 

and in taking out and prohibiting many things that were available to people in Outcast, but no longer are in Academy, we are continuing the "let's keep removing and weakening things until people have nothing left to bitch about being "spammed/whored" Raven patch mantra.

 

This would not be an issue *if the vast majority of offensive/defensive content was changed into something new, but it’s the same old drain and it functions exactly like it did in JO (just a small example).

 

 

 

But if you're GOING to nerf something, you must do it in a balanced way; otherwise you'll not only have a nerfed game, but an imbalanced nerfed game.

 

Agreed again.

 

But in Academy we got the powerful force combos taken away, sabers weakened (in saber only mode), yet the all powerful drain remains identical to it's former self.

 

ff/so now has healing being done at 3 times the rate damage is being caused.

 

Not very balanced if you ask me, and hence the reason all these players are complaining about "stalemates".

 

 

 

 

This is in fact, untrue. A single overhead red stance strike took gunners out, providing they didn't have huge amounts of shields at the time. Combined with sight, this helped me win a lot of points in guns CTF. People on low force rarely activate sight themselves, so my ambushes were that much more effective on repeater-wielding flag runners too busy to look in dark secluded alcoves. Tee hee. A lot of people complained that sabres were useless in guns matches both before and after both patches. I never had a problem with it, and used it consistently throughout JO's lifetime.

 

 

I'll take your word for it, because I never really played all weapon games in-depth.

 

My game type of choice does not have pick ups enabled so shields are never an issue.

 

 

Personally I'd rather see people running around with sabres using all the moves and not doing much damage, than running around using one move and getting insta-kills. Such things do not reward skill and practice.

 

Agreed yet again, and I'm going to make big bold letters to the others reading this:

 

Hence the reason when many of you say "use saber damage scale at 2 or 3" this is NOT a solution.

 

We do not want a game type that once required precision and skill to be turned into a "bump and kill" fest where everyone just flails around randomly getting instant kills by simply brushing up against people with un aimed swings.

 

 

I like the fact that whatever skill I possess makes me virtually invulnerable when newbie’s attack. I want it to stay that way. I worked hard to get that advantage.

 

So did I.

 

And the newbies pose no more a threat to me now then they did 6 months ago in Outcast.

 

Problem is, when a match/duel has two people or teams who are smart enough to grasp that healing can be done at 3 times the rate damage can be caused, matches simply never end.

 

 

 

 

Because of EVERY subtle difference. And you may regard it as a patch, yes, but legally and technically it's not. It's a new game. And that's all the proof anyone needs.

 

Subtle is fine and dandy, but subtle does not beat a guy playing total defense in a duel who is just holding down the drain key, nor does it beat a seasoned team in CTF that provides energize/team heal support to their capper.

 

If you take away the "WHAM YOUR ASS IS DEAD" moves and damage scales (like the 1 hit kill rage+dfa's, the 100+ grip+kick, etc.) you need to replace them with moves and combos of the same damage rate if the healing factor is left unchanged, and this simply was not done.

 

 

 

Raven made 1.03 because a vocal minority of "noobs" who were getting "raped" asked them to. They made 1.04 to try to fix the mess that 1.03 made of gunning, of guns CTF, of FFA, and to an extent, NF duel. I SO sympathize with Raven on that. They did what they thought the community wanted. Unfortunately what they thought was "the community" turned out to be a bunch of self-interested whiners who could shout very very loudly.

 

That's why I'm here now, though, to see if I can help stop it happening again, or at least to plant a seed of warning in Raven's collective mind so that they'll be more cautious this time around.

 

Agreed again, but you simply can't look at things with a black/white cut and dry mentality.

 

The people asking for a simple toggle cvar to bring back kicks or to toggle the other nerfs (like force usage for specials and the grip LOS penalty) on/off are in no way shape or from anything like the people who cried for 1.03/04.

 

For starters, we are not complaining about a move/combo we can not figure out how to defend against.

 

Hell, we are begging for any move or high damage combo to be found/put in.

 

Anything, we don't care how cheap or "lame" it is, but the undisputable fact is:

 

In Full Force saber only, the healing powers are stronger than any single saber or force based attack and any combination of saber and/or force attack.

 

There is simply no way to kill people who can heal at two (drain) or three times (team based heal) the rate his opponent can damage.

 

It's just basic math.

 

You cause 25 hp of damage; I can heal 50 at the same rate.

 

You cause 75 in one shot; my team heals me to 100 in one shot.

 

Stalemate.

 

 

 

 

 

I also understand and will openly say, this is NOT an across the board problem.

 

A gun/saber match is actually pretty balanced.

 

The problem is when the gun is taken out of the equation, the game play balance all goes down the crapper.

 

 

Now before anyone says "saber only with force is just a fraction of the game" let me remind everyone that sabers are "just a fraction of the game" as well.

 

But it was enough of a “fraction” that the overwhelming number of servers ran various types of saber only modes that vastly outnumbered "full weapon" servers in JO and still do in JA.

 

It was also enough of a “fraction” that the gaming ladders for JO had far more activity on full force saber only game types than every single other game type combined.

 

The saber and force were the single two most popular elements of this game and the main focus of Academy for a reason.

 

 

It's what people want.

 

Just a few weeks of beta testing could have prevented this mess, but like the guy who made the final call on not putting a cd key+ key server in the final release, someone is making some really bad decisions.