KaiaSowapit Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 or, How Whiney Jedi Are Spoiling This Game Don't get me wrong, I've run across many good-spirited people who put having fun above anything else, especially their personal egos. They just seem harder to come by lately. More frequently, I find player "A" complaining about player "B" being a (insert various childish put-down here). Take the expression "lamer" or to "lame." It's become so widespread in use that it has virtually lost all meaning. Initially, my understanding of the term was that it applied to people who shamelessly and intentionally took advantage of other players who were either typing or editing their configuration (had their "chat" window up). Whether that's right or wrong is subject to debate, but that's not the point of this thread. Then "lamer" apparently had its meaning extended by a number of people who determined that players shouldn't attack one another if their lightsabers were deactivated. Though personally I think that's rather silly (given that Darth Maul would just as likely lop your head off regardless), again whether it's right or wrong is not the point of this thread. Now "lamer" or to "lame" appears to apply to nearly anyone or anything a player doesn't particularly like. For example: using Force Lightning using Force Grip using Force Push/Pull using Saber Throw Sometimes it's the frequency someone uses these abilities, but just as often it's if they are used at all. (Again I digress, but I can't help but to point out the ridiculousness of complaining about the use of the "Force" in a Star Wars based game.) Even more disturbing is how often those "complaining" are guilty of using the EXACT same tactics themselves (apparently what has them "upset" is that someone had the audacity to use it against THEM). It's not so much the degradation of the term "lamer" I'm concerned about. Frankly, I couldn't care less. It's the general attitude of more and more gamers I find myself playing with - or as is the case NOT playing with. All too often I'll fire up Academy MP to blow off a little free time and have some fun, and end up wading through one whiney player after another. "There's not enough Force power here..." "There's TOO MUCH Force power here!" "So and so is a n00b because they're using such and such [saber, stance, force power, etc.]" The irony is, those complaining about bad sportsmanship are frequently the worst sports of all. The bottom line: if you find yourself looking for a server and mine pops up on the list (as randomly and infrequently as that may be), please do us both a favor and don't join if you'd rather spend more time trading insults than having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CortoCG Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 That's the same very same reason I quit playing Counter Strike a couple of years ago. When I started, veterans oftenly called me "n00b" in a despective way, and when I finally got l33t playing CS, newbies oftenly voted and kicked me out for being accused of "cheater". I thought it was intrinsic of CS players to be so sissys or "maricas" (as my ppl say). But, after playing on several JK2 and JKA servers, I can see, that this whiney attitude is intrinsic of "nerd" players. So afraid of facing real life problems with "honor" and "code" that they think playing games requires real skillz and has real meaning in life. This is why, these so called l33t players get frustrated when some "unskilled" asshole as myself kills them with a lighted match while they are resting the lightsaber off. This is why they complain and whine all the time. My only piece of advice on the subject is this: GET A LIFE. Cuz when you finally walk out the door of this useless virtual realm, a whole world with no honor and no lightsabers will ran over your whiney ass and give no excuses in return. That's LIFE. Life is not playing around with silly glowing sticks as lightsabers on a PC. So save up the whiney for when you really need it and HAVE FUN when playing silly computer games. Magister Dixit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Darth Maul surely would chop off your head. But then again, is JK any realism or SW realism at all? JK has never been especially realistic, any game is not realistic. People use following arguments against ''honor'' people (sometimes): ''When did you see Jedis and Siths bow to eachother in the movies?'' ''When in the movies didn't Jedi or Sith kill eachother when their sabers are turned off?'' JK2 and JA are far away from the movies! You can't use movie-arguments. I was at a server yesterday, and some guy called me a lamer because I killed him when he had his saber up, and he wasn't even typing or something, he just stood and started at some guy. So the thing is, I am a 'lamer' just because he wasn't ready? That's called going to far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Yo Kaia, it's me, Lathain. I of course agree with you, seeing as how I tend to clean house on your server with relative ease and am thus bitched at. I get bitched at for saber throwing through the gaps in the guards of doublesaberists and dual saberists. Hehe. I can understand the point IF Pull+Throw or excessive Grip is used, as both punch through Absorb... I think it's fairly retarded if my saber turns off if I'm Gripped yet i have Absorb on, making it impossible to retaliate with Saber Throw... Or i'm open to Pull if Absorb is on. But then, isn't there some new way to resist Grip? Do enlighten me on that. Speaking of cleaning house... Where've you been lately? Haven't seen you on your server or AIM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 CortoCG, you said it well, and succinctly. N1. I suppose some sad people play games to escape from life, because their life is sad. Therefore, they create all these silly, and quite frankly, dishonourable "codes of honour" that help them compensate for the fact that they're not really Jedi, even when they're pretending to be in a game. Ergh. Crush them all, that's what I say. Nothing is lame, the only rule is "win". Get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 JK2 and JA are far away from the movies! You can't use movie-arguments. The point of this thread wasn't to debate Lucas canon, realism or "honor" codes. I was at a server yesterday, and some guy called me a lamer because I killed him when he had his saber up, and he wasn't even typing or something, he just stood and started at some guy. So the thing is, I am a 'lamer' just because he wasn't ready? That's called going to far! That embodies the point of this thread EXACTLY. MMXP, good to see you. Sorry I've been in a galaxy far far away. Though again it's not the point of this thread to discuss exploits or problems with game mechanics, much to your credit, you don't whine about them IN-GAME. My frustration is the general lack of maturity I keep finding on my server. Instead of simply leaving or sucking it up and making the best of what might very well be frustrating, many resort to childish rants and name-calling. And it doesn't stop at "lamer" or "n00b" - all too frequently it escalates to "n_gger," "f_ggot" or "j_w." (Who'da guessed Star Wars had so much appeal to homophobic, neo-nazi white supremacists?) Heads up folks: I have zero tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If a mod/patch comes out to disable chat, you darn well better believe I'm installing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|GG|Carl Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 If I go to a server, this sometimes happens: Other guy: n00b! Me: No, I'm no n00b, I'm a lamer Other guy: That makes 'em think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I always find it quite funny when someone gets beat by someone else, and they call the person a newb. If the guy was a newb then how the hell did he beat you? I mean even if he whores/spams/lames you. Then he must of played long enough to learn at least one move. It reminds me of the Black Knight from Monty Phyton... "I'm the black knight I can't lose!" That is exactly the mindset of most of these people. They are a great and powerful Jedi Master so oviously if you kill them, it had to be a cheep kill. There's no way a n00b could have the skils to beat them fairly. It also reminds me of something that happened playing ActionQuake some years ago. Some guy was on top of a building near where the grenades spawn in, and spent like 5 min's dropping grenades on people running by. After the 3rd or 4th time he dropped one near me, I ran up there and fraged him with the MP5... He accused me of being a camper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I have spent more time playing on my own server honestly than joining, although I have done that a lot as well. For the most part I have actually encountered very little whining (a few people that did shut up when asked to, heh). I've seen far more whining on these forums than in the game, I kid you not.... That doesn't mean it isn't out there, but I guess I've been lucky! The whole "movie argument" thing is only used as an argument piece because some "honorists" (for lack of a better term) make the claim that their system is more "true to the spirit of the movies" or something like that. I think it's just the opposite, so sometimes it helps shut them up to point that out... not always, but sometimes. This comes hand in hand with the argument that their "honor codes" would be laughed at and ignored in the vast majority of FPS games (First Person Shooters). Of course if you use this argument FIRST (before the movie argument) you'll most likely get people saying stuff like "This isn't Quake/a fragfest, this is Star Wars! When did you see XXXX happen in the movies??" PS: Bots are fine, but just take a look at their sad performance on Vjun FFA or their absence in Siege, and you'll see the necessity of playing humans. ; p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Ah Kaia, the reason i don't say anything is because if they're used on me I take perverse pleasure in chopping the fool who uses them on me to pieces. They don't tend to actually finish me, much to their users' regret... It's the fact some things are there to be exploited that I find distasteful. But eh, as long as it's not a totally unbeatable scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractal-Coffee Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Bots are fine, but just take a look at their sad performance on Vjun FFA or their absence in Siege, and you'll see the necessity of playing humans. Have you seen the excuse for pathing they have in the Duel/Powerduel Rancor Pit level (the official one, not that new rancor level which is actually quite fun )? It's ridiculous. I ended up having to kick them all because they were just running backwards and forwards and never getting close enough to one another to actually fight. Stupid bots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I was too busy slaughtering them en masse with that map set to FFA, so I guess I never noticed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargasso Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Regardless of whatever Survey X says at any given moment about the average age of game players being older than what I'm about to describe, I feel pretty sure that most of the people that play these kind of games are kids. If they aren't technically then easily act as such thanks to anonymity. If you want mature, intelligent play in the community at large 9 times out of 10, hell, even 5 times out of 10, you've got to look somewere else besides online FPS video games. Play something else. unfortunately. That's the way it's going to be until there is a dramatic change in the way these games are played. I mean frankly you're pushing the pixles of your toy glow stick around to "kill" the other player behind the relative safety of your computer screen... this is something that is simply NOT going attract a lot of mature, intelligent people. Not that it can't or hasn't/i] attracted intelligent people and not that the game can't be played intelligently.... it just does not inherently attract the number of these kind of people that are going to make the overall experience better. I'm pretty sure most people that with these qualities are doing something else with their time... Oh, yeah... now here comes the part where you insert thing I didn't say and flame me behind the safety of your keyboard.. condescending, hypocritical, etc...well whatever helps you sleep at night. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N3h3bkau Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 What you have all failed to state though... Honor code in most games = Rules Rules we follow or get kicked. Most servers say something along the lines of follow the honor code, or they list the rules. If you break these rules you deserve to be either called lame or kick from the server. Especially when I see the Admin right off the bat say "Please use the Honor code, no attacking while sabers are down, chat killing, or constant spamming of the same attack/force power." Now I understand that some servers don't state these things and some would like to play with the honor code while others FFA, what I do? Stay out of the way of the FFA'ers and ask to limit FFA in one area in the map while the ones that want to be able to walk around stay outta their way. Then again most of you are to head strong to listen to a polite request from another player and yell "I'm gonna hunt you n00b down!!!1!111" Oh well such as life... My request... give the "Role players" room, the maps are pretty large and I'm sure they would agree to sectioning off the map. Then all the parties are happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial_thug Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I used to play bots only just for that same reason until I found good servers. Don't give up hope man, some good servers I found for JK2 are: HuntingWabbits.com Sithblisters Blisterhouse and for JA (I really don't know many cause the game is still new, but I found one good one so far...) the TITAN domain Beside, especially with JA, the Botplay is'nt very good. The levels seem like they are not waypointed very well cause' the bots jump around like retards. It just in no way compares to the challenge you could get against real ppl. btw: my player name is "Disgruntled_Padawan" or just plain "Disgruntled" sometimes, I hope to run into you on some of thes servers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scythefall Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Well, thanks to Kurgan for giving the link to the converted Jedi Outcast maps, because at least those maps have good BOT support. I was very disappointed with the BOT support in JA and it's obvious now it was just sloppy design in the maps. The BOTs work great in the JO maps and it's actually fun to just crank them up, throw in 8 bots with no weapons and fast force regen and have a free for all. -JKII_ffa.pk3 (JK2 FFA converted map pack) http://www.pcgamemods.com/2320/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CortoCG Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Wait a minute. What damn rules are we talking about? I mean, if the game allows me to kill all my enemies by simply hitting the same button all the time, I will keep hitting that button unil no one else is left alive. You can call me lame, noob, sucker, and bla bla bla, for I won't care. If THAT button was meant to kill players and killing players is the primary goal in the game, then I'd call LAME, NOOB, SUCKER, CHEAP (and everything in between) those players who don't use THAT freaking button. Otherwise, go play Barbie Goes Shopping kiddos! (actually I do, lmao) Corto never stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by Nehebkau If you break these rules you deserve to be either called lame or kick from the server. We are telling you why certain rules are bad. No-one has yet explained why these rules would do the community any good. If you enforce bad rules, you are dumb. It's that simple. "Please use the Honor code, no attacking while sabers are down, chat killing, or constant spamming of the same attack/force power." And we have explained why this kind of Honour Codes do not work. Enforcing them is stupid. Who wants to willingly enforce stupid rules and ruin the community? Take "constant spamming" for example. Who draws the line? If you absorb my lightning-attack 3 times in a row can I call you a lamer and have you banned from the server? Or am I the lamer for zapping you 3 times in a row? Why are we even having this retarded conversation!? Why don't we all just play the game? Stay out of the way of the FFA'ers and ask to limit FFA in one area in the map while the ones that want to be able to walk around stay outta their way. And we have explained why this does not work. The biggest problem isn't really you dueling or walking saber down in a FFA. The problem is you flipping out if someone scratches you without bowing and asking for permission first. The problem is you resorting to incessant whining, kick votes and admin command abuse. My request... give the "Role players" room, the maps are pretty large and I'm sure they would agree to sectioning off the map. Then all the parties are happy. Again: 1) doesn't work. 2) is not a FFA anymore. 3) Honour people want to invade the whole galaxy and every server on it, not just a bespin pad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CortoCG Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 "Role players"? WTF? Next thing we'll be hearing is that they date Alora and go out with the customized chicks from JA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N3h3bkau Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 We are telling you why certain rules are bad. No-one has yet explained why these rules would do the community any good. If you enforce bad rules, you are dumb. It's that simple. Rules are rules, the server sets up a list of rules you are required to follow you break them you must then be punished. And we have explained why this kind of Honour Codes do not work. Enforcing them is stupid. Who wants to willingly enforce stupid rules and ruin the community? Who said community? I was speaking of a single server not the whole world. Who's to say what rules are stupid? (refer to previous quote) Take "constant spamming" for example. Who draws the line? If you absorb my lightning-attack 3 times in a row can I call you a lamer and have you banned from the server? Or am I the lamer for zapping you 3 times in a row? Why are we even having this retarded conversation!? Why don't we all just play the game? This is up to the admin and players (If voting is allowed) This is not up to you, if multiple people vote in your favor then so much the better. And we have explained why this does not work. The biggest problem isn't really you dueling or walking saber down in a FFA. The problem is you flipping out if someone scratches you without bowing and asking for permission first. The problem is you resorting to incessant whining, kick votes and admin command abuse. Again, it does work if you don't "flip out" everytime you see another player and feel the need to backstab, sneak up, or just plain strike the person while his saber is down. Learn some self control and attack people that are ready to fight, not just grab some easy points by attacking defense less players. Again: 1) doesn't work. 2) is not a FFA anymore. 3) Honour people want to invade the whole galaxy and every server on it, not just a bespin pad. 1) Could work if you would stop trying for easy points and attacking people that are not hurting anyone by taking up a slot on the server. 2) Not everything has to be FFA this is why the "k" button was put in so that you could challenge players 1 vs 1. 3) Not everyone wants to invade the earth (Seeing how we have not explored the galaxy yet) most people join a server and everyone is playing "Honour code" style so they do the same, then some person comes in and go FFA and attacks them while they are watching a fight. Cheap shots are never ok. "Role players"? WTF? Next thing we'll be hearing is that they date Alora and go out with the customized chicks from JA. I used that term because some like it others don't how about we come up with a term that everyone can agree on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weiderudare Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I haven't played that much online and haven't encountered this "honour code" yet. I like the idea of honour code, it probably makes you feel a bit more part of something than just plainly run around and stab down people. I can agree that the code sometimes pissess people off. I mean, like you have fought this guy for 2 minutes and suddenly, he turns his saber off and yells: "Saber down! You can't hurt me!" This would piss me off bigtime. But again, the code is probably a great way to have all of the players have a chance to enjoy the game. In JK2, I never wrote in the chat because as soon as I did, someone used grip on me and threw me off a ledge. I think that the people thinking: "The honour code sucks" probably are the one who only cares for one thing: Having the most kills on the server. But the people using this code, probably care more about having fun. And isn't that the whole thing of games? Having fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N3h3bkau Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by weiderudare Having fun? Well said. he turns his saber off and yells: "Saber down! You can't hurt me!" Most of the time (I can't say never because its been know to happen) people just run around the server with the saber down to visually show people that he is not going to attack/fight anyone at that time. I've personally haven't run into people that turn their saber off last minute to avoid defeat. Only time it has happened to me is when we both agreed to end combat because it was taking to damn long. I think that the people thinking: "The honour code sucks" probably are the one who only cares for one thing: Having the most kills on the server. But the people using this code, probably care more about having fun. Couldnt have said it better. Once again taking from my experience (I can't tell you how it will turn out because each situation is different) When I FFA because people are not using the "Honour code" I am usually top 3, On a Honour Code server I'm usually only getting 10-15 kills because I like to observe my opponent and learn his moves before a fight. Makes things more enjoyable when you predict each others moves and counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsync Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by Spider AL CortoCG, you said it well, and succinctly. N1. I suppose some sad people play games to escape from life, because their life is sad. Therefore, they create all these silly, and quite frankly, dishonourable "codes of honour" that help them compensate for the fact that they're not really Jedi, even when they're pretending to be in a game. Ergh. Crush them all, that's what I say. Nothing is lame, the only rule is "win". Get used to it. So sad, but true. For some starwars fanatics who devote their lives to this game (you know the ones that spend all of their money to go see a starwars movie 20 times so it could beat out another movie like spiderman or the ones that "Triumph the insult comic dog was cracking on in the "Conan O Brian late night show" or the ones who sit behind you during one of the Lord of the Ring movies sipping on soda pretending like it's ale) it creates a sort of alternate reality where they just can't help, but to do nothing than to make rules that would keep the game balanced in their own minds. Now I don't mind if people like stuff like that, but just don't ruin the fun in public servers. Most of these people spend time chatting about the weirdest things. Like I went on one server where some of the people were talking about they only go out with J-Lo if unless she were dressed like a twilek or an elf. I mean do they really have to talk about this stuff like it's a religion. It's really getting annoying to play with a game that was designed for simplistic combat and then other people add stupid rules. I knew this was going to happen since lucas arts put all those animations and Star Wars Galaxies (a game that was totally unfinished and ended up being terrible) doesn't even come close to the combat offered in this game.The worse part is since the bots are useless until Lucas Arts and Raven comes out with patch we're stuck with going to these bad servers unless you make your own of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weiderudare Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by Nehebkau Most of the time (I can't say never because its been know to happen) people just run around the server with the saber down to visually show people that he is not going to attack/fight anyone at that time. I've personally haven't run into people that turn their saber off last minute to avoid defeat. Only time it has happened to me is when we both agreed to end combat because it was taking to damn long. Well, thats good to know... I was unsure of if people just used the code as a way to flee at the last minute... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 Sargasso, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like you said, it's not that the game can't attract mature, relatively intelligent people, it's just that chances are they're doing something else with their time (arguably like I should be doing myself). Nehebkau, again the point of this thread is not (was not) to debate "honor codes" - I am criticizing lousy attitudes and the tendency of players to abuse chat in game. I'll defend your right to keep/enforce "honor codes" on your server just as fiercely as I'd fight to keep that malarky off of mine (no disrespect intended). Kurgan and others, for the record, I wasn't 100% sincere when I suggested I'd rather play with bots. MP sans people = SP. Yes I agree (strongly), the routing in Academy is sub-standard. Furthermore, the bot A.I. is anything but "intelligent." That said, I've never seen a bot throw a hissy-fit and question someone's sexual-orientation, ethnic background or grey-matter-to-feces ratio. I've also yet to witness a gaggle of bots attempt to vote-kick somebody off a server... for ANY reason. Stupid as they may be, bots still have a better concept of how to play this game than many of the human opponents I've encountered. To paraphrase my good friend Corto, if there's a button to press for "fun," I'm darn well going to press it as much and as often as I can. Unfortunately, for some of you turkeys (you know who you are ) that button defaults to "Y" and your idea of fun is badgering everyone off the server with self-absorbed ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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