How about REALITY (for SW, that is)? *spoilers*

[lukeskywalker1]

That true, but the scripting would be annoying. Plus ive heard the it was a rush job anyways. Scripting takes time (unless you want the civilians to just stand there!)

[IG-64]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

unless you want the civilians to just stand there!

 

like they do in galaxies?

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Master_Keralys

Ah, it finally comes up. I've been waitng for this .

 

There's a big difference between Dark Forces - where you're a merc and all you should really care about is getting paid - and Jedi Knight, JK2, and JA, where you should care about saving other people. That's the point of being a Jedi, isn't it?

 

Note to fool: Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight. Ring a bell to you? Yes, that's right, the ENTIRE Jedi Knight premise is a subset to the Dark Forces series.

 

Hell, Jedi Knight II payed homage to the origonal Dark Forces, when you did not have force powers and the saber right off the bat while playing as Kyle.

 

And blowing the hell out of the Dark Trooper project, doesn't that count towards the saving people bit?

 

As far as your Jedi argument goes, check the last scene after you blow the Arc Hammer to oblivion, it comes out of Vader's own mouth.

 

So no, there is no difference.

[Master_Keralys]

I understand that. I also understand that a mercenary has fewer commitments to that sort of thing. I also understand that the game engine DF was developed on was probably not able to do this sort of thing. This engine is fully capable of realizing it; the droids and jawas showed that.

 

Luke, that's a good call. It was a rush job. [sarcasm]Thank you so very much LEC. We love you![/sarcasm]

 

However, it would be nice to see that kind of attention to detail in future games of this series or even just games like it.

 

The point about the scummy areas is good too. However, I wasn't suggesting that those get the attention. I think that would have been better for Coruscant's underlevels, not its highest levels. (Speaking of which, why would a crimelord be at the top of the kilometers-high towers of Coruscant? It seems a little odd to me, since that's where the high end people live. Maybe he's in the government too. And if they knew about the crime lord before you got sent in, why did they wait till he was sending out assassin droids to take him out? Just a couple of thoughts) Coruscant's upper levels should have nice people around that you have to protect. Think about how much life there was there the movies!

[-DK-Squee]

i like crowds and crap like that. since i dont have an x-box (lol) i cant wait for KOTOR to come out for PC

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Master_Keralys

I also understand that the game engine DF was developed on was probably not able to do this sort of thing.

 

You also have to take into consideration that DF is how old?

 

Hold on... let me get the CD case... around 1995, I believe. That's the days of Doom/Quake.

[Giddamon]

Originally posted by Master_Keralys

Coruscant's upper levels should have nice people around that you have to protect. Think about how much life there was there the movies!

 

On Coruscant you run from a roof to another and last time I checked there aren't much civilians that spend their day on a roof.

 

If you look below you will see all the Coruscant traffic, you may try to jump on one of those "cars" down below anakin-style and see if the driver is willing to talk with you

[Master_Keralys]

Let's see if we can bump this You're on roofs, sure. But that doesn't mean that there are no civilians. Come on, it's Coruscant! Course, I still think we should have been a couple hundred floors down. And the layout of the level made little sense. There weren't even doors into the buildings - locked doors make sense. How else do the get outside - jump out the window? My point was that it would have made the game more real feeling if they'd had civilians here or there.

[Dethsaint]

I REALLY missed the civilians in this game. I mean for crying out loud, not even in mission 1 are there civilians. (Maybe it's just me, but it would be odd if the mercs had the authority to seal off the area because 2 Jedi and a monkey are spoiling their plans.)

 

As for Coruscant I was really disappointed. It is the biggest city in the universe but it is represented by huge black boxes with crummy yellow and blue squares as windows. Where are all the bars, shops and people? Where is the intense city speeder chase? Why can't I go pee on a public lavatory?

 

The motives of Raven and LEC are hidden, but not adding civilians is like... Indiana Jones without his hat

[tnd]

yeah, i agree, civilian npc's should be there...the PS2 game Bounty Hunter has lots of npc's wandering around...try that one!

 

 

dennis

[Kurgan]

The point of my comments was missed... if you want a game with tons of NPC's wandering around in a realistic environment, a dedicated FPS game like JA is not the place to look.

 

It might suck that SWG isn't an FPS, but it has loads of npc's and its multiplayer.

 

More graphically primitive games can also use the memory they save on eye candy to make more npc's wandering around in the environment.

 

And creating those huge environments and supporting all those players comes at a price... hence why you have a monthly fee with SWG.

 

For now, you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Sorry...

 

 

But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point.

 

 

If you're justing wanting the number of npc's in a map that JK/MotS had, you can already do that if you make your own maps though.

[babywax]

Playing this game through, I remember there being about 12-20 NPCs in some areas, I have some screens of many more than that on my system, which isn't exactly state of the art (GeForce 2 GTS). It didn't lag, this was in multiplayer with about 30 NPCs on screen. In the beginning of the map t2_trip, I spawned a TON of rebels and droid assassins, HUGE battle, until my game crashed, but I think that was a bug with the npc spawn cheat code.

With about 30-35 NPCs on screen, I lost about 5 FPS! That's on my old system too.

 

It's easily do-able. We're not asking for huge expansive land scapes Kurgan, we just want a little life in the game! It IS Jedi Knight, isn't it?

[Master_Keralys]

Exactly. I made that point earlier. The engine can easily handle the NPC's. Think about the battles on Korriban. And a couple open areas would be nice, with a little less linearity. The engine should be able to do that, too.

[ExcelsioN]

SW:KOTOR will be JA with npc's and D&D rules. And lots of other rpg stuff...

 

JA could do with some, and some of it's levels (like coruscant) could do with npc's. But remember the starting level from MoTs and the spaceport one, where you played Mara Jade.

 

Those were both great levels and JA should be more like them. In the old SW films, you often saw the characters in towns (the cantina in ANH for example).

 

Hopefully KOTOR will bring this kind of gaming, and leave JA to do what it wants.

[G_Moo]

As far as the "Kill Everything in Sight" problem:

 

Hey, you guys aren't thinking like Jedi's. You don't have to kill everyone you see. All you have to do is disarm them, like a nice little good Jedi would do. Force Pull the weapons out of there hands, and they'll surrender, instead of fighting you.

I first noticed this when I was running around with the same mentality: "Gee, if I'm such a good guy, and not using my force power to attack, like Obi Wan said, why are all these guys dying?"

Then, in the last level of JA, I noticed that the students of the Jedi Academy weren't killing everyone; instead the stormtroopers were running around with their hands in the air. That's when I figured it out.

'Pull' the weapons from their hands, use a bit of ammo, and do it again (you have to deplete your ammo, otherwise when you pull the weapon out and, instead of picking it up for yourself, it'll sit on the ground, and they'll grab it back and use it against you again).

There, now you're a good Jedi, and the game becomes alot harder.

 

I agree that it seems a bit silly that its one event that turns you from Light to Dark. Perhaps it should've been a build up of various things like which force powers you choose, which you use, and how you deal with combat, but that smacks alot of an RPG, which I think is something the designers wanted to avoid.

 

By the way, when exactly were you going to interact with nuetral NPCs? To me, the dumb droids and jawas just got in the way. I mean, were you going to strike up a coversation?

 

"Hey, how ya doin'?"

 

"I'm alright. Say, I was wondering, did you see any cultists running around, trailing chaos and havoc behind them?"

 

"Oh, yeah, I did. As a matter of fact, there's one now, sticking his lightsaber into your back."

 

"Gee! Thanks! Excuse me now while I die and restart this level."

 

Ummmm... Did you get anywhere, here?

 

Yeah, it would've been cute to see a bunch of people running away from the combat instead of joining in, but why, really, is that so neccesary?

 

And how exactly would diplocamy work? You get into a conversation, and pick your response from a list (ala 'Fallout', if any of you played it), and see what happens? If you mess up, then you failed the mission and go on? So? Pick another mission and continue. Because you'll never be back around that part of the galaxy, your failing will have no meaning in the long run, so why bother including the idea?

Instead, the designers chose to to allow missions that you had to complete using skill, not picking random conversation quotes.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Kurgan

The point of my comments was missed... if you want a game with tons of NPC's wandering around in a realistic environment, a dedicated FPS game like JA is not the place to look.

 

While I would normally agree with you with any other FPS, I'd have to disagree regarding this one. Firstly because the precedent was already set in the original Jedi Knight. Secondly because of the basic premise of Jedi Academy, in that you are a student of the Force, and Luke actually tells you about using diplomacy, etc. Thirdly...this series is moving slightly away from the 'dedicated FPS' style, which is no bad thing.

 

But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point.

 

If you could try it, I would say go and play Mace Griffin: Bounty Hunter. Unfortunately I believe it's release in the US was canned.

 

The graphics are good (possibly not as good as something like KOTOR, but they're still good - and probably comparable to JO), some of the levels are huge, and it has quite a few NPCs hanging around where they logically ought to be. Some run when the shooting starts...others like security details stand and fight. Some of the characters will speak to you. It also has some nice seamless transitions between space combat and FPS action.

 

You might also like to check out No One Lives Forever 2, particularly the Indian missions, where you have civilians in the streets, walking around (who will offer passing comments), while you're trying to sneak past the local police. In my view, the character detail and animation in NOLF2 is better than JA - although some of the models are lower poly counts. The graphics overall are better than JA's, IMHO.

 

Elite Force II - another Quake 3 tech game with comparable graphics to JA - also had some levels with a few NPC aliens - and lots of enemies on screen at the same time. Of course, places like Starfleet Academy and the Enterprise were chock full of NPC characters.

 

Take your pick.

 

 

Originally posted by G_Moo

Hey, you guys aren't thinking like Jedi's. You don't have to kill everyone you see. All you have to do is disarm them, like a nice little good Jedi would do. Force Pull the weapons out of there hands, and they'll surrender, instead of fighting you.

I first noticed this when I was running around with the same mentality: "Gee, if I'm such a good guy, and not using my force power to attack, like Obi Wan said, why are all these guys dying?"

 

Well...the only problem with this idea is that you only start off with a low level Force pull in the earlier missions - so it is impossible to pull the weapons from the hands of your enemies. Only when your Force Pull level goes up can you actually grab the weapons out of their hands.

 

Another Force power that I tried to use, but without much success, was Mind Trick. Unless you can quickly duck out of sight...the effect wears off, they spot you, and you're back to square one. I know, because I tried it on the Sandcrawler level, and ended up with a howling army of Sand People after me - who still attacked the Jawas.

 

As for interacting with NPCs...I don't particularly care about that RPG-centric idea. I don't want to go up and enter into some long conversation with an NPC character. Just having them say something as they spot me would be enough - similar to the way Half-Life did it. They offer a comment...and you can 'use' them to get another comment. Simple and effective. What's wrong with that?

 

Because you'll never be back around that part of the galaxy, your failing will have no meaning in the long run, so why bother including the idea?

 

The whole 'idea' is to breathe some life into the different environments. It is simply unrealistic having every level populated by people out to kill you. When you watch the movies, towns and cities are bustling centres...and only when the shooting starts do people start clearing the streets.

 

The other 'idea' is to return you to that morality scale. So if you kill innocents (or allow too many to die when you could have prevented it), you turn to the Dark Side...if you protect them, you go to the Light Side. I find that preferable to simply picking whatever Force power I choose at a whim...or having the choice whether or not to kill one person, and decide my fate, when I've already slaughtered a few hundred. It simply doesn't make sense in the overall context of the game. You are supposed to be a student learning the ways of the force, and not setting out to massacre people on every planet you visit. That is the context, to my mind - but the gameplay itself didn't actually give you that choice.

 

As for earlier comments about Jedi Knight and Dark Forces...if you actually cast your mind back, the aim of each level was not to kill everything in sight. In Dark Forces, I can remember just running through some areas without killing the Stormies - and just avoiding their fire. The game didn't log how many kills you made in each level - unlike the other FPS games of the time. Immediately that emphasised the fact that you should be focusing on the mission at hand, rather than clearing every level.

 

In Jedi Knight, when you started to get your Force powers going - you could pull weapons out of the hands of your enemies, and leave them. You could also use 'Persuasion' (a much better blanket-effect power, when compared to Mind Trick) in the later levels to simply walk past them. Again, the emphasis of the game was not on killing everyone or everything. You could complete the level with half the enemies intact...as long as you achieved your objective for the level.

 

So forgive me while I disgree they were supposed to be slaughter-fests.

[Master_Keralys]

Well said, Stormhammer.

 

I found it incredibly difficult to be a "Jedi" and to actually not just kill everyone in sight. As a side note, if you yank the guns out of a stormie's hands, and they pick up another one, they'll shoot you again.

 

Perhaps the next JK game (if there is one) will include these kinds of details. After all, it would be something to set the game apart and make it better; it would make a real difference in how people see the game. It would also help to develop the differences between the JK series and most other FPS games that Stormhammer was talking about.

[Celluzion]

I didn't mind the lack of civilian NPCs, but I'm biased, because my computer is an ancient Pentium 2 with only a GeForce 2 Video Card.

 

Maybe, if I had a better computer, I would mind. But its just me.

 

Civilian NPCS, in my opinion, was best implemented in Deus Ex, and hopefully, Deus Ex 2(I heard they cut down on random side-missions though ) Where what you did affected the mission and how you complete the game. You had a choice what to say; say the wrong thing, they turn hostile, say the right thing, you butter them up.

 

I was also hoping that the Droid Recovery mission on Tatooine had less Saber-Swining-Jedi-On-Force-Steroids, and more talking. But then, since when have you ever had a choice what to say in the Jedi Knight series, every conversation is scripted. I specifically put Mind Trick on level 1 for that mission(Don't ask why, I just thought it was "Cool").

 

If anyone played the Star Wars Episode 1 game with crappy graphics, I liked the approach they took for mind tricking a person. What they did was give a few options for interacting, and the one highlighted in Purple(?) was a Mind Trick option. The Mos Espa mission there was one of my favourites, I was; subconsciously begging the Tatooine missions to be like that.

 

Coruscant was disappointing, when I saw on the Tier Selection: Coruscant; I was like, WHOA! The biggest city in the Galaxy, I HAVE to see this. I was; terribly disappointed. Sure, you could see the traffic; but was that enough? Corellia, there were no civilians, so who the hell was the one who sent the distress signal? Lots of things don't make sense.

 

On not killing everyone thing, of course you have to kill everyone, they're bad guys, shooting at you, or trying to smack you silly with a gaffi stick or a tusken rifle, are you going to stand there and say

 

"Oh wow, a Gaffi Stick, can I see it?"

 

And consequently be whacked by it. I'd kill the sod immediately.

 

The decision to the Dark\Light side might not be the best, but it still does make sense, it doesn't matter if you're devoted to being a Jedi, look at Anakin, he didn't play with Dark powers, but still turned to Vader.

 

When you're angry, you're consumed entirely(I know, I've been extremely angry before), and Jaden felt betrayed by Rosh to turn to the Dark Side(IF you chose the Dark Side)

 

If you want a game with lots of civilians, play Hitman 1 or 2, I'd recommend playing 1, because it doesn't have ridiculous physics, it uses the improved(so called) Glacier engine for Hitman 2, and the physics are whack for some of the guns. You can shoot a guy with a dual Hardballer (Fancy name for the Colt 1911 45. ACP) and the guy could fly like 30-40 feet away.

 

Hitman 1 had a great level on Budapest, where you'd have to sneak past metal detectors in a crowded hotel, full of civilians.

[End Rant]

[Master_Keralys]

On not killing everyone thing, of course you have to kill everyone, they're bad guys

 

That's kind of our point. Everyone shouldn't be bad guys. If they weren't then you wouldn't have to kill everyone.

 

Your description of the Deus Ex system sounds about right for a Jedi to me.

 

I've come to the conclusion that you can explain Corellia by saying that the mercs killed everyone on board. But that still doesn't feel quite right.

 

Anakin had used dark side powers by the time he was twelve. If you disagree, go read Rogue Planet. He had also read about the Sith back on Tatooine in his childhood. And it took more than one event to turn him completely to the dark.

 

If Hitman can pull it off, why not JA?

[Kryn Dreith]

I disagree completely. It's an FPS, the point should be to kill people. NOT just negotiate your way through everything. And stealth? Ha! Doesn't anyone remember the last time they had a stealth level in the JK series? It flat out sucked!!!

 

If we're going to change it so we can all be happy little Jedi, maybe we should just go jump around in skirts, too (no offense, ladies). We want to kill them, not be happy and nice. Seriously.

[TheLiberator34]

i don't know about adding diplomacy to the next Jedi knight game, but they should definetely bring back civilians and the old morality scale. If you want to be a jedi you should have to act like it. Of course, civilians and innocent bystanders should be in logical locations. If I see some women standing in the middle of a group of dark jedi for no reason that would be silly. Put the same woman in a tatoine market place with a few other civilians and it would make sense.

[Kurgan]

Well guys, it's official, KOTOR PC is out (should be arriving in stores soon if it hasn't already) and SWG just got support for Jedi AND buildable cities AND ridable vehicles (with the Space Expansion coming soon with starfighter combat).

 

So the SW RPGers and "big world full of npc's dreamers" have more options now...

[Master_Keralys]

I sense that Kurgan doesn't like civilians... I sense a powerful new Sith Lord in the making...

 

Kryn, the examples of other games with lots of civilians obviously defeats your point. Just because many FPS's have no civilians and thus no morality except death doesn't mean that none should have them. Quake has had that flaw from the beginning, but not all series have... Try reading the rest of the thread before you make ridiculous posts like that, 'kay?

[Kurgan]

Muhahahah! Well I "like civilians" in the sense that I'd love to see more of them in-game for atmospheric purposes.

 

I just didn't know how well a Q3 engine based FPS could handle them and still be a fun FPS (rather than an RPG). ; )

[manoman81]

I'm not a mapper/script writer, so I can't say what the game can handle in general. I will say that my computer can handle a few people running around if a fight breaks out. I do miss civilians in the game. Even JO had some people fighting with you on Bespin. If other Jedi can do the same in JA then I think that any computer that can run JA can stand to have a few other NPCs running around as well.