IG-64 Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Now, I apoligize for any future comments that would be catigorized as "flames", i will try to keep it as clean as possible... I love the JK series, but one thing bothers me, the Q3 engine, its old lets just leave it at that, ive seen their cheats in the lighting (the painted-on lighting effects on hoth) but thats just not enough for me. The saber duals are a contraversial matter, the sabers don't connect, they don't go through the stormtroopers when they die, and the saber movement all together seems sloppy and unorginized. the models look.. erm... the same, the clothes are painted on, there are limits to these things if you use an old engine. heres where the "flaming" comes in, there is no offence to raven or lucas arts, but i think they, and most other game publishers should stop being lazy and make new engines and stop over-using the old ones. There are new ways to make things go together such as calculating exactly where the saber hits and slices the model at certain, un-scripted areas, like when the saber doesn't slice all the way through it would only slice the model in that area (e.g. obi wan in eps 2) and things like lighting, bump maps, reflections and other things that would vastly improve graphics and gameplay. i recently read the review of half-life 2, im not a half-life fan, i've never played the first one, but some things they have acheved with their new engine amazed me, such as their advanced rag-doll effects and thier physics system, and things that they acheved with RS3 such as bump maps, reflections, and all that good stuff. i do realize that is extremely difficult to develop a new engine that can do all these things, but when it is done it rocks the gaming world... I'm not sure exactly where this thread goes, but if its not here then please move it. and exuse me for any spelling problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeto101 Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 haha yeah, i dunno, i think raven/lucas is just tryin to play off their liscence rather then make a revolutionary game with JA. JO for its time was pretty darn good (i think anyways) but JA is a little subpar compared with games like halo and maxpayne 2. They def need a new engine and a new saber combat system. This one will tide me over for awhile, but still, they need somethin that looks/feels like the movies and has a decent engine. The Havoc physics engine would simply be awesome for the starwars universe. (haha imagine slicing through a support column with your saber and it falls over onto a squad of troopers:p ) Sadly though, aside from KOTOR and JO, thers been no extremely exceptional games for starwars in a long time. Back in the day they were crankin out awesome games like DF, JK, Tie Fighter, X-Wing (that entire series rocked), but knowadays, games like roguesquadron, JA, the other horrible movie games and any others that ive forgot (probably for good reason) are just cookie cutter. Hopefully Raven and Lucasarts decide to stop just tryin to milk the liscence for all its worth and make a revolutionary game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Dravis Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 They probably made it for monetary reasons. Also, they already had Q3 engine experience, and could make it faster (and therefore cheaper), and they know that most people that play Outcast WILL get the game whether it has a new engine or not. However, the next game better be a new engine, because Q3 really is getting old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Yeah well, that's all well and good, but keep in mind, every developer that starts an engine from scratch or learns a brand new one has to take a long time to learn it. They have to invest a lot of time and effort into adding all that Star Wars content (especially the Force and Saber which aren't part of most FPS engines). A company like Raven has to cut corners to get their games done. When was the last time you saw them make a game based on an engine they built from scratch? They're not as rich and huge as some. Heck, Id Software seems to stay in business by engine liscensing alone. Companies like that can afford to wait 5 years between game releases. Seriously if JA was using a newer engine chances are you'd either still be waiting for the game, or it would feel much more rushed and unpolished than people are already bashing it for. Plus more people would be complaining how it ran poorly on their systems. Frankly I don't see the big deal in recycling engines so long as the game is good. Most game companies can get away with recycling old engines. Hell, people still play Half Life Counter Strike and similar mods and that's using the ancient Quake 2 engine. Or how about the Sims? They release a new expansion every 6 months it seems, and people eat it up. I'll never understand the gamer mentality that a game is only worthwhile if it forces you to buy a new computer to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeto101 Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 haha the sims?? Man thats the brittney spears of gaming, all the teenie boppers are the ones buyin it. Personally, id rather have a long wait for a decent game. And just cause the engine is new doesnt mean it would run slow on old computers. My friend's 1 gighz with a geforce 3 runs maxpayne 2 noo prob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samus Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Actually, I'm surprised of how good JA looks, concidering it's using the aging Q3 engine. But I should think that Raven has stretched the engine near to it's full potential now, and making another game using the same engine would be foolish. Though, the upcoming Medal of Honour: Pacific Assault uses the Q3 engine as well, and that looks pretty good. Nowhere near HL2 or Doom3, of course, but better than JA. (Of course, the engine has been heavily modified.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 27, 2003 Author Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Yeah well, that's all well and good, but keep in mind, every developer that starts an engine from scratch or learns a brand new one has to take a long time to learn it. They have to invest a lot of time and effort into adding all that Star Wars content (especially the Force and Saber which aren't part of most FPS engines). what did i say about lazyness? Originally posted by Kurgan A company like Raven has to cut corners to get their games done. When was the last time you saw them make a game based on an engine they built from scratch? They're not as rich and huge as some. Heck, Id Software seems to stay in business by engine liscensing alone. Companies like that can afford to wait 5 years between game releases. theres been alot of talk about how raven is not the right developer for the JK series and that the series needs a new developer, but that, like everything else in every other debate on the forums, is not likely to happen. Originally posted by Kurgan Seriously if JA was using a newer engine chances are you'd either still be waiting for the game, or it would feel much more rushed and unpolished than people are already bashing it for. Why rush? I can wait. if people complain about how long its taking, thats their problem, it would all pay off greatly in the end. Originally posted by Kurgan Plus more people would be complaining how it ran poorly on their systems. I'll never understand the gamer mentality that a game is only worthwhile if it forces you to buy a new computer to play it. just look at galaxies. if you have a good enough game then you would be suprised at just how many people would upgrade their computers just for the purpose of playing the game. Originally posted by Kurgan Frankly I don't see the big deal in recycling engines so long as the game is good. Most game companies can get away with recycling old engines. now if that was true then I would have not started this debate now would I? Originally posted by Kurgan Hell, people still play Half Life Counter Strike and similar mods and that's using the ancient Quake 2 engine. Or how about the Sims? They release a new expansion every 6 months it seems, and people eat it up. its pethetic, i know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsaya Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 I recently read the review of half-life 2, im not a half-life fan, i've never played the first one, but some things they have acheved with their new engine amazed me Do you know how long we had to wait for a sequel to Half Life? I sure as hell don't want to wait as long for all the games yet to come. And it isn't necessary at all: a new Engine for each game? What for? HalfLife 1 used the Quake Engine and looked about 50 times better than Quake did. You can improve engines and from what I see Raven improved it a lot. JA sure looks much better than Q3 did. Sure, the difference between JA and JO isn't bug. But didn't they already state they won't use the Q3 Engine again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Whats so pathetic? They are pretty good game (HL is called the BEST COMPUTER GAME EVER!) Who cares about the system? If you took time to learn about it, youll find that it really is a great engine, and extremly customisable. I like it a lot... (haha imagine slicing through a support column with your saber and it falls over onto a squad of troopers ) hmm..... thanks for the idea! Would you mind if i added that to my jk2/ja movie (well, the movie is going to be converted to jedi academy) JA MOVIE check it out... anyways, i like the system a lot, and if it wasnt for a few minor bugs then the game would have taken off! theres nothing wrong with the system... its able to compete with the games right now... the graphics are good (who cares if it looks like jk2?) Now then, it could easily keep up if it was supported a bit better... instead of 1 or 2 patches, maybe they could make a few extra untill the next jedi knight game came out (like half life, counter strike, natural selection...etc..) games like that survive longer. But then again, we have the editing tools (although they arent all released yet) but i guess thats why we dont have many updates. I guess patch isnt the right word... just new levels and soem new game types every few months would keep the game going... What would you like to see??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManaMana Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 New Sith Probe since one post ago here ! They could actually make JA into an expansion... As you say, the programmers are LAZY! Jedi Outcast was great. But Jedi Academy is... somewhat the same game. Shall we give credit for copying a previous game:p ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by Tsaya Do you know how long we had to wait for a sequel to Half Life? I sure as hell don't want to wait as long for all the games yet to come. And it isn't necessary at all: a new Engine for each game? What for? HalfLife 1 used the Quake Engine and looked about 50 times better than Quake did. You can improve engines and from what I see Raven improved it a lot. JA sure looks much better than Q3 did. Sure, the difference between JA and JO isn't bug. But didn't they already state they won't use the Q3 Engine again? HL used the Quake2 engine, not the Quake engine. And I don't think Raven did the improving. JA used the same modified Quake3 engine as EF2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 They shouldn't create a new engine. They should USE a new engine, something like source (please not the doom 3 engine, I don't want to be fighting 1-3 enemies at a time, no matter how good they look). The source engine would be so cool, think about gripping stuff and moving it around (like the gravity gun). All the physics and rag doll (both Havok 2 I believe? Havok 2 can be seen in Max Payne 2). I don't know much about their physics, but if they are as advanced as they seem, I would bet that with some modifications you could code in lightsabers. The main reason the quake 3 engine is old for this (IMO), is not graphics, they look fine to me, what I have a problem with is hitting an enemy but not doing damage. I think the saber combat system needs an overhaul. Think about how cool it would be to actually control the saber with your mouse! Please raven, consider using source or some newer technology to make hit detection and the saber system better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Now then, it could easily keep up if it was supported a bit better... instead of 1 or 2 patches, maybe they could make a few extra untill the next jedi knight game came out (like half life, counter strike, natural selection...etc..) games like that survive longer. But then again, we have the editing tools (although they arent all released yet) but i guess thats why we dont have many updates. I guess patch isnt the right word... just new levels and soem new game types every few months would keep the game going... In reply to the patches comment: I think they would GREATLY increase the life span of the product if they released content in the patches. By content I mean new clothing/heads/hilts etc... Maybe some new maps, but if they just updated with a little new content every month people would love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsaya Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 And I don't think Raven did the improving. JA used the same modified Quake3 engine as EF2. I thought Raven released EF 2 as well? So does it matter what they improves the engine for? All I can say is that JA looks a lot better to me than Q3 did. I think they would GREATLY increase the life span of the product if they released content in the patches. Well, there is no money to be made in a long life span though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by Tsaya I thought Raven released EF 2 as well? So does it matter what they improves the engine for? All I can say is that JA looks a lot better to me than Q3 did. Nope. Ritual developed EF2, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by ig64 there is no offence to raven or lucas arts, but i think they, and most other game publishers should stop being lazy and make new engines and stop over-using the old ones. Ridiculous. In no way are decisions in the software industry (or any major industry for that matter) based on laziness. Do you have any idea how much time, money, and effort are involved with making a video games of this caliber? There are many issues involved, such as budget, people available, resources, time constraints, and so on. Video game engines are extrememly complex and expensive to produce, an even license. Originally posted by ig64 i recently read the review of half-life 2, im not a half-life fan, i've never played the first one, but some things they have acheved with their new engine amazed me, such as their advanced rag-doll effects and thier physics system, and things that they acheved with RS3 such as bump maps, reflections, and all that good stuff. And Half-Life 2 is scheduled for release in April 2004. So to use that engine, a company would have to license it at considerable cost, learn how to use it, then develop a game on top of it. Development alone usually takes two or three years. It might take a almost a year to learn all about the new engine. So that puts us out into 2007. JO came out in 2002. So you want to wait 5 years between games? I don't. Originally posted by ig64 i do realize that is extremely difficult to develop a new engine that can do all these things, but when it is done it rocks the gaming world... The reason why it "rocks the gaming world" is that it doesn't happen very often. The reason why it doesn't happen very often is because of the extensive development time and cost. The reason why most companies license engines is because it is so difficult to develop them on their own and then build a game on top of it. Originally posted by cheeto101 Personally, id rather have a long wait for a decent game. And just cause the engine is new doesnt mean it would run slow on old computers. My friend's 1 gighz with a geforce 3 runs maxpayne 2 noo prob. You are welcome to wait. But I don't want to I have no problem with games using the same engine, as long as they are fun to play. I find JA fun to play. If it is not as advanced enough for you, don't buy it. Wait a few more years for the next one. I'm not willing to wait that long. And new engines and extreme graphics do require higher end machines. a 1 GHz GeForce 3 machine is not that old... Originally posted by ig64 Why rush? I can wait. if people complain about how long its taking, thats their problem, it would all pay off greatly in the end. Or conversely, why wait so long? People can complain all they want about how every detail isn't revolutionary, that's their problem. If JA isn't good enough for you, great, but don't try and screw me out of games I want to play in the process. If you don't want it, don't buy it, leave the rest of us to do what we want. I want to play JA! Originally posted by ig64 just look at galaxies. if you have a good enough game then you would be suprised at just how many people would upgrade their computers just for the purpose of playing the game. And look how incredibly buggy and, to many, boring Galaxies is. It may look pretty, but that does not garruntee a good game. Originally posted by ManaMana As you say, the programmers are LAZY! Your ignorance is staggering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I am not understanding your, "OMGOMGOMG I WANT TEH GRAPHIX PUBLISHERS STOP BNEING LEAZY CUZ I WANT A COOL LOOKING GAME" mentality. It just makes me sick. Does JA look bad? No. Does it look incredible? No. Does it look good? Yes. Is the art well done? Yes. That's the most important part in being visually pleasing, having the art well done. You can have the most advanced engine on the planet and still make the game look like ****. If you like graphics so much, go stare at 3dmark03 all day, and stop playing the GAMES that could get you GAMEPLAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t3rr0r Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by cheeto101 haha the sims?? Man thats the brittney spears of gaming, all the teenie boppers are the ones buyin it. don't go ragging on a game you don't understand. besides, more adults likely buy the sims than teens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 ok, note to everyone, i love JA, i play it all the time, and im not talking about how bad it is, its fine, i'm just trying to make the point of how much better they can make it:D And look how incredibly buggy and, to many, boring Galaxies is. It may look pretty, but that does not garruntee a good game. and on this note, i wasn't talking about the gameplay of galaxies, yes i have played it, and yes it is boring and buggy, i was simply replying to kurgans note on "people having to upgrade their computer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samus Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by Prime And Half-Life 2 is scheduled for release in April 2004. Oh, no! Delayed again? They said we would have it before Christmas! :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by Samus Oh, no! Delayed again? They said we would have it before Christmas! :( exactly, people are looking forward to it because they know its going to be a good game, why? because their spending time on it, thats why it keeps getting pushed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Your ignorance is staggering It just makes me sick don't go ragging on a game you don't understand. besides, more adults likely buy the sims than teens i'm going to ignore any more comments like this so don't waste your time and fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t3rr0r Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by ig64 i'm going to ignore any more comments like this so don't waste your time and fingers. oh no, you're not going to read comments pointed at other people! what ever will i do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by t3rr0r oh no, you're not going to read comments pointed at other people! what ever will i do? because i have some idea of how they feel when you do, so shut up be nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by ig64 exactly, people are looking forward to it because they know its going to be a good game, why? because their spending time on it, thats why it keeps getting pushed back. Actually, it isn't because they are working on it: "Half-Life 2 release date is currently April 2004 due to the recent source code leak according to Valve Software..." - Half-Life 2 Online Originally posted by ig64 i'm going to ignore any more comments like this so don't waste your time and fingers. I did lash out a bit, and I apologise, but since I design software for a living, I sometimes get offended by silly comments like "the programmers are LAZY!" The simple fact is that this couldn't be farther from the truth. Issues other than "they didn't want to do it" or "they only want to make money" come into play during the development of a game. Sure it would be great if every game was revolutionary, but this just isn't possible. There are time constraints, limited budgets, and a finite number of people and resources. All these have to be taken into consideration. Most times a new engine is simply too expensive to create or license or it takes too long to learn how to use it properly. All the developers can do is create the best game they can with the resources they have. Also, companies pay a ton of money for the right to use an engine, and they want to get the most out of their investment. Now, you can decide for yourself whether it is enough or not. I have no problem with people saying what they like and don't like about JA. But I will take issue with incorrect statements about developers. But next time I will try to be more polite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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