Master William Posted November 1, 2003 Author Share Posted November 1, 2003 I don't know about you guys, but on the server I play on, one single red swing and anyone dies. By the way, I've been quite dizzy today, I didn't mean ''The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings don't mean strong blows.'' I meant ''The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings doesn't necessarily mean that it is a strong blow. Unrealistic. And people say JA is realistic. My opinion: sacrifice realism for gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Fisher Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Strong is only powerful if you know how to use it. I have become very adept at using it, and usually kill 15 people to 3-4 deaths. Sure staff/duel is flashy, but is it worh it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 The only problems I see are the almost random hit and block physics. The line isn't set in stone. For example, if you were to saber swing, you should be left open to attack. Although this should be the case, often counter swings are blocked for no reason or just 'miss'. Other times, when you're not attacking, you should be safe from most swings (although not red down hacks or double swings etc.), however, sometimes you just take damage from shots that should have been blocked. The physics basically need standardising. So you can say: If a happens, b should always happen. At the moment thats not the case. This is a major reason why duelling can be lost or won almost randomly. Obviously, I also think duel and staff should have combo limits. They have twice the firepower (2 sabers), no need for 14 points of force and unlimited combo's when compared to single sabers. This means that a player can simply 'hold down attack' whilst trying to bump into someone. Maybe you find this fun, i dunno...I don't. This is where my opinion that duel and staff require much less timing, strategy (from swing slelection) and avoidance than single sabers (althoguh they naturally require some of the above, no where near as much). Finally, Slapnut, your view has to be the most uninformed and ludicrous i've read so far. To say moves are 'unpredictable' is just plain stupid...you think duellers just win by 'luck'? And as for 'awesome swings' of fast styles...well i'm just gonna stop before i start insulting people again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Originally posted by Master William I don't know about you guys, but on the server I play on, one single red swing and anyone dies. What's the saberdamagescale on that server? If it's set to 3, you'll surely kill anyone you hit with a red stance swing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahs Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Well, personally I think that the easiest opponent I could get in a duel is a strong-stancer. They're just too predictable. I'd have a harder time against a worse player using fast stance. But maybe that's just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Originally posted by Jahs Well, personally I think that the easiest opponent I could get in a duel is a strong-stancer. They're just too predictable. I'd have a harder time against a worse player using fast stance. But maybe that's just me Yes you're right, thats just you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted November 2, 2003 Share Posted November 2, 2003 Originally posted by Jahs Well, personally I think that the easiest opponent I could get in a duel is a strong-stancer. They're just too predictable. I'd have a harder time against a worse player using fast stance. But maybe that's just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthCobra Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I can't even belive there's a thread discussing this. NO THE RED STANCE ISNT TOO STRONG! YES THE STAFF IS WAY TOO FN STRONG! If we're gonna debate imbalances lets talk about the new sabers, an how much the single has been wrecked compared to jk2. We have a worthless red an yellow dfa now, the lunge has been overpowered to a one hit kill. The saber damage on that server must be 3 or something. I find it almost impossible to kill anyone with one red swing, where in jk2 most ppl died from 2 good hits. I can hit all 3 hits of a red combo an still have a person standing ... Taking 2-3 hits to finish the job. DO WE THINK RED STANCE IS TOO STRONG! what a crock.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 My comment about "you are wrong..." was directed at Blood Riot. He's the one who said that single saber didn't have unlimited chainable moves (though Comm539's comments lead me to believe he also thinks that Single lacked unlimited chainable combos). In any case, sorry for any confusion there. Do I think Red (Strong) stance is too strong? No. Do I think it's too weak? No. The fact is, the Single Saber is a combination of the three stances, not just one of the three that you're forced to use exclusively (unless you want to be stuck with Fast, in which case you only gave yourself Saber Attack Level 1, which is your own fault!). But some people act as if once you choose a stance you have to use that and only that forever. I swap stances all the time in battle to do the different moves or to confuse my opponent. I think that's what Raven intended for you to do anyway. Also, there's the old "two handed back slash" that does extra damage move... that works for Strong and Medium Stance. Haven't tried to see what the combination does for the other sabers yet... I think the issue we're really getting at with all this is the endless debate started by the old school (ie: JK2) single saber purists fearing that Dual Sabers/Saberstaff "takes no skill" and will "own" their perfected styles they've been working on since JK2. I don't think that needs to be a concern. Just learn the new moves and you'll be fine. But it would be advantageous to learn the other saber types too, so you know what to expect from opponents, because face it... they're available and people are going to use them, whether you want them to or not. Others may disagree, that's fine, but Raven intended for us to use saberdamagescale 2 (outside of Duels, but there I prefer shorter duels anyway) and I find it's well balanced. I don't think Duals or Saberstaff are too strong or too weak either, but, as Goldilocks would say of the baby bear's pourriage... "just right." ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthCobra Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Well I wasnt acutally gonna debate the new sabers here either. I was just tryin to disagree on the RED STANCE being too strong. The staff is far too strong.. Takes little skill to weild and is generally over spammed by EVERYONE! Now I'm not sayin that its not weilded by skilled players or skillfully. But it can kill at random from little bumps an short swings. I dont think the double sabers are as bad, but they do seems to kill ppl randomly often. In J0 1.02 there was a problem with the heavy saber that would cause it to do insane amounts of damage to others from simply gettin poked in the back without even a swing.. And swings killing entirely too easily. I think they've found this same problem with the staff, an partially with the doubles. All I can say is that i desperately hope this is fix'd, not because I cannot handle the new sabers or their moves, but because hardly anyone else can. While a good solution would be to teach everyone HOW TO STOP THIS CRAP! But well.. thats not gonna happen. So raven just needs to fix these new broken sabers a little, then we can all get serious about this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by DarthCobra what a crock.. Wait a second... you assert that the lunge has been 'overpowered' to be a 'one-hit kill,' yet you 'find it almost impossible' to kill anyone with one red swing? Sounds to me like you need to start using lunge more. Honestly, why not complain you don't like the shade of green they chose for Twi'leks while you're at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthCobra Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 My complaint was that someone acutally had the nerv to start a thread about the red stance being too strong. I've seen some pretty stupid threads. But this is one of the stupidest topics yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Well the thing is, "spamming" is subjective. Theoretically you can't really spam any special move because you don't have unlimited mana (unless of course the server de facto gave that to you by setting the regen time to 0). Just because people like to use Staff and Duals doesn't mean they are bad or should be nerfed or toned down. Again, it sounds like another single saber JK2 purist wishing to go back to the "good old days" before the Darth Maul wannabe's took over. Sorry pal but you can't turn back the clock! (if that was an unfair criticism, I apologize). Even back in the JK2 days people were desperate for mods that added dual sabers and the saberstaff, and don't tell me those were perfectly balanced! The fact is the Staff DOES take skill to use. How many people have you seen jump around and miss every single one of their butterflies and katas? I've seen plenty. They're pathetically easy to kill. If you are dying from random swings, check your strategy. I like saberdamagescale 2 because ALL swings have the potential to be deadly. The trick is to block and dodge better. And the moves are still useful because they require different timing, have different speeds, blocks/counters, etc. and use different amounts of mana (or none at all). The most powerful move for the Dual Sabers, the "Saber Barrier" is one of the easiest moves to counter in the entire game. And both the Saberstaff and Dual sabers have twirls, which leave you far more open to attack for a longer period than any special move or kata the single sabers have. Those long drawn out animations are easy to predict and thus easy to counter if you know what you're doing. The single saber moves are usually quicker and leave less openings. They may not be as big on combos (except Fast stance), but they have other strengths and weaknesses. I'm a veteran of the JK1/MotS days, when saber swings killed in 1-2 hits and nobody complained about it (well, very very few). So in my mind, I think that's the way it SHOULD be, and Raven just happens to agree with me (at least in non-Duels), which is cool too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthCobra Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by DarthCobra The staff is far too strong.. Takes little skill to weild and is generally over spammed by EVERYONE! Now I'm not sayin that its not weilded by skilled players or skillfully. But it can kill at random from little bumps an short swings. Im not against 1-2 hit kills. But I am for balance. And Im gonna stick to my it takes little skill to weild the staff. And i hated them in jk2 mods also. I use the double an the staff often, but i prefer single as it has the most control. You guys always get so darn wordy in these threads, and im not one to try to be makin speeches. THE NEW SABERS ARE BROKE!! PERIOD!!! I DO NOT FEAR THEM! That doesnt change the fact that they need fix'n an this thread is about "is the red stance to FN strong". And I am a jk2 vet but a "purist" i think not. Ill go play jk2 if i want jk2. This game is much more of a addon then a new game with most of jk2 intact. So the comparisons an wishing for gameplay to be the same should be expected. What I didnt expect. Was for them to add these new sabers so horribly unbalanced as to make the single the least used saber. And to have a thread here about whether or not the SINGLE RED STANCE IS TO STRONG! END RANT! I'm sorry i said anything at all as usal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 DarthCobra, it might help if you avoided blanket statements. Originally posted by DarthCobra THE NEW SABERS ARE BROKE!! PERIOD!!! That's not a fact, it's an opinion (one clearly not shared by everyone), and typing it all in caps doesn't make your point of view more valid than those who disagree with you. That doesnt change the fact that they need fix'n an this thread is about "is the red stance to FN strong". Actually the thread is about whether or not people think red stance is too strong, though you are correct that complaining about the other saber types is off topic. What I didnt expect. Was for them to add these new sabers so horribly unbalanced as to make the single the least used saber. I'm assuming this was intended to be one contiguous sentence. Again I'm at a loss... you state that you're "not against 1-2 hit kills" but earlier you claimed that the lunge has been 'overpowered' to be a 'one-hit kill.' You also assert (complain) that the staff (and I presume dual sabers as well) require little skill to use. Are you implying that the lunge is difficult to perform? You prefer the single saber "as it has the most control" - does that not imply the staff and dual sabers have less control? Funny, I would assume a style that has less control would be harder to use effectively - thus requiring more skill. Frankly, between all the misspellings, sloppy punctuation, poor grammar and obvious hostility in your postings, it's hard to take you very seriously. Comments like, "this is one of the stupidest topics yet" is not only pointless, but needlessly offensive. You come across as an immature person, simply upset that Jedi Academy isn't exactly like Outcast. raven just needs to fix these new broken sabers a little, then we can all get serious about this game Maybe you need to get less serious about this game? Seriously, it's not worth working up a hissy fit over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Erm... missed your comment earlier babywax regarding the cannonball analogy. My only retort... (um, never mind that a cannonball has about 500 times the mass of a bullet) just suppose you had a cannonball traveling at a bullet's velocity... you're not going to insist it should be less effective at breaking defenses than a slower moving (normal) cannonball? Your candle analogy made more sense, though personally I wouldn't want a light saber stuck into my body for a split second any more than I would ten seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Kurgan yes u are right...i stand corrected. My point was the sabers in my pov are not perfect but the balance is not that bad either. Either way it's old news and this thread is about singel saber red stance. I can't really say it's overpowered... it IS indeed a high damage stance but i've seen the same move cause from a 1 hit 100 dmg kill to just a 1 dmg graze. I can understand the frustration with the vertical swing that connected through all the opponent's body as it's the move i've seen taking more damage in one strike... which only makes my previous point even more valid. I dont know wether it's the saber collision configs or the high ping that causes such discrepancies. Either way... no one can claim the red stance is overpowered... and IF you want to bring other sabertypes into this topic, all others have high, AND I MEAN HIGH, damage output but usually at a higher refire rate. One can also debate on why the slower strike means more damage, in the end, there is no realisitc explanation envolving physics that WILL actually explain the slow being stronger cuz imo, the only reason red is slower is to try to balance things. The greatest advantage single saber has is the versility and the wide range of moves available to it, so keeping the red slower like it was in JO is just a way to make the single has it's cons. If you wanted to go into physics on this one... sure put red damage on blue speed... makes sense right? but imagine gameplay balance... no so good right? Staff deals good damage but has less moves and versility than single... so single has a slower swing for red stance to balance things out. <---- just an example explanation. My conclusion: Red Stance NOT overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by DarthCobra My complaint was that someone acutally had the nerv to start a thread about the red stance being too strong. I've seen some pretty stupid threads. But this is one of the stupidest topics yet. Can you and your rude flames leave this thread? if you think it is stupid, why discuss? Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunafish Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I do not think red is too strong, nor do I think dual or staff are too strong. It honestly seems well balanced to me because there is not one game I have entered yet, where single, dual, or staff is the absolute dominant stance. When I first started playing JA I thought one particular style would be the one everyone used. Much to my suprise though, there is a nice variety of the stlyes on multiplayer. But red seems to be favored when it comes to single saber stances for more skilled players. Not that yellow or blue are ignored by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Strong in this thread the Dark Side is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted November 4, 2003 Author Share Posted November 4, 2003 I'm just saying the red swings are a bit too powerful sometimes. But never mind, there are alot of counters that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Darth Cobra, we get it, the thread sux0rz bla bla it is the worst you've seen, bla bla bla If you haven't got any real comments (yep, all your posts so far are mostly off topic) then please leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 What's really hilarious is there's a guy in a thread right next to this one who's asking why the Staff and Dual are so much more powerful than the Single. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Master William I'm just saying the red swings are a bit too powerful sometimes. And I'm saying it's not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted November 4, 2003 Author Share Posted November 4, 2003 But I say it is Your point being... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Fisher Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Your point being... ? That you both have a different point of view IMO, strong has been weakened, however slightly, ao you cn't kill in one shot. Unless its a server where saber damage has been increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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