Coraith Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by Master William I only consider laming to be when you break server rules. I expect people to follow the server rules at the servers I am admin at, or else they will be warned. If they don't pay attention, they get kicked. If they still come back not obeying the server rules, they get banned. Simple as that. A server has server rules. You follow them, or you get warned, maybe kicked, or perhaps even banned. The people who set the server rules are the gods, basically. If a rule is to have only red colored sabers, then you will either follow it or get kicked. That was just an example, I don't make those kind of rules. Well said, it couldn't be anymore fair and anymore simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff38 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I got kicked the other day from a siege game for running to the elavator in the hoth map and keeping it up so the mercs could not use it to get to the next level. Even though there is a another way to get past the elavator they decided it was easier to kick me than bother using their brains. "stop it griff that's laming", my own team even voted to kick me. I guess I should expect no less with so many children playing the game. I need to find an AGE - RESTRICTED server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 Coraith you do try and take things too literaly don't you? Of course it isn't simply about being called a lamer, it's about the people who use the word and their ideas of playing. Server rules are ther to ensure fair play, or at least they should be there to ensure fair play but unfortunately there are lots of abusive admins out there that create insane rules to ensure their own or clans victory or power. Also picking on my use of the word fear, anyone who read that properly and wasn't trying to argue the opposite as though their life depended on it would see what I meant is I can't just go and play anymore because I may get kicked without warning. The "fear" is "shall I slash that guy or will he kick me if I even attempt it?", it's not true fear and I think in fairness you do know it, you just picked on a minor word. It's simply the concern you can't play anymore because playing now means there is a chance you'll get kicked. Also Coraith, all games have problems such as this and I know that, my point is JA and JO suffer from it on levels that online gamers should not have to deal with. You must see how extreme the rules in JA are compared to other games. Go play BF1942 or Elite Force or Halo and see how they play, then come back to JA and tell me you still think the rules servers have are well founded in any way. Server admins are not Gods, they (we) certainly should not be treated like it either. Luckily I'm one of those who get sick of hearing any sucking up and tell them to just play, I don't wanna hear it. But whilever people run around saying "you're God" you're giving admins an ego boost that always turns to abuse of power. In the end it boils down to you see a map you really like, you go on that server, all is fine, you kill someone but as you blow the final swing they put their saber down. You then get called a lamer and someone else saw the saber down kill. This then results in either a callvote kick which very often succeeds or the admin just kicks out right. You're telling me this is fine on servers? That almost absolutely any server out there is subject to this and I should just avoid them all? Please. You can't honestly believe abuse like that is fine just because a power hungry admin says so. If servers become empty because people refuse to play in places where playing is basically banned then admins do change their ways. It's people like you who give admins the power to do what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 Oh my server will be up tonight, I'll set a time for a change, 8pm GMT. You can connect with /connect wadev.servebeer.com. Anything goes and we'll play what the majority want, be it siege/ctf/ffa. Of course don't forget using the word lame really is banned! You play however you want and ignore anyone who starts complaining, I assure you you won't be kicked. Spawn killing, personal hate and I'd appreciate not hanging around spawn points but you certainly won't be kicked for even doin that. Why? Because we get 5 seconds of invulnerability when we spawn which is more than enough time to do a reverse lunge ^.^ Better set a reminder for myself now to actually put the server up then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Nice to hear about your server, what maps will it use? I don't like the default maps, so... Or are you just gonna use the default ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coraith Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Please WadeV1589 do not get me wrong; Admin abuse winds me up just as much as players who do not follow server rules. I do not wish to make this personal so I will refrain from commenting on some of your assumptions but I will say this, I play on many online games, the reason I like JK games some much is the fact that there are server with rules with fair play in mind. I like the Code of Conduct I argue with you here because I believe it to be a good thing for the game. You do not, and argue your “corner” as well as I argue mine. Just because of the fact that Admin abuse goes on doesn’t not mean it’s a failed concept and should be dropped like a hot brick. Real life examples show us that just because there are “loop holes” in a system does not mean we should abandon said system. I would also like to point out I would argue your point with as much vigour. I believe in your right to FFA but I also believe in the right of the owner over all, i.e. the person/s who pay for the server. As far as I see it there are 4 options players have when considering playing online games. 1. Follow the rules on all servers that they play on. 2. Do not follow the rules and eventually end up being kicked from the server. 3. Play on servers without rules. 4. Do not play at all online. Quite simple really. Ranting here or anywhere else will just prove you like to rant and will almost certainly not change anything. Online game rules and conduct are run and decided by the majority, if the majority of players want all out FFA with no rules then that would be the mainstay on most servers. In JK games the majority of players like rules and fairness. That’s just the way it is, nothing can be done about it. So you have your options, choose wisely and you will be a happier player. I hope you find the servers that you need to enjoy the game along with your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by Master William I only consider laming to be when you break server rules. I expect people to follow the server rules at the servers I am admin at, or else they will be warned. If they don't pay attention, they get kicked. If they still come back not obeying the server rules, they get banned. Simple as that. A server has server rules. You follow them, or you get warned, maybe kicked, or perhaps even banned. The people who set the server rules are the gods, basically. If a rule is to have only red colored sabers, then you will either follow it or get kicked. That was just an example, I don't make those kind of rules. Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop I agree with you, William, players should follow the posted server rules or those stated by a real admin (not some poseur claiming to be admin [and I'm not referring to you William]), or they should leave, no matter how silly, stupid, illogical, and absurd they may think the rules are. And if they think the server rules are silly, illogical, arbitrarily enforced, foolish, and absurd, they should stay away from that server. On the other hand, players who are just that and not that server's admin should not go to a server with no "honor" rules and try to bully people into following some "rules" that they think should be "universal", as in telling people "saber off = peace you f**king noob" , "don't attack with chatbox up or saber off you f**king lamer", etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 The Code of Conduct is a good principle and on servers that follow it honestly I don't mind, if that's all they ask I will follow it provided there is at least some fighting going on. It's those servers where it is abused that I dismiss it. But when I go onto a server that is crowded with people who aren't associated with that server and they're trying to kick people for not followin their rules - which are rarely that of the admin then I don't see how it can be let to go on. I do follow rules most of the time, but I cannot and will not stand for people who call me a lamer because they dropped their saber at the last minute or I kill them before they get in a ship in kotor, it's just plain sad. You argue your "corner" no better than I do mine, we both have different POV's on the situation. Yours is any server with the CoC (I didn't plan that abbreviation...) should be followed where as mine is it should only be followed if it's not being abused. I am sorry to hear that some people out there cannot see the flaws in some server rules and just dismiss them. I enjoy online gaming but find it hard to do it anywhere in JA because of all the insane rules. As for my server, I rarely use the standard games maps, I enjoy kotor, my own map (duh) among others. Like I said, if you name a good one and I don't have it I'll go get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coraith Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I would also like to point out that if I were to come to your server WadeV I would follow your rules without complaint here or anywhere else regardless of the rules being abused or not. That is really my overall point, if I don't like it I can leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by Coraith Personally I think that killing someone who is unarmed is unfair, But why are they unarmed in the first place? They do this on their own accord, not because the game forces them to. Originally posted by Coraith all games have rules, all sports, why? so that everyone has a fair shot at winning. But the gametypes have rules hardcoded so that everyone does have a fair shot at winning. Made up rules such as saber down = peace and calling some force powers or moves lame doesn't make the game any more fair. Calling a bunch of moves and force powers lame limits the number of options available to players (for those who care about being called names). Originally posted by Coraith I will not play on servers that allow saber down kills and chat kills. I agree that on private servers with the rules clearly stated, you should follow them. I will leave those servers and find somewhere else to play. The annoying thing is that some players take these rules and try to apply them on public servers. On these servers, why not keep your saber up and stop chatting all the time instead of demanding that every follow a silly set of rules? Originally posted by Coraith Fact is the JK community is made up mostly of Clans and most Clans use FFA servers with Dueling in mind. This is not wrong, just because Raven didn't see fit to let more than two peps duel on FFA games doesn't mean Clans want to use Duel servers and sit in spec all day long. I have a hard time believing that the community is mostly made of of clans. But that is beside the point. It seems to me that Raven prevents multiple duels to prevent exactly this behavior. If they had allowed an unlimited number of duels on a FFA server, then new players would join and find that there was no one to fight. Since there is only one duel allowed at a time, this should have encouraged people who want to duel to use the Duel gametype, allowing those who want to FFA to use FFA servers. It surprises me when you say that clans don't want to sit around waiting for duels. But this is exactly what they do on these "duel" FFA servers. You end up with two people dueling, and everyone else sitting around with their saber off (so they won't be attacked) so they can just sit around and watch the duel. How is this any different than the Duel gametype? Originally posted by Coraith The Saber Code of Conduct helps to maintain a friendly, respectful attitude on FFA servers were peps want to Duel each other in a fair and skillful way. But I think that it is safe to say that the Saber Code of Conduct has done anything but create a friendly, respectful attitude on the servers. It may have started out with good intentions, but in most cases it has backfired drastically. How is firing racial and derogatory comments at people who kill someone with their saber down creating a friendly, respectful environment? Having people go around to these SC servers and "lame" people is encouraged by having this arbitrary set of rules. People are doing it just to piss them off. It seems to me that the SC is more the cause of the problems, not the solution. Wouldn't a better set of rules be to play on servers that provide gametypes you want to play, and to play the game as discribed by the gametype rules? On top of that, why not just be polite to other people (and there is nothing wrong with some lighthearted trashtalk), and not get abusive? Wouldn't that go farther to providing the friendly, respectful games that people are striving for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coraith Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Well to you Prime I would say, plz read may other posts here on this thread and then visit my Clan server and see the system work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManaMana Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Why are we talking about this? We all know that the most of us here on Lucas Forums is against "laming" (When you break forum rules.), so why do we argue about a thing that the real "lamers" never will see? There is about 5 servers playable out there, and hundreds unplayable... Take contact with the people who runs such servers and tell them to grow up! For me, it wouldn't be fun without force powers. Heck, what a stupid game it should be if you only would use button smashing like that! I like to use my brain, using Force Powers when needed, i hate the thing that they call honour. Maybe it is a dream for them that they should be something special above the rest of the people, the best JA player, IN THE WORLD! Computer games is ment to be fun, not for young minds who thinks that it is for real. Gaming should be like TV, you aren't there, but you are there. This interactivity has made them think that it is for real, actually, if you really think, they actually see it as a part of their life! Poor lamers, whiners etc. who don't know what the world actually is, you're lost, and don't know who you are, grown-up? Or a kid? I think that the most whiners are those who don't wanna leave the safe childhood, or still haven't got thoughts like that . Or actually, i think ALL whiners are people like that. Don't prove yourself trough Computer games, prove yourself through real life! /ManaMana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butt_Whisper Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Why do people use FFA servers for duel servers? It is very misleading to the player who wants to kill kill kill. If the owner/admin of a server wants it to be a mostly dueling server, then why don't they just create a "dueling server" instead of having a FFA server with rules: FFA means Free For All and that translates to anything goes (even breaking unwriiten code of conduct rules) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coraith Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Because once the code comes out an appropriate mod will be made that lets us have as many duels as we like in FFA, this way players can have 5 - 10 duels in the time it would take to have two on a duel server. It’s been carried on over from JK2, and is probably here to stay. Any Clan with the resourced would no doubt have both. To it being misleading, it’s quite simple, if everyone if dueling/watching duels then it is obviously not a FFA in its true sense. Hardly misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_ahlers Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I've been lucky so far. I haven't had any problems with people on my server.(Man I hope I didn't just Jinx myself) As an admin, I don't abuse my power since having people slice me in into 1000 pieces or blowing me up with det packs is the only way i'll get better at the game. There are alot of valid points here. I would hate if I put up a server so people could have fun, and they spent time fighting with each other about rules or treating people with disrepect. There are people who belive in the saber down, no chat kills, no rules etc. I completely agree that players should find a server that best fits their playing style and play there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 I'm liking some of the points some people are making especially the most simple of all "FFA means free for all", such a simple statement but one some admins and players don't get, even people in this thread (1 or 2 anyway out of look how many). If you want to go in with your saber down and do nothing, find a duel server, leave the FFA servers for the rest of us who actually want to play. And I hope to see some of you tonight I want some random carnage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaden X Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 When I was playing JO, I was invited to a duel and I accepted it. In the middle of the duel, the guy opened his chat box and I trained DFAs on him... He started to call me lamer and I was kicked from the server... It's unfair to use that chat box to give a reason to lose a duel and call the winner a lamer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_ahlers Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Back in my Outcast days, I played on a server Called NL (Jedi Master). During the Temple level a Player tried to snipe me a couple of times. I return sniper fire and vaporized him. He called me a Lamer for returning fire and killing him. I thought it was funny how some people can dish it out but not take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by Coraith Well to you Prime I would say, plz read may other posts here on this thread and then visit my Clan server and see the system work. I'm not arguing that these rules don't work anywhere. If your server has mature enough players that people are happy, then great. All I'm saying is that from what I have seen on public servers, these rules have made people less polite and respectful, not more. Just my observation (and many others, form the sound of things around here). But I agree that if the rules are clearly posted for that server, then they should be abided by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 WadeV1589, you're just wasting your time trying to persuade or debate "honor code" followers that their postition is illogical. It's almost like a religion to them, they are convinced that they are "fair" and "skillful" and "honorable", and you are....well, something else ("lame"). You just have to accept the fact that there are a lot of servers that say "Free for All" that aren't. They are run by people who like to duel (usually) but don't like the Duel and Power Duel game types that Raven has provided for them. They use the "Saber Code of Conduct" (right up there with the Ten Commandments, Magna Carta, and Bill of Rights in terms of solemnity, if not Capitalization) to keep "order" on these de facto dueling servers. That's the way they like it and no one is going to change their minds, so save your breath. Your strategy of picking a server because it says "Free for All", is playing a map you like, and is busy, is going to bring you to a lot of these de facto dueling servers. You should join the server as a spectator, and if you see a few people dueling and a lot of people standing around with chat bubbles up, you should leave and never come back. Keep a list of such servers, sort of an Anti-Favorites list, so you wont waste time going back there. But if you see a lot of people fighting and very little chatting going on, add the server to your Favorites list immediately. After awhile your Favorites list will grow, and you should play mostly on your Favorite servers. On a regular basis you should check for new servers to add to your Favorites, but stay away from the Anti-Favorites. You may say "but I shouldn't have to do that, I should be able to go to a Free for All server and free for all". Well, sorry, that's not the way it is, so deal with reality, because those people are not going to change. Another thing you can do is run your own server as you are doing (and as I do) so you can determine the rules (or lack thereof). An even better suggestion is to play on Team FFA servers, which usually aren't pseudo dueling servers in disguise as too many "FFA" servers are. And finally, the best suggestion is to forget FFA and learn to play Capture the Flag (CTF). It's much more challenging and fun than dealing with a bunch of petty made-up "rules" and "Codes" on so-called "FFA" servers that are really dueling servers. CTF servers have generally better-quality players, teamwork, and strategy. They are happily mostly free of "honor codes", and people who are foolish enough to say "lamer" are generally laughed at or ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 I do play CTF and siege quite often, I try to vary what I play as much as possible because I love it all. Sometimes just going in and killing anyone is good (FFA), sometimes I want to work as a team but keep to constant carnage (CTF) and sometimes I want to work as a team to accomplish a goal (siege). JA really does give you the choice of how you want to play something I do love. Some servers I do totally avoid now, I noticed the names of the people on the server and just forget it. I will still visit those servers when those people aren't there though because as I said it's the people who cause these problems. One day you can go in a server and have a great time, the next day you go on the same server and it's hell and you get called a lamer repeatedly. I'm not going to give in to these people who think they can apply a code of conduct to FFA, there are times people rally up to kick those people instead for ruining games and I'll be there when it happens savoring every last minute of it. Just over an hour to go until carnage can start! Not had any map requests so far so I'm gonna go with the few I have. Oh btw I am in the UK so your ping will be much better in the UK and Europe. Can be as low as 60. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop Like Rebels fighting the oppressive, evil "honor" Empire, the true free-for-all players are an outnumbered but tough, hardy, and resourceful bunch of freedom fighters who will never be eliminated. Thats cool, can I quote that. Man I can't believe I used to be an "honor" dork. Although I hunted instead of kicked (most of the time, the main thing that got me was were people interupting duels, I prefer to duel in ffa like alot of folks do, you can't harm the duelers so why bother. I realise there are new people who don't know what the blue glow means, and thats when I would explain it to them, not kick them of the server...sheesh...some of you people are so mean. Not everyone wants to pretend they have honor, most of us who don't are truely honorable in real life, I'm sure, and don't feel we need to pretend do be in a VIDEO GAME , wake up man. Rules ain't got but two things, jack and s***, and jack just left town. Racial slurs, de-womanizing, homophobia...thats the lame stuff. "I got lamed by the enemy" -honor boy "quit yer b***** soldier and pick up that saber and fight for your galaxy" -the unknown soldier can't believe I crawled out of my box for this post, eniaC P.S. nice use of the 5 a's Amidala. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 So everyone knows the stuff I have on my server (30 mins ^-^) go to http://wadev.servebeer.com/ . Poor page I know, not my usual standard but it gets the job done! Contains links to download any files I have in my JA installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 This is to all you guys who insist that there's nothing wrong with honour codes: ISSUE 1 You keep telling us "well why don'tcha go find another server if you don't like it", but answer me this: If I start a FFA server right now, will I be able to FFA without any problems? Or will 9/10 people who log on whine about me "laming" or my lack of honour and their precious rules like saber down = peace? Answer the question. Be honest. Now do you understand what we're talking about? ISSUE 2 saber down = peace destroys the very basis of a FFA. That's the gametype most of us are worried about. FFA means that you go around trying to kill as much as possible before time runs out (or hit the kill limit). Do you not see the problem? Let's say you and I FFA >> Every time you attack, I put my saber down making me untouchable. Every time you hit me when my saber is up, I'll flick it off and run for health. Is that fair? Is that skillful? Is that a FFA? Can you ever score a single point unless *I* let you score? No. You will be at 0 points at the end of the 20 minute map. Now...please try to understand that a FFA with the rule "saber down = peace" IS NOT A FFA. You could just as well host a CTF game and forbid anyone from touching the flag. That's as NOT a game of CTF as saberdown=peezeFFA is NOT a FFA. I've asked you to do this numerous times before and I'm asking it again: If the"FFA server" is not running a game of FFA please say so. You could name your server f.ex: "Sims online with glowing sticks in a galaxy far far away" "RULES: DO NOT USE THE GLOWING STICK OR YOU WILL BE BANNED." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Payne Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 About ISSUE 1 if I create a FFA server with password (that all my friend now) there will be a saber fest, a true FFA, in case I made a public one It will be full of false "Honor code" guys, I mean WTF. We are a competitive community with a very strict honor code that says just 2 things: never insult when Win, and never Whine when loose. Now seeing what "honor" has become thanks to rules like "saber down = peace" I'm thinking seriusly that we must to remove the Honor in our server just no to get known as ones of the bunch of False Honor Guys. Think that we used to be proud of our Honor Code that bassically said FIGHT AS BEST AS YOU CAN. and saber down = dead because anyone with a bit of comon sense will put away his weapon down in the battlefield, specially to chat. Now I have to find a new word to describe our "Honor" in order to not be taken as one of these whinners and fanboys, the real lammers, I mean what can be more lame than chat on a FFA server of a FPS game and also pretend that you are right and you "must" convert all people to your ways. As said before thaey are like a religion, but the're fanatics, and is no good when religion becomes fanatism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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